• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Zero-point energy

Ostronomos

Ostronomos

Well-Known Member
I read that space consists of electromagnetic fields and matter is simply an excitation in the field or a traveling fluctuation.

It just goes to show that we cannot trust our senses when it comes to discernment.
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
What has this to do with ZP energy?

Zero-point energy is the lowest energy that a quantum mechanical physical system may possess

Also consider the 1st law of thermodynamics
 
exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
Ostronomos said:
I read that space consists of electromagnetic fields and matter is simply an excitation in the field or a traveling fluctuation.

It just goes to show that we cannot trust our senses when it comes to discernment.
Click to expand...
Modelling matter as excitations of fields is indeed the basis of quantum field theory - which I know little about. But these fields are not electromagnetic.

And as @ChristineM says, zero point energy is something else entirely, being simply the energy of the ground state of a quantum mechanical system.
 
Ostronomos

Ostronomos

Well-Known Member
I'm drawn in to the glitz and glamor of the scientific industry. I love the pursuit of knowledge but it is proving to be quite challenging.
 
Agent Smith

Agent Smith

Member
I have a sneaking suspicion that zero-point energy doesn't mean 0 Joules. Quantum systems, I know of no other way to describe the quantum world, are, for some reason, always described as "fluctuating", which conjures up images of waviness in, perhaps this case, energy levels. Maybe one of these random squiggles simply "spiral outta control" and boom, a universe is birthed!

Ad usum Delphini :p:D (Demathed)
 
exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
Agent Smith said:
I have a sneaking suspicion that zero-point energy doesn't mean 0 Joules. Quantum systems, I know of no other way to describe the quantum world, are, for some reason, always described as "fluctuating", which conjures up images of waviness in, perhaps this case, energy levels. Maybe one of these random squiggles simply "spiral outta control" and boom, a universe is birthed!

Ad usum Delphini :p:D (Demathed)
Click to expand...
Zero point energy is the energy remaining in the ground state of any quantum system.

A simple example is the electron in a hydrogen atom. The lowest energy state one could imagine for that would be with the electron stationary, (i.e. with no kinetic energy), and touching the nucleus (i.e. with zero electrostatic potential energy). But such a state does not exist. The lowest energy state is the 1s orbital, in which the electron still has both kinetic and electrostatic potential energy.

Same goes for the vibration of the chemical bond between 2 atoms. Classically, the minimum energy state would be when there is no vibration at all. But that state does not exist. In the ground vibrational state there is still some vibrational motion.

This is true even at absolute zero.
 
Last edited:
Agent Smith

Agent Smith

Member
exchemist said:
Zero point energy is the energy remaining in the ground state of any quantum system.

A simple example is the electron in a hydrogen atom. The lowest energy state one could imagine for that would be with the electron stationary, (i.e. with no kinetic energy), and touching the nucleus (i.e. with zero electrostatic potential energy). But such a state does not exist. The lowest energy state is the 1s orbital, in which the electron still has both kinetic and electrostatic potential energy.

Same goes for the vibration of the chemical bond between 2 atoms. Classically, the minimum energy state would be when there is no vibration at all. But that state does not exist. In the ground vibrational state there is still some vibrational motion.

This is true even at absolute zero.
Click to expand...
In a way then, at least within the universe of discourse defined as quantum energy states, 0 does not exist! Assuming this lowest energy state when the electron is in its ground state is 1.03 J then, 0 = 1.03 (it's like starting to count from 1.3). Correct/incorrect/both/neither? :astonished:

Do nfr things.
 
Ostronomos

Ostronomos

Well-Known Member
Agent Smith said:
In a way then, at least within the universe of discourse defined as quantum energy states, 0 does not exist! Assuming this lowest energy state when the electron is in its ground state is 1.03 J then, 0 = 1.03 (it's like starting to count from 1.3). Correct/incorrect/both/neither? :astonished:

Do nfr things.
Click to expand...
It is interesting that this thread drew you Agent Smith.

Permit me to explore this topic from a tangential point of view.

We can surmise that when the transcendent, non-anthropomorphic God created the universe, He had to withdraw Himself from it, resulting in what is commonly known as deism.

The etheric energy of this God is what provides every universe with the energy necessary for symmetry breaking.
 
exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
Agent Smith said:
In a way then, at least within the universe of discourse defined as quantum energy states, 0 does not exist! Assuming this lowest energy state when the electron is in its ground state is 1.03 J then, 0 = 1.03 (it's like starting to count from 1.3). Correct/incorrect/both/neither? :astonished:

Do nfr things.
Click to expand...
Well energy is just book keeping so you can set the ground state to zero if you want and measure everything from there.
 
