Your Suffering

[Jainarayan]

There is no essential difference between Abrahamic and Dharmic religions.

That ends it right there. No further communication is possible.

 

[Trailblazer]

That ends it right there. No further communication is possible.

You ripped that right out of context. Of course there is a difference between these religions, but when it comes to humans being responsible for their own suffering, there is no difference.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Blaming does not always entail judgment.

If there is an absence of judgment, how is there blame?

I see him blaming himself in the sense that he holding himself responsible for his own suffering, if he suffers.
I mean if he has the ability to end his suffering and he still suffers then he must be to blame for not doing what is necessary to end his suffering. This is logic.

Well since you said, "This is logic," I must be wrong.

Accepting responsibility =/= blaming oneself.

I accept responsibility for my behavior. Am I blaming myself for how I behave?

I accept responsibility for my decisions as a moderator. I'm I blaming myself for my decisions?

 

[Trailblazer]

If there is an absence of judgment, how is there blame?

Accepting responsibility =/= blaming oneself.

I accept responsibility for my behavior. Am I blaming myself for how I behave?

I accept responsibility for my decisions as a moderator. I'm I blaming myself for my decisions?

The context is I see him holding himself responsible for his own suffering, if he suffers.
You are right that there is no blame unless there was a fault or wrong.

blame
assign responsibility for a fault or wrong.
blame means - Google Search

I accept responsibility for what I am responsible for, like my job.
I disagree that we are all responsible for all our suffering.
I think it is highly arrogant to think we have that much power to prevent all our own suffering if only we were more detached or more of something else we should be, like closer to God.

"I never suffer because I am detached" or "I never suffer because I am close to God."
If you cannot see how arrogant that is I cannot help you. Hint: It is all about me and how great I am, what I have achieved.

 

[SalixIncendium]

The context is I see him holding himself responsible for his own suffering, if he suffers.
You are right that there is no blame unless there was a fault or wrong.

blame
assign responsibility for a fault or wrong.
blame means - Google Search

I accept responsibility for what I am responsible for, like my job.
I disagree that we are all responsible for all our suffering.
I think it is highly arrogant to think we have that much power to prevent all our own suffering if only we were more detached or more of something else we should be, like closer to God.

"I never suffer because I am detached" or "I never suffer because I am close to God."
If you cannot see how arrogant that is I cannot help you. Hint: It is all about me and how great I am, what I have achieved.

Good to see you're catching up.

Your eyes appear to be rolling. Who is responsible for that?

 

[wandering peacefully]

"I never suffer because I am detached" or "I never suffer because I am close to God."
If you cannot see how arrogant that is I cannot help you. Hint: It is all about me and how great I am, what I have achieved.

I guess I am having a hard time trying to figure out why you believe it is arrogant to be able to take responsibility for one's own feelings or suffering and finding ways at being successful at reducing the level of suffering in our own lives instead of blaming someone or something else for that suffering? Who do you believe is responsible for your suffering if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Jainarayan]

I guess I am having a hard time trying to figure out why you believe it is arrogant to be able to take responsibility for one's own feelings or suffering and finding ways at being successful at reducing the level of suffering in our own lives instead of blaming someone or something else for that suffering? Who do you believe is responsible for your suffering if you don't mind me asking?

I too would like to know who is responsible for our suffering if it’s not our attachment to this world. It’s certainly not God according to almost all Hindu sects. Buddhism is non-theistic, so who’s to blame there? We could say it’s our karma, which it is to an extent. It’s the results of our actions, and even thoughts and desires, even if we don’t act on them. It’s not unlike when Jesus said if you look at a someone with lust you committed adultery in your heart. But our karma also bears good results. So it’s not entirely karma. All this nips in the bud any resemblance to Abrahamic religions.

I too would like to know why it’s arrogant to think we have control over our suffering. Again, God doesn’t inflict punishment. Divine punishment is simply not a thing in Hinduism. Special grace from God or Goddess, yes. Punishment and suffering, no. Only I can decide how much attachment I have to things in this world. As I mentioned, my dog left us the other week. His sister is still with us but she is 12 years old and has some health issues. Because my boy got sick and deteriorated so rapidly, and other pets have left also, I fear and dread the day my girl leaves us. That’s the attachment I have, which causes me pain. I’m nowhere near enlightenment but I work hard at remembering my beliefs. So if I don’t have control, who does?

