You're trans-...what?

[Saint Frankenstein]

So you don't support, say, transition surgery?

Only if it's necessary for the person's health. I support it for those who truly need it. I'm going to get chest surgery eventually but I've decided that I don't want genital surgery.

 

[1137]

Only if it's necessary for the person's health. I support it for those who truly need it. I'm going to get chest surgery eventually but I've decided that I don't want genital surgery.

So an honest question: what makes it necessary in your case? Obviously feel free to keep it to yourself.

 

[Sunstone]

Recently I've come across three new types of trans identity; trans-age, trans-racial, and trans-species. First let me define these terms, since they can carry multiple interpretations I want to make it clear which I'm referring to. Trans-age refers to a person who believes that they are a different age than their body is and choose to live life as someone of their preferred age. Trans-racial refers to a person who believes that they were born in the wrong skin, essentially (by trans-racial I'm not referring to those who were adopted into a family of a different race and therefore identify as part of that racial group, I'm referring to those who truly believe they were born into the wrong skin color). Trans-species refers to people who believe they are a non-human wrongly born in a human body, commonly referred to as otherkin.

The most problematic aspect of any of these are the legal implications of trans-age. If one claims to be younger than they are, are they bound by the legal restrictions of that age? What if they no longer feel that way? What if someone claims to be older, can a child then gain legal permission to do adult things such as drink and marry?

Are these new identities taking things to far? Do they differ at all from their socially accepted counterparts; mature for your age/childish, fitting in better with a different racial community, and having a spirit animal/feelings spiritually connected to an animal? If so, how? If we choose to legally recognize these identities, how would we adapt the laws? Do you see these identities as legitimate or simply a form of delusion?

I'm not going to answer these questions myself, I'm more interested in what you all think. So, new trans identities; a-ok or no way?

It seems to me these new categories might lessen people's understanding of transgender and transgendered folks.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So an honest question: what makes it necessary in your case? Obviously feel free to keep it to yourself.

If their dysphoria towards those parts of their bodies is so severe that they can't function normally. If it's making them depressed, suicidal, causing social and sexual dysfunction and they generally can't feel at home in their body, basically.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So an honest question: what makes it necessary in your case? Obviously feel free to keep it to yourself.

Ask, and you shall receive (even if you say not to answer).
In my case, it's that I've pretty much always struggled against my body and society to varying degrees. I've never liked the sound of my voice, never could stand looking at myself in the mirror until the first time I did myself up as a woman, socially I'm much more comfortable and open when I can present as (or otherwise be recognized as) female, and I don't even enjoy sex (even a more passive role isn't satisfying because society tends to summarize your entire existence by your genitals, and it's hard to enjoy something when the focus is largely on the very things that have damned your life from day one). One interesting aspect though is as more people came to know of me, was the response I got from some, with some saying they could tell there was something more than just Asperger's that is off/different about me, the ones that said that explains the "gay vibes" they got off (though I'm still not sure exactly what they meant by that or the mannerisms that made them think that), and the ones that said that in a way they considered me one of the girls anyways. Granted I'm too the point I can no longer be selective with whom I come out to, but the only major people left to tell is my family. And what's the worst they're going to do? Hate it and be disappointed? It's not like they haven't disappointed me so deeply that I actually care what they think, and had I known about my mom's total 180 thinking regarding transsexuals I would have came out to them much sooner. But, regardless, I accepted myself, was able to pick myself up, set goals, and I have even achieved some of those goals.
Pretty much, the greatest thing I ever did for myself was abandon Christianity, because not only did I make many improvements in my life from that decision alone, it allowed me to make the second greatest thing I ever did for myself, which was to accept myself and go forward with the transitioning process. I went from being suicidal, and even having a failed attempt, to not even considering it or thinking of it once. Basically, just by accepting myself and becoming more of myself, I went from suicidal to non-suicidal. To reiterate what I said earlier, it doesn't matter what people say or think, I will definitely take where I am now and where I'm heading now over the rut I was stuck in earlier in life. Yet, you would dismiss what has so clearly made such a tremendous positive impact in my life as "post modern crap."