W

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Zero-point energy (ZPE) is the lowest possible energy that a quantum mechanicalsystem may have. Unlike in classical mechanics, quantum systems constantly fluctuatein their lowest energy state as described by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.[1]
Click to expand...
The uncertainty principle, also known as Heisenberg's indeterminacy principle, is a fundamental concept in quantum mechanics. It states that there is a limit to the precision with which certain pairs of physical properties, such as position and momentum, can be simultaneously known. In other words, the more accurately one property is measured, the less accurately the other property can be known.

More formally, the uncertainty principle is any of a variety of mathematical inequalities asserting a fundamental limit to the product of the accuracy of certain related pairs of measurements on a quantum system, such as position, x, and momentum, p.[1] Such paired-variables are known as complementary variables or canonically conjugate variables.
Click to expand...
Both of these concept can be explained with a simple addendum to classic theory and changing a basic assumption from the 1920's that is still with us. Einstein's theory of General Relativity altered the way we looked at space-time. It was previously thought to be flat; static and rigid, but Einstein showed that space-time could curve, bend, stretch, via gravity; General Relativity. Although the bending of space-time is still accepted today, and is widely proven, nobody until now has postulated that space-time can not only be bent, but it can also be broken into two; independent space and independent time. I call it the Heisenberg Certainty Principle.

Heisenberg states that there is a limit at which connected pairs of physical properties, such as position and momentum can be simultaneously known. This assumes there is only connected space-time than can bend and stretch. If you also assume space-time can also separate into two, you have an explanation for why we have the uncertainty principle and as well as why there are fluctuations in zero point energy. If space and time are acting separated, paired variable connected to space and time, will not be exactly related. The uncertainty comes from assuming space-time is unbreakable.

Energy requires time; frequency and space; wavelength to be connected. If we could break time and space apart, energy cannot exist, unless time and space bump, into each other, and temporarily remerge. This fluctuation shows space- time and separated space and time all existing together at the quantum level.

Entangled particles is about independent time, adding simultaneity, apart from the distance limitation and the speed of light.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
exchemist said:
Well energy is just book keeping so you can set the ground state to zero if you want and measure everything from there.
Click to expand...
And Feynman is attributed with the phrase, but I am having trouble finding it. Various quote sources of him do not list it. Finally I gave up and wrong "What physicist said "energy is just bookkeeping" and the first response was the Wiki article on Feynman. Though using the find function the word "bookkeeping" appeared only once and it was on another topic. My internet is broken:coldsweat:
 
exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
And Feynman is attributed with the phrase, but I am having trouble finding it. Various quote sources of him do not list it. Finally I gave up and wrong "What physicist said "energy is just bookkeeping" and the first response was the Wiki article on Feynman. Though using the find function the word "bookkeeping" appeared only once and it was on another topic. My internet is broken:coldsweat:
Click to expand...
I'm not sure who first said it but it's a saying I've come across quite often. As in bookkeeping, the energy before and after, or on the left side and the right, has to balance, since it is a conserved quantity. And we generally measure changes during some process, rather than trying to assess absolute amounts of energy.

There are lots of examples in which energy is set to zero in some arbitrary condition, so that changes relative to that condition can have their energy assessed. One is that the gravitational potential of a system of 2 bodies is set by convention to zero when they are at infinite separation. This has the slightly bizarre result that all gravitational potentials at finite distances apart are deemed to be -ve. But it's just a convention, adopted because infinite separation is the only condition at which the potential is the same regardless of the masses under consideration.
 
Last edited:
Agent Smith

Agent Smith

Member
exchemist said:
Well energy is just book keeping so you can set the ground state to zero if you want and measure everything from there.
Click to expand...
Is this like Planck constants? For instance lengths < the Planck length, "don't make sense" to (mathematical) physics? Kinda like restricting the domain of a (mathematical) function, oui?
 
B

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Agent Smith said:
In a way then, at least within the universe of discourse defined as quantum energy states, 0 does not exist!
Click to expand...

In the form of a nothing a zero 0.... sure, you are correct.
The proof is that it's impossible to create, find or measure a perfect vacuum.
cool thread but I am not going to dig into the many flavors written in this chain.

I prefer forgetting what i have already found out.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top