So, I don’t see any arrogance at all, not even to say we are close to God or even we are God ourselves. The Upanishads make it quite clear we are non-different from Brahman...aham brahmāsmi “I am Brahman”, tat tvam asi... “you are that” (Brahman) and several others. Though Brahman is technically not “God”. God is a reflection of Brahman, as a writer (I think it was Adi Shankara) put it, on the mirror of māyā. I think it’s the drummed-in “must be humble” paradigm of Abrahamic religions, and the absence of feelings of unworthiness in Dharmic religions that people have trouble understanding.

 

[Trailblazer]

I guess I am having a hard time trying to figure out why you believe it is arrogant to be able to take responsibility for one's own feelings or suffering and finding ways at being successful at reducing the level of suffering in our own lives instead of blaming someone or something else for that suffering? Who do you believe is responsible for your suffering if you don't mind me asking?

Not everyone can find ways to alleviate their suffering, so to imply that people who suffer don't have to suffer is the same as saying it is somehow their fault that they are suffering.

Why do you think somebody has to be responsible? Sometimes we are responsible for our own suffering, if we choose to suffer for a cause or because we love someone. No human is all-knowing or all-wise so we will always make some choices that result in suffering. Are we responsible because we made a personal choice and suffered as a result? But just because we are not responsible that doesn't mean that someone else is responsible, sometimes nobody is responsible.

Some suffering is the result of poor decisions we make when we should have known better, such as driving drunk and getting into an accident, and we are responsible for that suffering because we have free will to choose. Other suffering comes to us as the result of the choices others make that affect us, and since we have no control over other people so we are not responsible for that suffering. Any other suffering we are compelled to endure and it is brought about my living in a material world, which is the source of all suffering that is not caused by human free will choices.

How are we responsible for suffering that comes about as the result of a disease such as cancer, or a serious auto accident that causes permanent injuries Are we responsible for suffering that comes about as the result of a violent crime such as a rape? Are we responsible if we suffer because we lost a loved one, a human or an animal? Are we responsible if we suffer because someone murdered our mother or our child?

There are various reasons why some people suffer more than others from the same life situations; not everyone is the same because not everyone has the same childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, or present life circumstances. Moreover, not everyone has the same resources to turn to, such as the social support of family and friends or a counselor to help them.

I cannot imagine anything more cruel than judging someone because they are suffering by telling them that their suffering is avoidable. When people say "if only you did x or y you would not be suffering" what they are really saying is "if only you did what I did then you would not be suffering." I consider this arrogant. People who are suffering need our compassion, not our judgment. We should try to understand why someone is suffering and try to help them alleviate their suffering.

 

[Deeje]

I have recently discovered long distance hiking; spending many days alone in the wilderness, climbing up and down mountains, covering hundreds of miles, surviving on whatever I can carry on my back. At times, this self imposed suffering (try walking 20 miles with shin splints) can be nearly unbearable. I suffer in this way because that is the price you sometimes have to pay, if your goal is to experience locations that are not accessible without a helicopter. The solitude strips away all the stress and pressure associated with the hustle and bustle of scratching out a living. Instead, you can experience the world in a way that is simple, natural. When you have no cell service, no internet, no noise, no human contact, it's amazingly refreshing. A cold drink of clean, filtered stream water tastes completely different after walking 15 miles in 100F Arizona heat, than a glass of water from your fridge, sitting on the couch with the A/C blasting away. One experience you don't even consider, and the other is literally the best part of your day. With that in mind, I am obviously responsible for this suffering. I'm planning a 230 mile 14 day trip on the Arizona Trail in October as we speak. I know suffering is inevitable and I'm looking forward to it!

How do you get help if something goes wrong? Do you at least carry an EBIRB?

 

[Deeje]

In reading through the thread, it appears quite a few of those that responded equate pain, be it physical or mental, with suffering. In other words, it appears to me that some of you find pain to be synonymous with suffering.

As I see it, pain is a sensation. One has nerve endings and emotions, so as a human, pain is probably inevitable.

But is suffering inevitable? Suffering is a reaction to that sensation that, in my opinion, is a result of attachment to that sensation.

Is it possible to have the sensation of pain, but not be attached to it and, as a result of that detachment, not subject oneself to the reaction we call suffering?

There is a parable in Buddhism that makes reference to two arrows. In the presence of misfortune, two arrows fly one's way. One is inevitably struck by the first arrow, and there is pain. If one is struck by a second arrow, there is even more pain. The moral of the parable is that the second arrow is a reaction to the first, that the first arrow is inevitable, but the second arrow is avoidable.