 

[1137]

You guys equate changing yourself with learning to love yourself, you see a dysfunction giving disorder as something to give in to in order to alleviate it, which is akin to self harm and suicide in someone with depression. It's a position that someone like me just can't understand, I'm sorry. I will continue to try and make my patients better and help them love themselves. But feel lucky if nothing else, cause most of us have to learn and deal with our dysfunction rather than giving in.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You guys equate changing yourself with learning to love yourself, you see a dysfunction giving disorder as something to give in to in order to alleviate it, which is akin to self harm and suicide in someone with depression. It's a position that someone like me just can't understand, I'm sorry. I will continue to try and make my patients better and help them love themselves. But feel lucky if nothing else, cause most of us have to learn and deal with our dysfunction rather than giving in.

Perhaps from another angle?
Because I have Asperger's Syndrome (which there is actually a fairly high comorbidity between Asperger's and Gender Dysphoria) I am most definitely not an extrovert, I am not the life of the party, and I am uncomfortable around more than a few people and socially I tend to shut down at that point, even up to experiencing selective mutism (which is more common in females with Asperger's*). But yet, as I pointed out on another thread, I can choose to be the life of the party, I can make myself the center of attention, and I could try and socialize with several people. However, it will be extremely difficult for me, extremely stressful, and if I don't have a meltdown I'll at least be isolating myself for a day or two in order to recovery from the experience. It just isn't in my nature, it isn't who I am, and the proper coping methods isn't by fighting against that but by learning to function with my nature.
In a way, being transsexual, though a totally different thing than being introverted or extroverted, in some regards it is similar. We are expected to go against our nature (being deeply introverted/living as our birth-assigned sex), we live in depression trying to live up to the standards of others, and it is by being ourselves and being comfortable with what we're doing that allows us to function and thrive. We are depressed and dysfunctional before we accept ourselves and as we are fighting against ourselves, expected to be who we know we aren't, and because we are just going through with the motions of living. But once we accept ourselves, live in a way that makes us feel fulfilled and content (for some this just means occasionally cross dressing and going out into the world as their identified sex for a moment to live and breathe), and begin to be accepted by others, we aren't nearly as depressed or dysfunctional. We may change our bodies, but people of various groups and cultures have long changed and sculpted their bodies for various reasons, often to bring a religious, spiritual (such as the other kin mentioned earlier in the thread), or cultural satisfaction (which, when you include hair dye, makeup, and paints, is something that is very widely and frequently found). And we certainly are not changing ourselves. You call in "giving in to a dysfunction," but there is no giving in, only denial and acceptance. With acceptance and transition, we function better in society, we become more comfortable with ourselves and others, and it's not unusual for someone to say that the dysphoria is gone post-op. I'm not that far yet, but I'm heading that way because I've always hated having a penis because it has defined my existence in such a negative way that I was borderline with alcohol addiction before I was even old enough to legally drink (fortunately, I "caught" my cravings for alcohol, knew what it meant, and was able to cut myself off for a time before it became an issue). Now my worst addictions are caffeine and nicotine (e-cig, so I'm not getting all the junk that comes with tobacco and cigarettes). I haven't been suicidal since I accepted myself, which alone is a significant milestone in the psychological and physical well being of anyone, especially when it's done sober. Setting goals and achieving those are another milestone for well being and caring for yourself, and prior to acceptance I had no direction in life, and no real motivations or ambitions. My self-esteem and confidence have also improved. It went from being so low that I questioned myself on if I'd even be able to make it through school to knowing that graduating with honors was easily within my grasp. It's even added further motivation to get to a healthy weight and increase my level of physical activity (which did kind of backfire a few years ago, but such is life). Of course this is a "professional" documentation, but the me of today and the me of 10 years ago are totally different people. I still drink and use drugs, but not nearly as often, I'm not stealing and shop lifting to make money, I don't feel I have to put up an intimidating macho front, and I don't cry myself to sleep on most nights anymore because I'm no longer the miserable wretch I once was. I'm smiling more, laughing more, and enjoying life more. I've especially learn how to enjoy and appreciate the small things in life.
*This was a side point I wanted to mention, because it goes to show how deeply seated something like gender dysphoria is. When it comes to Asperger's Syndrome, I actually display traits that are more typical for women with Asperger's than Men with it. No, I didn't use these reasons to accept myself or proceed with a transition, but nevertheless I found it interesting because it suggests just how deeply ingrained, both psychologically and biologically, that gender identity is. I grasp mathematical concepts much easier than most of my peers, and though I am fascinated with science, a career in science has just never interested me. And though I am impaired with empathy, I do find that I tend to be more empathetic, particularly with understanding (rather than feeling), than most men. I also have a caring and nurturing nature about me, though few ever actually see it because it's very hard for me to open up to people enough for them to even hear my voice, let alone know a thought in my head. Even my preference of the fantasy worlds of dragons, vampires, magic, and spirits is more typical for females with Asperger's than it is with men, as are being involved with religions such as Wicca. Writing is also more common for women with Asperger's.
I can only hope you attempt to try to understand, rather than being so dismissive. I have tried to make it clear that I am not giving into dysfunction (that is when I decide to lay in bed from depression instead of getting up, or letting my social anxieties keep me at home), but have taken my life from being dysfunctional to being on track towards functional, and I have achieved many milestones along the way. And that's just with poking my foot out of the closet door.

