You're trans-...what?

[1137]

Did you fall and bump your head or something? You know me and you know I've been on this forum for years. If you don't want to talk about it, fine. But I just don't get why you bothered to bring it up in the first place.

Now, even though you don't want to talk about it, I'm going to respond to your comments about it:

For the last time,that statement was for shadow wolf. Please at least TRY common sense. Since you've obviously fallen back to trolling I'll respond to the rest of your post when I'm more prepared for it.

 

[1137]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...nticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

A study saying men and women are different is one I'm surprised we needed. I also didn't see any info on transgender individuals, but that could be my oversight so let me know!

 

[1137]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...nticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

While we're on studies, here's a relevant one showing that sex reassignment surgery increases risk of suicide, need for psychiatric intervention, etc. I just wish more therapists like shadow wolf's would drop the post modern crap and start caring about their patient's futures.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

 

[Shadow Wolf]

While we're on studies, here's a relevant one showing that sex reassignment surgery increases risk of suicide, need for psychiatric intervention, etc. I just wish more therapists like shadow wolf's would drop the post modern crap and start caring about their patient's futures.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

I thought you didn't want to discuss this again? You post that one study, I can post 10 that show the opposite (some of them even from the same database). I can even post studies that account for things like suicide rate (which are, in total, much lower post-op than pre-op), and continued psychiatric intervention (not everyone likes or accepts us, and many wish us hateful things - continued therapy after surgery is also encouraged).
You are also using only numbers, where I can draw on my own anecdotal evidence and the experience of others. You're looking at a group that largely and mostly speaks of not even wanting to live, of having dull, empty, and meaningless lives of just enduring and going through with the motions, and being miserable wrecks to becoming more positive, more lively, more happy, and even in many cases more healthy (many surgeons and even endocrinologists will require overweight patients to loose weight, but many do it on their own and become healthier as they become happier and begin to care more about themselves and take better care of themselves).
Like it or not, you just do not have the background, knowledge, or experience that I do with this subject. I've literally been studying it my entire life. Studies like this one you posted are few and far between, much like the few studies that support the idea homosexuals can change their sexuality and be happy and content about it, despite the numerous other studies that account for those studies only looking at a short-time frame and when the time frame is extended the results are that patients are worse off than before they started reparative therapy.

 

[1137]

I thought you didn't want to discuss this again? You post that one study, I can post 10 that show the opposite (some of them even from the same database). I can even post studies that account for things like suicide rate (which are, in total, much lower post-op than pre-op), and continued psychiatric intervention (not everyone likes or accepts us, and many wish us hateful things - continued therapy after surgery is also encouraged).
You are also using only numbers, where I can draw on my own anecdotal evidence and the experience of others. You're looking at a group that largely and mostly speaks of not even wanting to live, of having dull, empty, and meaningless lives of just enduring and going through with the motions, and being miserable wrecks to becoming more positive, more lively, more happy, and even in many cases more healthy (many surgeons and even endocrinologists will require overweight patients to loose weight, but many do it on their own and become healthier as they become happier and begin to care more about themselves and take better care of themselves).
Like it or not, you just do not have the background, knowledge, or experience that I do with this subject. I've literally been studying it my entire life. Studies like this one you posted are few and far between, much like the few studies that support the idea homosexuals can change their sexuality and be happy and content about it, despite the numerous other studies that account for those studies only looking at a short-time frame and when the time frame is extended the results are that patients are worse off than before they started reparative therapy.

I'm sorry, go back to ignoring all the studies you disagree with. You want to pick the same fight again? Fine. Let's encourage depressed people to mutilate themselves, schizophrenic people their voices are real and after them, all that good stuff to. Let's ignore all bad information we don't like and encourage mental dysfunction. Sorry,but my life is dedicated to helping people live the best life they can, and a big part of that is accepting reality. Sure, a transgender brain may differ from a "normal" brain just like a depressed brain and schizophrenic brain will, but I don't agree with you that we should encourage these dysfunctional feelings. I guess my academic background in psychology just can't compare to your own subjective experience, silly worthless academia and experience, I should go based on how I feel!

