Zen Taoism

[Straw Dog]

Hello fellow travelers toward enlightenment!

I consider myself a Taoist, although I recognize the same truth within Zen Buddhism. I also understand that ancient Chinese traditions and Taoism have a prominent role in the formation of Zen. What I am wondering is whether one can be a Zen Taoist? Can I practice Zen experience of the moment as it is and refer to it as Tao flow? Isn't the direct experience of reality beyond any such linguistic and conceptual distinctions we may infer through our perceptual apparatus? Can I practice Zen without adhering to the strict dogma of the Eightfold Path and the Four Noble Truths?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

You'd be surprised at how much Taoist terminology the Zen masters used. Both Zen (or Chan is it's called in Chinese) borrowed heavily from each other, and there was alot of mutual understanding between the two. As a matter of fact, many Zen teachers actually called the Zen path Tao. Personally, I don't see any reason why you couldn't do both.

 

[Twilight Hue]

In spite of coming across some differences and some minor debate between Zen and Taoism as a viable mix, you might find that Chan is more accommodating , and holds a better relationship with Taoism than other schools of Zen. Yet like Dyanaprajna2011, I dont see any real major problems cropping up should you choose the latter, other than perhaps some changes required in order for a dual practice to be effective.

 

[koan]

Tao or the way was used before Buddhism met Taoism. Mahayana generally calls following the the Teachings of the Buddha, as the Way.

 

[wmjbyatt]

I am a Zen Taoist. I find Buddhism to give a very strong language and system to understanding certain immediate, esoteric and applicable aspects of reality, plus its teaching apparatus is much more developed than Taoism's.

There are those who would have you pick a philosophy and stick to it, gosh darnit. But I think that's just silly. Remember: "Be your own lamp in the darkness." Even great enlightened Buddhists of the same school will disagree about the Dharma. If your interpretation allows things to mesh, let it. Just don't get doctrinally attached to your own worldview. Let it change if your mind, experience, and interpretative apparati change.

 

[Straw Dog]

In spite of coming across some differences and some minor debate between Zen and Taoism as a viable mix, you might find that Chan is more accommodating , and holds a better relationship with Taoism than other schools of Zen. Yet like Dyanaprajna2011, I dont see any real major problems cropping up should you choose the latter, other than perhaps some changes required in order for a dual practice to be effective.

How do you see Zen and Taoism as necessarily representing a dual practice? I thought the focus of Zen was on direct experience and mindfulness of one's thoughts, words, and actions rather than over-fixation on abstract philosophy. I would approach Zen Taoism as simply the same as Zen Buddhism, except with grounding in the philosophy of Taoism rather than the philosophy of Buddhism.

 

[koan]

Then end results of Taoism are completely different to Buddhism. So except for some similarities in the lower echelons of practice, they are different.

 

[Straw Dog]

Then end results of Taoism are completely different to Buddhism. So except for some similarities in the lower echelons of practice, they are different.

I know the philosophies are different, but isn't the focus in Zen just on direct experience and awareness of one's thoughts, words, and actions within each and every moment? Zen Taoism would just be using Zen to pursue the results desired in Taoism (harmony with nature) rather than the results desired in Buddhism (non-self and nirvana).

 

[Twilight Hue]

How do you see Zen and Taoism as necessarily representing a dual practice? I thought the focus of Zen was on direct experience and mindfulness of one's thoughts, words, and actions rather than over-fixation on abstract philosophy. I would approach Zen Taoism as simply the same as Zen Buddhism, except with grounding in the philosophy of Taoism rather than the philosophy of Buddhism.

It is direct experience, yet in Zen the focus is not centered on the experience as it plays out but rather trancends such experiences* of which the focus in essence is aimless and wordless. Sound Familiar ?

It's the Ch'an variation of the Mayhana out of the ten sects of Buddhism in China which best reflects the Taoist influence. Looking at Dependent Origination for example, whereas similer comparisons can be made regarding the philosophy found in the first verse of the Tao Te Ching of Lao Tzu.

The Diamond Sutra addresses in letting the mind function freely without abiding anywhere or in anything, is comparitive to the "watercourse way" of Taoism's, "Go with the flow".

Lin-Chi from my understanding began his discourses by calling his monks "followers of Tao" which remains synonymous as being "followers of enlightenment" and a telling incident of the compatability of Ch'an comes by way of emperor Wu-tsung** in 845 AD where he proclaimed that all Buddhist monasteries be closed, yet spared Ch'an monasteries if I studied my history correctly on this.

There's a nice article written by Lawrence Day that I had based much of my response here concerning this. It helped me greatly in explaining the relationship and compatability with Ch'an Buddhism and Taoism.

It's somewhat lengthy, yet heres a snippet of the final note that in my view sums up everything rather nicely and hopefully answers your question.

Ch'an is empty, there is nothing in it.
There is no room for any -ism, not Buddhism, not Taoism.
Just plain empty.
It is not a belief system.
It is not a cosmogony.
Who you are is all it is.
Rudely, I interrupt my own essay to look back through the lens, and ask:
​

"Who are you?'
​

Article: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...nsnsCQ&usg=AFQjCNGX8Gwnj9bV1mnOWIFu9aHFiufe3g


*Emptiness of thoughts, words, and actions.
**A Taoist

 

[Straw Dog]

Thanks for the clarification and the interesting article.

I decided that it's probably just best to practice mindfulness and meditation while letting personal and social order arise naturally from the practice itself rather than seeking to impose my concepts of reality onto reality itself, whether it be Taoism or Buddhism. Of course words and concepts are useful for conveying meaning, but once we have the meaning why not just forget the words and let experience flow naturally from it?

 

[wmjbyatt]

There's a story on this forum somewhere about a monk whose incredible denseness led others to incredible understanding. My favorite part is that the dense monk really, really liked pickles and really, really hated carrots. Another monk asks him why does this, when the Great Way (Ch'an Buddhism, appoximately, from the bent of the story) says to end all preference. The dense monk says, "Easy. I love pickles, I hate carrots." Upon hearing this, the inquiring monk experienced a great realization: "The Great Way is easy! Just cease preferring the Great Way!"

 

[Tathagata]

That's like asking can you be a Christ-believing Christian. Why of course, that's the only way! lol.

Zen took the best of Taoism and the best of Buddhism and combined the two. Taoism is at the foundation of Zen.


.

 

[koan]

The Great way is easy, just avoid picking and choosing.

 

[Secret Chief]

There is an interesting book on this subject, by Ray Grigg, called The Tao of Zen. It basically works from the pretext that if you remove the accretions of Buddhism what lies at the heart of Zen is Daoist philosophy.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Magog,

Yes, zen is the merger of Taoism and buddhism; it is all about being HERE-NOW!

Love & rgds

 

[swamplizard]

Greetings fellow beings,

I only wish to acknowledge and extend my appreciation toward each of the contributors of this thread.

best regards,
swampy

 

[zenzero]

Friend swamplizard,

Greetings fellow beings,
I only wish to acknowledge and extend my appreciation toward each of the contributors of this thread.
best regards,
swampy

Sorry you need to give the stamps of frubals as true sign of acknowledgement!!:flower::foryou:

Love & rgds