 

[gnomon]

You forgot transrational.

This was the only statement that needed stating.

A test to see if I'm back.

Hello Jay.

edit: I'm back.

 

[Aštra’el]

I identify as a seven headed dragon.

 

[gnomon]

Only if it's necessary for the person's health. I support it for those who truly need it. I'm going to get chest surgery eventually but I've decided that I don't want genital surgery.

 

[gnomon]

I think this is a very important statement. The term trans is thrown out without much social or scientific knowledge yet there are people who suffer from such a personal dysphoria that surgery is deemed as a necessary procedure. However, there is also the confusion between the terms gender and sex, one of which is a social norm and the other a biological determinant, that throws confusion upon the issue. And then there is of course....the intersex.

What I fear is that people who have gender dysphoria become convinced, based upon available medical and hormonal applications and a rather strong liberal attitude to utilize such expensive and invasive measures that such individuals must undergo those procedures, when the case may be that social norms regarding gender concepts within a culture are what truly needs addressing. That society needs to reassess their view of gender norms.

But to the concept of the OP.

Trans ageism? We age. All of us. I truly do not know how to respond to such a supposed phrase.

Trans race? We are already suffering from the hyphenated nonsense of confusion between culture and race. In fact culture doesn't truly include race. Culture is a far more complex issue than simplistic racial designations which have no true scientific construct.

Trans species? How many alien women has Kirk slept with?

Let's not water down the issue of transgender when our society is actually struggling with gender identity issues, and I will add ignoring intersex, and the actual sensitive subjects from people being afraid of sexual males, transgender or not, entering a restroom with their young girls.

What we do not need is irrational equations of a serious subject with a supposed imposition of transageism, transracism or.....are you kidding me....transspecies.

edit: Apparently I separated my post from Saint Frankensteins post. Sorry about that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What I fear is that people who have gender dysphoria become convinced, based upon available medical and hormonal applications and a rather strong liberal attitude to utilize such expensive and invasive measures that such individuals must undergo those procedures, when the case may be that social norms regarding gender concepts within a culture are what truly needs addressing. That society needs to reassess their view of gender norms.

If gender norms was all it was, we wouldn't be finding the genetic links we do. It's also ignoring that people with gender dysphoria have no interest or desire to live as their birth sex. It's a rejection that is often found before a transsexual is even old enough to know what scientific research and medical data are. Regardless of gender norms, transsexuals are a diverse crowd just as cisgender people are. Some transwomen prefer living the 50's house wife role, some play punk rock and heavy metal. Some transmen are real super-macho stiffs, while some transmen are very flamboyant and effeminate. One thing that is not being brought up is to qualify for treatment is used to be you had to live in the more traditional roles, including jobs. But that policy was dropped many years ago because it was being realized they were having many people pretending to live one life to only have to pretend to live another, because a part of the criteria used to be that you had to also be heterosexual to qualify for treatment. But today you can be a MtF, be covered with tattoos, and work construction. Though there are many gender norms in society that do need to be changed, even with a strict adherence to norms and relaxing them, as well as tremendous shifts in traditional roles in society since transsexuals began to attract scientific attention nearly a century ago, and the only thing that has been happening is the medical approaches have improved tremendously, more people began to seek treatment for it, and as more transsexuals began to appear, their stories were covered more, studies begin showing they are psychologically well-better off after transitioning, acceptance has gradually went up some, more people are coming out, and it's not too hard to see why. Science has looked at numerous treatments and tortures to try and cure gender dysphoria without hormones and surgery and by making the person comfortable with and accepting of their birth sex, but it's just never worked. Medical treatment, on the other hand, has shown to have a very high rate of success.

and the actual sensitive subjects from people being afraid of sexual males, transgender or not, entering a restroom with their young girls.

