Looncall
Well-Known Member
But the sun neither rises or sets. That is just an illusion produced by the rotation of the earth.
Where were you educated that you do not know this?
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Your Best Argument for God's Existence
- Thread starter ftacky
- Start date
But the sun neither rises or sets. That is just an illusion produced by the rotation of the earth.
Where were you educated that you do not know this?
Jollybear
Hey
Intuitively yes, i understand. But on a intellectual level, books ARE also printed with variation as well. Theres many books written by different authors that are about the same subject. Of course, those authors are gonna have variation in there style and slant.
Im not assuming that. Mutations are harmful.
Well if its nuetral, then ya, it would not be selected out.
Do you have a source that proves most mutations are neutral?
Its not a change, its all a part of the issues.
Yea, have you?
Ok, tell me what you know?
Also, we dont use God to fill a gap. Wer not arguing from ignorence, wer arguing from what we know of information. Information comes from intelligence. Thats our experience.
Also if you want to play that ploy with this god of the gaps, i can easily flip it back on you and say 'whatever you dont know, just insert into the gap "chance+time+mutations" did it.
loganonekenobi
Member
As i said, an extreme example. I am all for intellectual accountability which is why I try not to make the argument from ignorance fallacy. As has been stated Im not totally against the idea that this universe may have been created. However, if we are to be intellectually honest, we really dont know. I'm okay with admitting that. A theist is generally not..In fact they will say that their god is the creator but others are just made up. I just go one god further.
Jollybear
Hey
Is saying "we dont know"intellectually honest, while saying "we know" is intellectually dishonest?
Because heres the thing, how do you truely know that no one knows?
What ive noticed is that no worldview can be proven (know) but there is some views that are more logical. The God creator view is more logical.
For many reasons. Design in the universe and diverse spiritual experiences.
I say theres many gods, but there is a source God, who is infinite and eternal. The prime reality or prime mover.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
How did it "get made?" It developed over time.
Well, because I have to trust mine, for starters, because it's what I have. Also, I've been educated to some degree on the subject of logic and reason.
I didn't personally invent logic and reason. Human beings developed it, based on the conditions of the world we live in.
Jollybear
Hey
Ok, how did it develop?
Ok, so should i trust mine and not yours because "its what i have"?
Ive been educated on logic and reason too. My logic leads me to a different worldview then yours. So should i trust your logic over mine or should you trust mine over yours?
And how did they develop it?
Also what IS logic?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Human prefrontal cortex: evolution, development, and pathology. - PubMed - NCBI
Primate prefrontal cortex evolution: human brains are the extreme of a lateralized ape trend. - PubMed - NCBI
THE BRAIN FROM TOP TO BOTTOM
The Neurobiology of the Prefrontal Cortex
You haven't got much of a choice.
You've been educated on logic and reason in an academic environment, or .... ?
You have no idea what my worldview even is. Evolution isn't a worldview.
QUOTE="Jollybear, post: 5948650, member: 21529"]
And how did they develop it?
You should probably take a philosophy class for the answers to that. There's a lot of ground to cover there.
Philosophy News | What is Logic?
Jollybear
Hey
So, it just evolved by unintelligent forces? Gotcha.
Also, if your brain evolved from unintelligent forces, would it then be intelligent to trust it?
Actually i do, i can trust your frontal lobe or mine. Should i trust mine?
Logic is gonna be different in a adademic environment vs just reading it from a book by yourself? Logic is logic, no matter where you learn it. THATS logic too, lol.
Yea, your worldview is NO God.
Evolution isnt a worldview? What is it then?
No, im not asking you because i dont know what logic is. Im asking because i want to see if you know what it is.
So, what is it?
I am not talking of a bunch. I am talking of one. So, tell me how it is impossible for a single unplanned error to actually make a better cake.
Nope. As I showed you, an unplanned error can improve the recipe. Likely? Nope. Possible? Yup. There is absolutely nothing that prevents an undesigned error to improve a product. And this is because improvements are always possible, and a random error to hit in the area has probability bigger than zero.
Unless you are in denial of the obvious, of course.
Why not? If beneficial changes are possible, and errors can strike anywhere, then errors can strike so that a beneficial change is made. It is a simple probability theory fact.
It depends, if that change increases information, as it is obvious that it can for what we have seen, then it can very well account for the complexity we observe today in DNA. Your design is simply the accumulation of errors.each error building on the previously selected one in a chain that very well explain the complexity of life today, starting from a very simple replicator with almost no complexity at all.
By the way, this random generation of errors followed by a selection according to some fitness function that selects some and not others, is the basis of genetic programming in computer science. In this case, the computer scientists do not design the end solution, they let the errors happen, be selected by a stupid unconscious function, until you have a possible solution. No design needed.
But this is biology 101 since 150 years. Or do you think all species have been instanciated indipendently from each other? 100 millions of them?