But anyways,seriously, please learn how quoting works here and understand that if someone quotes you they're talking to you, and if they quote someone else they probably aren't.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

While we're on studies, here's a relevant one showing that sex reassignment surgery increases risk of suicide, need for psychiatric intervention, etc. I just wish more therapists like shadow wolf's would drop the post modern crap and start caring about their patient's futures.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

They forget to factor out how hormone therapy of any kind increases suicide at early and mid stages.

 

[1137]

They forget to factor out how hormone therapy of any kind increases suicide at early and mid stages.

The study went for 30 years after transition. Read the study next time.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

schizophrenic people their voices are real and after them

Schizophrenics do not improve in the functioning or quality of life if you let them believe the voices are real and after them.

Let's encourage depressed people to mutilate themselves

Mutilation is a relative term. To some, I'm mutilated for having facial piercings, and the indigenous practices of many tribes leave them horribly mutilated from practicing their traditional ways. To some, mutilation is the sincerest forms of flattery.

Let's ignore all bad information we don't like and encourage mental dysfunction.

Except study, after study, after study have shown mental functioning improves with transition. I haven't ignored any studies. I've even read the studies from groups like NARTH. That is how I can confidently state that studies like the one you posted are a minority, and the majority of studies show transsexuals improve with transitioning.

I guess my academic background in psychology just can't compare to your own subjective experience,

I actually didn't question or challenge your academic background. But, FYI, my academic background is also in psychology. But you did state you wish therapists like mine would drop the "post modern crap and start caring," which means you are not above challenging their own backgrounds in psychology, their own research, and dismissing their treatments as "crap" that doesn't have the well-being of the patient in mind.
What I pointed out was that I have done far more research into the subject than you have. I didn't say your background doesn't matter, I said that I'm much more well educated about the subject and I've read far more about it than you have. Even things written by "pro" transitioning authors I have wondered about, because I've not read some of the claims in any other sources. But what I consistently read, time and time again, and not just in science journals and studies and reports, but also from the self-report of transsexuals (and I've probably met more of them than you have), that transitioning helps to improve their overall well-being. Hormone therapy may shave off a few years of life, but what is a few years in exchange for being able to go from not even wanting to live in the first place to being happy and being able to be yourself? Too many of us, it's just a none issue. We loose a few years, but we also get to ditch a painfully heavy mask that we have to wear because people insist we just be happy and content with being our birth sex (and even transsexuals who have no idea what the LHP is, or who Nietzsche is, or even anything much about philosophy will use the term "mask." It's not my own word being used, but a word that is frequently and widely used by the trans-community as a whole).
My own personal experience is such that I even know when the trans-community just gets stupid, and some of them even do adhere to and uphold traditional gender norms and denounce those that don't. But arguments like that tend to get so dumb that many cis-born women do not qualify as women just because they wear jeans. It also gets really weird when transsexuals (albeit not many) start to bash and denounce homosexuals. Some even go from being hyper-masculine guys living in denial to hyper-feminine women (to the point that some report a decrease in driving skills) because they are too worried about having everything "just right" to fill their new roles. But, largely and mostly, we are a diverse group (pretty much like men are a diverse group and women are a diverse group), but with one commonality, and that is that we largely and mostly tend to improve with transitioning. Yes, some do kill themselves even after genital surgery, but those are the ones who have not succeeded in transitioning (often noted with a lack of any support group), or have a mood disorder. But even friends and family are known for recognizing the increased and elevated mood that comes with transitioning.

But anyways,seriously, please learn how quoting works here and understand that if someone quotes you they're talking to you, and if they quote someone else they probably aren't.

That tends to be not how it works. Any other thread you look, there are people leaving replies to posts that weren't directly stated to them. Not even life functions like that. Sure, you may be saying something to some specific person, but if you aren't in a private setting, it's up-for-grabs for someone else to interject themselves into the conversation.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They forget to factor out how hormone therapy of any kind increases suicide at early and mid stages.