There used to be fears concerning racial integration. But today it's simply unfathomable for a decent person to have issues or concerns regarding racial integration, because the fears are unfounded. Now, do we allow unfounded fears to dictate society and law, or do we allow reason and logic to decide?

 

[gnomon]

If gender norms was all it was, we wouldn't be finding the genetic links we do. It's also ignoring that people with gender dysphoria have no interest or desire to live as their birth sex. It's a rejection that is often found before a transsexual is even old enough to know what scientific research and medical data are. Regardless of gender norms, transsexuals are a diverse crowd just as cisgender people are. Some transwomen prefer living the 50's house wife role, some play punk rock and heavy metal. Some transmen are real super-macho stiffs, while some transmen are very flamboyant and effeminate. One thing that is not being brought up is to qualify for treatment is used to be you had to live in the more traditional roles, including jobs. But that policy was dropped many years ago because it was being realized they were having many people pretending to live one life to only have to pretend to live another, because a part of the criteria used to be that you had to also be heterosexual to qualify for treatment. But today you can be a MtF, be covered with tattoos, and work construction. Though there are many gender norms in society that do need to be changed, even with a strict adherence to norms and relaxing them, as well as tremendous shifts in traditional roles in society since transsexuals began to attract scientific attention nearly a century ago, and the only thing that has been happening is the medical approaches have improved tremendously, more people began to seek treatment for it, and as more transsexuals began to appear, their stories were covered more, studies begin showing they are psychologically well-better off after transitioning, acceptance has gradually went up some, more people are coming out, and it's not too hard to see why. Science has looked at numerous treatments and tortures to try and cure gender dysphoria without hormones and surgery and by making the person comfortable with and accepting of their birth sex, but it's just never worked. Medical treatment, on the other hand, has shown to have a very high rate of success.

There used to be fears concerning racial integration. But today it's simply unfathomable for a decent person to have issues or concerns regarding racial integration, because the fears are unfounded. Now, do we allow unfounded fears to dictate society and law, or do we allow reason and logic to decide?

I'm stating that there is a pressure based upon a non-scientific concept that the idea of the male/female sexual identity equates to a male/female gender identity role imposed by society. I believe that many people who suffer from the consequences of gender dysphoria imposed by societal norms could achieve a healthier life without the idea of hormone therapy and sexual reassignment because our society demands a certain one to one relationship between the two terms. Gender roles across numerous cultures vary and we are stuck within a certain narrow definition due to certain cultural definitions of gender roles. Not to mention the fact of intersex has thrown the concept of a one to one relationship of gender and sex into absolute obscurity.

We are still awaiting definitive definitions of the so called male and female brain in modern medical terms. I just don't want to see people undergo expensive therapeutic and medical procedures when they may not be necessary. This comes from my own experience in the mental health field.

Don't get me wrong. I do not object to any individual seeking what they seek is best for them. I also support the full support of both medical and societal norms to accommodate them.

And yes, integration is a serious topic this time. Where racial integration involved just allowing people of a different skin color or heritage to participate in basic activities such as politics, sitting on the bus, eating at a restaurant......this time it involves a new element. Specifically one in which, given recent social media, describes a rape culture and overblown pedophilia over the internet and social media. I'll just let that sink in but there are going to be many people who are going to have problems with that concept of transgender people, especially pre-op, using the restroom of their choice. It is absolutely fathomable that these people are going to be concerned. You cannot set aside what media has perpetuated on one hand while attempting to use the same media to change peoples opinions. These cases will arise. What is the appropriate response? Dismiss them as bigots. That will solve nothing.

What do you say?

Seriously, because I haven't come up with anything yet. I'm not willing to decry an entire long standing culture as merely bigoted.

edit: And I should phrase that last statement because I'm often seen that way towards them. I also think a lot of my misgivings on this issue is what I have dealt with in the treatment of my bipolar disorder. A lot of drugs with no result. I'd just hate to see those with more serious issues go through so much money and distraught for nothing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm stating that there is a pressure based upon a non-scientific concept that the idea of the male/female sexual identity equates to a male/female gender identity role imposed by society.

Gender norms do not contribute to gender dysphoria. There are also a number of transsexuals who do not uphold to these norms, and the requirements for treatment even dropped the part requiring someone adhere to and uphold traditional norms because there isn't any link between norms and gender dysphoria.

I believe that many people who suffer from the consequences of gender dysphoria imposed by societal norms could achieve a healthier life without the idea of hormone therapy and sexual reassignment because our society demands a certain one to one relationship between the two terms.