In my view, pain is the first arrow, and suffering is the second arrow. In other words, pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

What are your thoughts on this?

Interesting take on pain and suffering there....
But why do we have pain receptors in the first place? What is our first response to pain? What does pain accomplish when it is fleeting, as opposed to how much it weighs us down when it is chronic and ongoing?

What is our natural response to pain? Is it welcomed or is it lamented? Is suffering really a choice?

IMO, how we deal with pain is very individual, because pain thresholds are different for each individual. I have a friend who’s threshold of pain is so low that a mild case of indigestion can make him feel as if he is having a heart attack. He must go to hospital though because he cannot tell the difference and a heart attack could well be occurring. It is a constant worry.

Others who are born without pain receptors are constantly making sure that they have not damaged themselves in some way as they have no way to detect damage to a body part, but at least external wounds are detectable...internal ones are not.

So pain is not altogether a bad thing, whereas suffering can be a continual drain on the mind, body and emotions.

Can people exercise ‘mind over matter’? Yes, but it has to be taught. It does not come naturally as any parent who has a little one who has hurt themselves will attest. Animals too experience pain and suffering and no one suggests that these can be taught to control their suffering.

So I can see that pain has a place and an important role in maintaining health and well being.....but suffering is what we see when situations have no solution and people are burdened down by what they see as a hopeless situation. This is why I believe that suffering can be ameliorated by a spiritual hope for a future permanent cure and relief from all suffering...physical, mental and emotional. Whatever form that hope takes, is their only way to endure the present suffering in order to to gain that future relief.

 

[Moonjuice]

How do you get help if something goes wrong? Do you at least carry an EBIRB?

Good question Deeje. I carry a Garmin InReach GPS, with an SOS button. A little bit of an upgrade from a normal EPIRB beacon. It allows for satellite based text communication (the wife insisted). It has coverage just about anywhere in the world, even the bottom of the Grand Canyon. The SOS button gets you a helicopter rescue if needed. Same precautions folks take when doing really long trials like the Appalachian Trail or the Pacific Crest Trail etc. Here's a link to a portion of last years hike I really enjoyed - the Grand Canyon:

 

[syo]

Why do you suffer?

Who is responsible for your suffering when you do suffer?

Who has the ability to end your suffering?

Confusion. Been there. I ended my suffering when I see things clear.

 

[Trailblazer]

Good question Deeje. I carry a Garmin InReach GPS, with an SOS button. A little bit of an upgrade from a normal EPIRB beacon. It allows for satellite based text communication (the wife insisted). It has coverage just about anywhere in the world, even the bottom of the Grand Canyon. The SOS button gets you a helicopter rescue if needed.

I sure wish I'd had one of those when I found myself stranded at the top of the mountain my husband and I had hiked to back in the mid 1980s but such technology did not exist back in those days. I kept waiting for the forest rangers but they never came, so eventually we made our way back down the mountain.

 

[Deeje]

Good question Deeje. I carry a Garmin InReach GPS, with an SOS button. A little bit of an upgrade from a normal EPIRB beacon. It allows for satellite based text communication (the wife insisted). It has coverage just about anywhere in the world, even the bottom of the Grand Canyon. The SOS button gets you a helicopter rescue if needed. Same precautions folks take when doing really long trials like the Appalachian Trail or the Pacific Crest Trail etc. Here's a link to a portion of last years hike I really enjoyed - the Grand Canyon:

Thank you for that...I don’t have to worry about your safety in those excursions now. I hope you enjoy them.....nature is healing and invigorating. We need to get lost in it more often I think.....Covid is not lurking out there....snakes and other critters maybe though....how do you deal with those dangers?

 

[wandering peacefully]

I too would like to know who is responsible for our suffering if it’s not our attachment to this world. It’s certainly not God according to almost all Hindu sects. Buddhism is non-theistic, so who’s to blame there? We could say it’s our karma, which it is to an extent. It’s the results of our actions, and even thoughts and desires, even if we don’t act on them. It’s not unlike when Jesus said if you look at a someone with lust you committed adultery in your heart. But our karma also bears good results. So it’s not entirely karma. All this nips in the bud any resemblance to Abrahamic religions.