According to WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health), there is a lack of studies that focus on the effectiveness of just hormone therapy alone, with most studies focusing on either pre-op and post-op status. Even with my own studies, it's not something that is brought up, and it comes down to pretty much the anecdotal evidence of those who only seek hormone therapy. Their self-report is pretty much the same, but with a trend of many starting with the goal of only hormones, but then opting for surgery later on.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

The study went for 30 years after transition. Read the study next time.

I did, and you need to pay attention to the details provided.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

According to WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health), there is a lack of studies that focus on the effectiveness of just hormone therapy alone, with most studies focusing on either pre-op and post-op status. Even with my own studies, it's not something that is brought up, and it comes down to pretty much the anecdotal evidence of those who only seek hormone therapy. Their self-report is pretty much the same, but with a trend of many starting with the goal of only hormones, but then opting for surgery later on.

This is what I have heard from every transsexual I have met that has gone through the hormone therapy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No.

Science has no shown any differences of the brain structure of these people yet.

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/Standards of Care, V7 Full Book.pdf
That is not only pretty much "the" guide for transitioning, it's also contains many studies regarding various areas of transitioning. For a brief-yet-sufficient "intro" study, it is probably the best place to start. It is 120 pages, but even with my slow reading pace it didn't take me too long to read all the way through.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/Standards of Care, V7 Full Book.pdf
That is not only pretty much "the" guide for transitioning, it's also contains many studies regarding various areas of transitioning. For a brief-yet-sufficient "intro" study, it is probably the best place to start. It is 120 pages, but even with my slow reading pace it didn't take me too long to read all the way through.

Wait before I consider this source, does WPATH make money off of the transexual community in any way?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

For the last time,that statement was for shadow wolf. Please at least TRY common sense. Since you've obviously fallen back to trolling I'll respond to the rest of your post when I'm more prepared for it.

I'm not trolling. It's not trolling to ask a valid question. This is an open forum and the thread isn't locked. I can and will reply to whomever I please.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/Standards of Care, V7 Full Book.pdf
This part even addresses the study that 1137 linked to:

In 1981, Pauly published results from a large retrospective study of people who had undergone
sex reassignment surgery. Participants in that study had much better outcomes: Among 83 FtM
patients, 80.7% had a satisfactory outcome (i.e., patient self report of “improved social and emotional
adjustment”), 6.0% unsatisfactory. Among 283 MtF patients, 71.4% had a satisfactory outcome, 8.1%
unsatisfactory. This study included patients who were treated before the publication and use of the
Standards of Care
.
Since the
Standards of Care
have been in place, there has been a steady increase in patient satisfaction
and decrease in dissatisfaction with the outcome of sex reassignment surgery. Studies conducted after
1996 focused on patients who were treated according to the
Standards of Care
. The fi ndings of Rehman
and colleagues (1999) and Krege and colleagues (2001) are typical of this body of work; none of the
patients in these studies regretted having had surgery, and most reported being satisfi ed with the
cosmetic and functional results of the surgery. Even patients who develop severe surgical complications
seldom regret having undergone surgery. Quality of surgical results is one of the best predictors of the
overall outcome of sex reassignment (Lawrence, 2003). The vast majority of follow-up studies have
shown an undeniable benefi cial effect of sex reassignment surgery on postoperative outcomes such
as subjective well being, cosmesis, and sexual function (De Cuypere et al., 2005; Garaffa, Christopher,
& Ralph, 2010; Klein & Gorzalka, 2009), although the specifi c magnitude of benefi t is uncertain from
the currently available evidence. One study (Emory, Cole, Avery, Meyer, & Meyer, 2003) even showed
improvement in patient income.
One troubling report (Newfi eld et al., 2006) documented lower scores on quality of life (measured
with the SF-36) for FtM patients than for the general population. A weakness of that study is that it
recruited its 384 participants by a general email rather than a systematic approach, and the degree
and type of treatment were not recorded. Study participants who were taking testosterone had typically
being doing so for less than 5 years. Reported quality of life was higher for patients who had undergone
breast/chest surgery than for those who had not (p<.001). (A similar analysis was not done for genital
surgery.) In other work, Kuhn and colleagues (2009) used the King’s Health Questionnaire to assess
the quality of life of 55 transsexual patients at 15 years after surgery. Scores were compared to those of
20 healthy female control patients who had undergone abdominal/pelvic surgery in the past. Quality
of life scores for transsexual patients were the same or better than those of control patients for some
subscales (emotions, sleep, incontinence, symptom severity, and role limitation), but worse in other
domains (general health, physical limitation, and personal limitation).
Two long-term observational studies, both retrospective, compared the mortality and psychiatric
morbidity of transsexual adults to those of general population samples (Asscheman et al., 2011; Dhejne
et al., 2011). An analysis of data from the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare information
registry found that individuals who had received sex reassignment surgery (191 MtF and 133 FtM) had
signifi cantly higher rates of mortality, suicide, suicidal behavior, and psychiatric morbidity than those
for a nontranssexual control group matched on age, immigrant status, prior psychiatric morbidity, and
birth sex (Dhejne et al., 2011). Similarly, a study in the Netherlands reported a higher total mortality rate,
including incidence of suicide, in both pre- and post-surgery transsexual patients (966 MtF and 365
MtF) than in the general population of that country (Asscheman et al., 2011). Neither of these studies
questioned the effi cacy of sex reassignment; indeed, both lacked an adequate comparison group of
transsexuals who either did not receive treatment or who received treatment other than genital surgery.
Moreover, transsexual people in these studies were treated as far back as the 1970s. However, these
fi ndings do emphasize the need to have good long-term psychological and psychiatric care available
for this population. More studies are needed that focus on the outcomes of current assessment and
treatment approaches for gender dysphoria.
It is diffi cult to determine the effectiveness of hormones alone in the relief of gender dysphoria. Most
studies evaluating the effectiveness of masculinizing/feminizing hormone therapy on gender dysphoria
have been conducted with patients who have also undergone sex reassignment surgery. Favorable
effects of therapies that included both hormones and surgery were reported in a comprehensive review
of over 3000 patients in 79 studies (mostly observational) conducted between 1961 and 1991 (Eldh,
Berg, & Gustafsson, 1997; Gijs & Brewaeys, 2007; Murad et al., 2010; Pfäffl in & Junge, 1998). Patients
operated on after 1986 did better than those before 1986; this refl ects signifi cant improvement in
surgical complications (Eldh et al., 1997). Most patients have reported improved psychosocial
outcomes, ranging between 87% for MtF patients and 97% for FtM patients (Green & Fleming, 1990).
Similar improvements were found in a Swedish study in which “almost all patients were satisfi ed with
sex reassignment at 5 years, and 86% were assessed by clinicians at follow-up as stable or improved in
global functioning” (Johansson, Sundbom, Höjerback, & Bodlund, 2010). Weaknesses of these earlier
studies are their retrospective design and use of different criteria to evaluate outcomes.
A prospective study conducted in the Netherlands evaluated 325 consecutive adult and adolescent
subjects seeking sex reassignment (Smith, Van Goozen, Kuiper, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2005). Patients who
underwent sex reassignment therapy (both hormonal and surgical intervention) showed improvements
in their mean gender dysphoria scores, measured by the Utrecht Gender Dysphoria Scale. Scores for
body dissatisfaction and psychological function also improved in most categories. Fewer than 2%
of patients expressed regret after therapy. This is the largest prospective study to affi rm the results
from retrospective studies that a combination of hormone therapy and surgery improves gender
dysphoria and other areas of psychosocial functioning. There is a need for further research on the
effects of hormone therapy without surgery, and without the goal of maximum physical feminization
or masculinization.
Overall, studies have been reporting a steady improvement in outcomes as the fi eld becomes more
advanced. Outcome research has mainly focused on the outcome of sex reassignment surgery. In
current practice there is a range of identity, role, and physical adaptations that could use additional
follow-up or outcome research (Institute of Medicine, 2011).