I think it is vastly more probable that the ancient book that makes you believe that, might not be entirely accurate.
Ciao
- viole
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
It evolved over time.
I'm not sure this question makes sense.
My heart evolved from unintelligent sources, as did my kidney, liver, fingers, toes, etc. I trust that they will do what they're supposed to do, yes.
You could trust the collective knowledge accrued by human beings over our time on this planet.
Pardon?
Logic is logic. There's just a lot to it critical, logical thinking that is covered very well in philosophy courses. Logic isn't just whatever makes sense to each of us personally.
There is much more to my worldview that "no god."
No, it isn't a worldview any more than gravity is a world view. It's just a description about the way something in the world works.
LOL
Jollybear
Hey
The difference is that your toes, heart, ect do the same as mine. But, your brain and my brain made two different conclusions on God. So one of our brains did not do what it suppose too. So, should i trust my brain or your brain?
Which is what?
Are you telling me you dont know what logic is? If you knew you wouldnt need to keep saying take a course. Im not taking a course, sorry. Im asking you a questiin if you know what it is? If so, what is it?
Right, no God, plus unintelligent forces made it all, lol.
Ok, well, God is not a worldview either. GOD is a description to explain all the design and order we see in the world.
You got that right.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
My heart doesn't necessarily work the same as yours does. I have a heart murmur, do you?
All the knowledge we have obtained since we started looking for it, and everything that been systematically tested multiple times, by multiple independent thinkers and researchers.
Some of those things are the rules of logic and critical thinking.
Why do you need someone to tell you what logic is? Did you look at the links I provided?
I'm not entirely sure you know what a worldview is. My worldview is rooted in humanism.
Yes, I know.
When you can demonstrate that any god(s) exist, please let me know.
Yes, I know what logic is. I have been educated on the subject at a post secondary institution. What I'm telling you is that I am not going to give you a course in logic, as it is far too complex a subject to get into here and the thread is not about a course on logic.
You got that right.
I'll tell you what logic isnt; it isn't "Well it makes sense to me, so it's true."
Jollybear
Hey
Heart murmur? No. But, if your heart isnt working right, how do you know your brain is? Our feet work the same im sure, so, should i trust my brain or yours?
Sure. Why not.
Briefly. I wanna keep it simple. The true sign of intelligence is someone that can take a complicated subject and pound it into simplicity.
Why is humanism your worldview?
Do i need to demonstrate to you that i exist? Or is it reasonable to believe i do based on the information being typed to you?
Likewise, design, order and information in the world indicates a creator. The creator itself dont need to be demonstrated.
I didnt ask you for a course in logic. I asked you what it is. You interpret that to mean i want a course? No, im asking you for a simple description.
I agree with that.
So, there being no God to you based on that making sense to you, does not make that true.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I've had scans taken from my brain. So far, so good.
Ummm ... okay?
Go start a thread about logic then.
Because I think it is the view that results in the greatest amount of well-being and happiness for everyone on the planet.
You? No.
God(s)? Yes.
Human beings demonstrably exist, so the claim is ordinary and testable.
God(s) do not demonstrably exist, so the claim is extraordinary and potentially testable. Yet, nobody has managed to demonstrate the existence of any god(s) as of yet.
Of course the creator needs to be demonstrated, since your positing it's existence.
We already know humans exist and design things. We don't know the same thing about god(s).
You should read what I said again, you're confused about it. What I said was that it's a complicated, in-depth topic.
Demonstrate a god exists, and I'll believe in that god. Simple.I agree with that.
So, there being no God to you based on that making sense to you, does not make that true.
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Jollybear
Hey
So, should i trust your brain or my brain when it comes to Gods existence?
You seam perplexed?
Only if you contribute.
Ohhhhhh, so let me get this straght, we theists get accused of having faith because its comforting. Then when we deny thats the reason, its not accepted. But here the real beans are being spilled out. You believe in the worldview of humanism because its the most comforting. Its not based on intellectualism, its based on emotionalism.
Thanks for the admittence.
Humans yes, but me to you? Nope. I have not been demonstrated to exist to you. Yet you believe i exist. You have faith i exist. You are going against your principles. You should not be having faith i exist before its demonstrated to you that i exist.
Oh no, it has not been tested that i exist to you. No sir yee.
Theres lots of testimony experiences of God. Millions actually. Just look at NDEs. Do you believe dreams exist? Dreams havent been physically demonstrated to exist.
Do dreams need to be demonstrated? My last dream was a snake bite. Do i need to demonstrate that in order for it to be true?
If we see the same hallmarks of order, design and information in nature, is it such a stretch to infer a designer?
And like i said, brilliant people who are very well informed and learned on a topic can take a complicated topic and pound it into simplicity. So, lets test how brilliant you are. Come on, what is logic? You took a course after all. Should be EASY to answer.
Demonstrate a god exists, and I'll believe in that god. Simple.