I too would like to know why it’s arrogant to think we have control over our suffering. Again, God doesn’t inflict punishment. Divine punishment is simply not a thing in Hinduism. Special grace from God or Goddess, yes. Punishment and suffering, no. Only I can decide how much attachment I have to things in this world. As I mentioned, my dog left us the other week. His sister is still with us but she is 12 years old and has some health issues. Because my boy got sick and deteriorated so rapidly, and other pets have left also, I fear and dread the day my girl leaves us. That’s the attachment I have, which causes me pain. I’m nowhere near enlightenment but I work hard at remembering my beliefs. So if I don’t have control, who does?

So, I don’t see any arrogance at all, not even to say we are close to God or even we are God ourselves. The Upanishads make it quite clear we are non-different from Brahman...aham brahmāsmi “I am Brahman”, tat tvam asi... “you are that” (Brahman) and several others. Though Brahman is technically not “God”. God is a reflection of Brahman, as a writer (I think it was Adi Shankara) put it, on the mirror of māyā. I think it’s the drummed-in “must be humble” paradigm of Abrahamic religions, and the absence of feelings of unworthiness in Dharmic religions that people have trouble understanding.

It is a different way of experiencing life for certain. Loss is still difficult for everyone but the Dharmics view of accepting loss as being part of existence seems to make it a bit easier. I'm not a believer in the religious aspects of either form but I can appreciate the more inclusive and holistic ideas of the Dhamics. And certainly I appreciate the realization we are the only one's responsible for how we view and respond to all of life's experiences. Hope you can remember the joy your dog brought you and hope you feel peaceful soon.

 

[wandering peacefully]

Not everyone can find ways to alleviate their suffering, so to imply that people who suffer don't have to suffer is the same as saying it is somehow their fault that they are suffering.

Why do you think somebody has to be responsible? Sometimes we are responsible for our own suffering, if we choose to suffer for a cause or because we love someone. No human is all-knowing or all-wise so we will always make some choices that result in suffering. Are we responsible because we made a personal choice and suffered as a result? But just because we are not responsible that doesn't mean that someone else is responsible, sometimes nobody is responsible.

Some suffering is the result of poor decisions we make when we should have known better, such as driving drunk and getting into an accident, and we are responsible for that suffering because we have free will to choose. Other suffering comes to us as the result of the choices others make that affect us, and since we have no control over other people so we are not responsible for that suffering. Any other suffering we are compelled to endure and it is brought about my living in a material world, which is the source of all suffering that is not caused by human free will choices.

How are we responsible for suffering that comes about as the result of a disease such as cancer, or a serious auto accident that causes permanent injuries Are we responsible for suffering that comes about as the result of a violent crime such as a rape? Are we responsible if we suffer because we lost a loved one, a human or an animal? Are we responsible if we suffer because someone murdered our mother or our child?

There are various reasons why some people suffer more than others from the same life situations; not everyone is the same because not everyone has the same childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, or present life circumstances. Moreover, not everyone has the same resources to turn to, such as the social support of family and friends or a counselor to help them.

I cannot imagine anything more cruel than judging someone because they are suffering by telling them that their suffering is avoidable. When people say "if only you did x or y you would not be suffering" what they are really saying is "if only you did what I did then you would not be suffering." I consider this arrogant. People who are suffering need our compassion, not our judgment. We should try to understand why someone is suffering and try to help them alleviate their suffering.

Everyone suffers is the point. How we choose to deal with that suffering is our responsibility.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Why do you suffer?

Who is responsible for your suffering when you do suffer?

Who has the ability to end your suffering?

Life circumstances.

It depends.

God, after I die.

 

[Trailblazer]

Everyone suffers is the point. How we choose to deal with that suffering is our responsibility.

Everyone suffers but clearly everyone does not suffer equally. As adults we are responsible for how we deal with our suffering unless we are mentally impaired in some way.

Unless you believe we have free will, you cannot say that we can choose how we deal with our suffering. I only mentioned that because many atheists do not believe humans have free will, but rather that our life and choices have been predetermined. In that case we cannot choose how we deal with our suffering.

I believe we have free will to make choices, but what we are able to choose is constrained by many factors, including childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. I do not believe in one-size-fits-all because humans are very different in their abilities and capacities.

 

[Trailblazer]

Life circumstances.

Ditto.

 

[Jainarayan]

Hope you can remember the joy your dog brought you and hope you feel peaceful soon.

Thank you. I know he’s still hanging around... for a while at least.