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

They forget to factor out how hormone therapy of any kind increases suicide at early and mid stages.

Hormone therapy increases suicide? How?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Wait before I consider this source, does WPATH make money off of the transexual community in any way?

They have a donate link on their website. But any therapist who works with transsexuals is going to be familiar with it, and is most likely using to some extent to guide their decisions in determining the best treatment option for their clients.
Here is the Wiki link about it/them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand..._Transgender,_and_Gender_Nonconforming_People
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Professional_Association_for_Transgender_Health

 

[1137]

Did you fall and bump your head or something? You know me and you know I've been on this forum for years. If you don't want to talk about it, fine. But I just don't get why you bothered to bring it up in the first place.

Now, even though you don't want to talk about it, I'm going to respond to your comments about it:

No, trans people do not encourage gender roles. We don't encourage anything in particular. In general, all we say is to be yourself and that we should be allowed to have the same rights and respect as everyone else. All trans men and all trans women are not a certain way. Most trans men are not macho stereotypes and most trans women are not '50s housewife stereotypes. There's fem trans men, butch trans women, androgynes, genderqueers and gender****ers. I, myself, am a trans man who is mostly masculine but is also a bit of a queen. I don't mind playing around with gender roles and perceptions. No is saying that just because a little boy perceives himself as feminine or partakes in stereotypically feminine activities, that he must be trans and should transition to female. No one is saying that at all. The same goes for adults and anyone else. It would be quite dangerous and stupid to encourage someone to transition just on that basis alone. I transitioned to male for reasons much bigger than "oh, I liked to play with action figures, didn't like dresses and liked to play with boys as a kid".

To transition, medically, you need to have gender/sex dysphoria, which the medical treatments seek to alleviate. Because if you don't have dysphoria, then getting on hormone therapy and possibly having surgery will most likely cause dysphoria. Then you've made a big mistake. So it is not something to be taken lightly.

But that's medical transition. There's many people who are gender non-conforming who are just fine with their bodies and don't desire to undergo hormone therapy or have surgeries. There's some guys who are just more comfortable expressing themselves in a feminine manner and vica versa for women.

Actually, the trans rights movement and our community is actually saying the opposite of what you think it is saying. It's saying that you don't have to be a certain way in order to be recognized as a man or a woman or whatever else your identity may be. It's saying that you don't need to have a penis to be a man, or a vagina to be a woman. Even as a transsexual, you don't need to have the surgery in order to be a "real" man or a "real" woman. You don't have to be macho to be a man, or ultra-femme to be a woman. There's many, many shades inbetween and that's great. It's something that's within you and you can express it however you please.

Do you not understand that male and female are categories based on one's biological sex? The second you tie it to how one feels you're encouraging gender roles and all that good stuff.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Do you not understand that male and female are categories based on one's biological sex?

Sure it is. But biological sex is not black and white. It's a complex thing that's informed by chromosomes, hormones and neurological makeup. There's many grey areas, such as the various intersex conditions. The best theory we have about transsexualism is that the brain, while in the womb, is exposed to high levels of cross-hormones that causes the brain to form in opposition to the rest of the body, which is what creates sex dysphoria because the brain expects the body to be a certain way, but it's the opposite of its expectation. Many trans men (FtMs) are known to experience phantom penis syndrome, for example. Transsexual digit ratios also tend to follow the sex that they identify as. For example, I have a male digit ratio and I'm a trans man. So that means that I was exposed to high levels of androgens in the womb, higher than is normal for a female fetus.

So it's a sort of biological "glitch" that happens in utero. Chromosomes are a sort of blueprint, but they become rather meaningless quickly and they're not the main deciding factor on whether one is male or female. Science tells us that biological sex is a spectrum rather than a binary.

The second you tie it to how one feels you're encouraging gender roles and all that good stuff.

I don't encourage anything except for people to be themselves. If you're comfortable being a masculine woman or a feminine man, go for it.

 

[1137]

I don't encourage anything except for people to be themselves. If you're comfortable being a masculine woman or a feminine man, go for it.

So you don't support, say, transition surgery?