If you're a guy who acts feminine, but does not actually identify as female, then you can't transition. A woman can't transition just she was a tom boy as a girl. And various treatments without hormones and surgery have been tried, and have been pretty much just as successful as reparative therapy trying to change the sexual orientation of homosexuals. A guy who does identify as female can act feminine, but that doesn't address the issue of gender dysphoria.

Gender roles across numerous cultures vary and we are stuck within a certain narrow definition due to certain cultural definitions of gender roles.

That can be true, but many cultures have had more than two genders, and we still find evidence of transsexuals in those cultures.

 

[suncowiam]

I'm not a Trans anything.

I'm actually just a Tran. As in my last name is Tran.

Drum roll please...

 

[Liu]

I'm stating that there is a pressure based upon a non-scientific concept that the idea of the male/female sexual identity equates to a male/female gender identity role imposed by society. I believe that many people who suffer from the consequences of gender dysphoria imposed by societal norms could achieve a healthier life without the idea of hormone therapy and sexual reassignment because our society demands a certain one to one relationship between the two terms.

I agree, there probably even are people who consider themselves transgender because they don't fit the gender stereotypes but who are otherwise completely fine with the body they have.

In my case (genderqueer born female), I don't consider the term "gender-dysphoria" to be fitting, one could rather call it "sex-dysphoria" I guess, for lack of a better term.
I feel I have the wrong body, especially regarding my chest. Due to that I'd like to get top-surgery one day, and maybe also hormone therapy.
But since I can express my gender for the most part independently of what body I have, I don't feel the need to actually live as a man, especially since I consider my gender to be in between, and since it would take a great deal of adjustment. I guess for most people their gender (i.e. the social role they feel most comfortable with) is somewhere between the social constructs of typically female and typically male anyway; it's only when you don't get along with the physical characteristics you have that I'd consider hormone therapy and/or surgery to be recommendable.

To contribute to the topic of the thread, I actually feel a bit trans-species, but the species changes once in a while and is also normally not any actual animal but rather some mix between human and other animals. I have a phantom-tail and sometimes also phantom-claws and -horns. But I don't consider all that much of an identity-thing or even any serious problem, it's rather which shape my mind itself currently likes to have, not what my body needs to be, so I have no dysphoria regarding that. It's more some fun aspect of my spirituality.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But since I can express my gender for the most part independently of what body I have, I don't feel the need to actually live as a man

And that is where those such as yourself differ from transsexuals. With transsexuals, it isn't about roles and norms, but the need to live as their identified sex.

it's only when you don't get along with the physical characteristics you have that I'd consider hormone therapy and/or surgery to be recommendable.

That is the only time doctors will support medical treatments and sign the required letters of recommendation. And it takes months of therapy before hormones are even prescribed, and you have to be on hormones for at least 12 months and live full time as your identified sex for no less than 12 months before the letters of recommendation for surgery can be signed.
The Standards of Care are criticized not for being too relaxed and making it too easy for someone who shouldn't transition to go through with a transition, but for being very strict in the things required to transition. But, be as that is, when the Standards of Care were set in place things such as regret declined and while the number of successful transitions increased.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hey guys, I heard a word "trans-trender" in Youtube. Is it a derogatory/offensive term?

 

[Liu]

And that is where those such as yourself differ from transsexuals. With transsexuals, it isn't about roles and norms, but the need to live as their identified sex.

It's only when you don't get along with the physical characteristics you have that I'd consider hormone therapy and/or surgery to be recommendable.

That is the only time doctors will support medical treatments and sign the required letters of recommendation. And it takes months of therapy before hormones are even prescribed, and you have to be on hormones for at least 12 months and live full time as your identified sex for no less than 12 months before the letters of recommendation for surgery can be signed.

I think you misunderstood me; I do have a problem with my physical characteristics and would like to have the body of a male; I don't identify that much with the roles and norms associated with it, though, which is why I'm reluctant to actually go through with it. But I haven't even started therapy, so I may think different about that in the future.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Gender norms do not contribute to gender dysphoria.

I have to disagree with you there. Of course society's expectations in terms of gender and the body make dysphoria worse and cause anxiety and insecurity. It makes you feel like you're second rate, at best, compared to cis men and women, that you'll never compare. I struggle with that quite a bit.

Gender/sex and dysphoria about those things is a complex thing that encompasses both biological and social factors.