I got a question. If hypothetically i did demonstrate God exists, and this God told you he wanted you to be his slave, would you say yes or no?
alright, I am bad in astronomy. The people will see the sun rising from the west. Probably as mentioned in the video the earth will go the other way round.
Jollybear
Hey
Well, just one error decreases the odds of making a better recipe cake. But many errors increases the odds. But one good error out of many bad errors? Its still hard to believe it can happen.
But, lets say it happens.
So, heres the original recipe for sponge cake. Ill post just the ingrediants for simplicity.
6 large eggs
1 cup granulated sugar
1 cup all-purpose flour
1/2 tsp baking powder
Now, making copies upon copies upon copies of this for box mixes, we will assume a human copies it instead of a machine, that way we can get some errors going on. Ok, what would happen is the same thing i showed you above when i typed out my paragraph real fast. Eventually it destroys everything. So, wed need many good errors to happen just to fix the destruction before we can even add further information or further parts to the recipe.
So, check this out, ill type as fast as i can again >
6 larfr egg
I cup granuliTed sugar
1 cup all purpose flour
1/2 tsp baking powder
Now try again.
6 large eggs
1 cip granulated sugar
1 c up all purpose flour
1/2 tsp bakibf powxrr
You see? It dont seam to be making much headway.
Let me try again
6 large eggs
1 cup grabu lated sugar
1 cup all purpo se foour
1/2 tsp bakinf powde t
Still isn't adding more information or useful ingrediants to the recipe.
Hell, let me go bazurk fast.
6 largge eghs
1 cup granulafred sugar
1 cup all puprbdde floyr
1/3 tsp baking powfsr
Still, nothing usefull. It only destroys it.
Id agree with that based on my experiment above.
I might be in denial of it. But, lets say in the experiment above the word "1 tps coco powder" got added to the cake mix and that got naturally selected in because people liked the cake having a chocolatey flavor. Those words to "hit" like that by accident would take a very long time. But, not only that, but by the time they hit, the whole recipe would have had so many errors, it probably would not be a cake recipe anymore. Unless there was a self correction going on for bad or nuetral errors, thus making it go back to being a cake recipe.
But heres the kicker. If theres a correction going on, doesn't that imply intelligence?
Also none of these errors tskes into account the origin of the cake mix, a human mind or cook invented this cake mix.
Ok, i have never made this point yet, but here it is: lets say the DNA is at the begining and its simple, not complex. Now, errors and natural selection take place. Isnt natural selection IN A SENSE intelligence? Because it seams to know what is best designed for the environment.
But don't the scientists (a.k.a intelligence) program the computer selector? Its still programed.
But this is biology 101 since 150 years. Or do you think all species have been instanciated indipendently from each other? 100 millions of them?
I think kinds or families came out of eachother.
This is just my interpretation of the bible, others interpret different and thus believe the same as you.
loganonekenobi
Member
Logic is an great tool. It can help you think in an orderly fashion. What it cannot do is give actual evidence. You can look at the book written on logic by Emmanual Kant to fact check this. We have noticed that the universe is under no obligation to make sense to us. Just because something seems "logical" does not make it true. As I have said in other threads, this is the argument (from ignorance) that seems to turn most people to belief. It's amazing that when i stated this, many claimed this was a weak argument to start belief from.
The various religions cannot all be true since each makes exclusive claims that exclude all others. Yet spirtitual experience seems to hit every where. So again, there might be a creator but not one that adheres to any specific faith. THen again it may just be what the human brain does at times. logically which is more likely? With the evidence we have i'm placing my bet on the idea of no god.or at least that we cannot know for sure.
I feel it is a good quality to admit what I dont know. However, trying to convince me with only logic will not work. You need evidence not ignorance.
Your fallacy is based on a misunderstanding of what an occurence of several errors mean. And you neglect a simple fact: errors that destroy things disappear. The recipe is thrown away and the old one is restored. Errors that improve things REMAIN, until the old recipe is replaced by the new that oncorporate the “error”.
It is not like you have a bunch of errors and then an improvement. Event though that would be still possible, the probabilities would be astronomically low.
No. The trick is: if one (improbable yet possible) error improves the product, then, unlike bad errors, that error REMAINS. It is naturally (in case of animals) or artificially (in case of cakes) selected, but the end result is a new recipe that incorporates the error and replace all the others that don’t have it. It will lose its ontology of error and will become the new standard.
The fact that good errors remain is central. They are automatically selected by randomly improving things. And better things tend to substitute the bad ones. And that persistence is not random anymore.
And once the new recipe plus error become the new standard, you are ready for the next lucky strike, maybe after a long time of stasis. Which will also remain, and become the new standard. And so on.
Wait long enough and you will have a product that its vastly better than the original, even though it was not designed at all.
Again, this is the essence. And logically it is flawless.
Ciao
- viole