• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Zionism

Shermana

Heretic
Whatever you say... :rolleyes:
So all 6 million of the Jews that died in the holocaust were "unworthy" of salvation? I guess the ones that died in Stalin's pogroms were unworthy too. And every Jewish baby that dies when a Palestinian rocket hits a hospital. Is God just too busy to keep up with it all?

How about the ones butchered by the Babylonians and Assyrians and Philistines?

It's all about Karma and Past Lives. But this is a Theological question that is of very little (though perhaps some) relevance.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
How about the ones butchered by the Babylonians and Assyrians and Philistines?

It's all about Karma and Past Lives. But this is a Theological question that is of very little (though perhaps some) relevance.

Whatever... You can believe in divine justice if you want to, but it won't get you very far in the real world.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
What do you mean it won't get you very far?

I mean belief in and of itself doesn't get anyone anywhere. People only get what they're willing to take. Nothing's gonna be handed to you because you believe in an invisible sky-man, and he's not gonna help you take it, or keep it for that matter. The Israelis win every war they fight because they're smart people (and a US defense stipend doesn't hurt either). You can attribute their success to God, but that's just naive. The real power is in the individual and his/her ambitions.
 

Shermana

Heretic
I mean belief in and of itself doesn't get anyone anywhere. People only get what they're willing to take. Nothing's gonna be handed to you because you believe in an invisible sky-man, and he's not gonna help you take it, or keep it for that matter. The Israelis win every war they fight because they're smart people (and a US defense stipend doesn't hurt either). You can attribute their success to God, but that's just naive. The real power is in the individual and his/her ambitions.

My prayers have worked for me, saved my life, and brought me business opprotunities. You'd have to otherwise believe in extreme coincidences and random chance. There's no reason to call it Naive to attribute it to a Controlling Intelligence.

If you had the slightest inkling of the history of Israel and the military situation it has managed to overcome, you'd understand the phrase "If you want to be a realist, you have to believe in Miracles".
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Really bad example. Spain is more about regional patriotism than most countries.

Never say to a Catalan that he's spanish.
Or a Basque.

I am a Basque... I never said I was Spanish; I said we don't deserve our own country by right of being Basque.
 
Last edited:

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
My prayers have worked for me, saved my life, and brought me business opprotunities. You'd have to otherwise believe in extreme coincidences and random chance. There's no reason to call it Naive to attribute it to a Controlling Intelligence.

If you had the slightest inkling of the history of Israel and the military situation it has managed to overcome, you'd understand the phrase "If you want to be a realist, you have to believe in Miracles".

Extreme coincidences and random chance are a lot more believable than an invisible space-man who loves everybody, but loves the Jews just a little more. Why is it so difficult for people to believe they've accomplished something on their own?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I would take continuous occupation off the list as well, otherwise they wouldn't have needed 1,2, or 5 in order to create the state of Israel. I'm not even going to talk about number 7.
Yet they have been in that same land for 4000 years. I was giving several different reasons people lay claim or give title to land. They are not all applicable nor are they to all be thought of as one argument. I was saying no matter what standard is used (and they all have been separately or in different combinations) Israel has the best claim to the land. You made a contention that is not applicable nor even accurate.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Jewish supremacy...
That is not the point. Those are ways in which rights to land have been granted or claimed. You are missing the point. It makes no difference what you think about each individual standard, in none of them does Palestine have the stronger case. You must show that either Palestine has a stronger case in one of those areas or in an area that has supremacy to have an argument.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I don't have to make a list; I never claimed Palestine had any rights to the land. You're giving me a burden of proof for a claim I never made, and you still have yet to understand this.
If Israel occupies land that Palestine has no right to in what way is this a problem?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I knew that already. Doesn't mean he doesn't hold a bias towards the Jewish side of the debate and constantly say they're superior to Muslims.
I have the opinion Jewish people have done more with the land of Israel and have acted more honorably (not perfectly) than the Muslim's and Palestinians in the area because facts without end demonstrate that. That however has nothing to do with rights to land or existence. Do you wish lists of these facts?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I second that.

Ive noticed the bias towards everything Muslim..:yes:
I have never made it a secret I do not like Islam. I think it man-made, without any divine source, and do not think Muhammad was any kind of prophet. That however has nothing to do with the issues regarding who has rights to the land. I have no problem pointing out what Israel has done with the land in comparison with their violent Islamic neighbors or that Palestinians have no right to the land of Israel but the mistake is mixing the two together. Their right to the land has little to do with Islam. I have no problem debating either point but the mixing of them together is not an accurate representation of my position. I also think bias is the wrong word. I think Islam a false religion based on evidence. Bias implies I think it bad in spite of the evidence and that is not the case.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Why is it that ethnic claiming of land, and the forced removal of a population from land based on ethnicity is seen as an evil that must be stopped or prevented everywhere but Israel?
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
I have the opinion Jewish people have done more with the land of Israel and have acted more honorably (not perfectly) than the Muslim's and Palestinians in the area because facts without end demonstrate that...

Sounds like the same excuses used in the forced evictions of Native Americans.
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
Why is it that ethnic claiming of land, and the forced removal of a population from land based on ethnicity is seen as an evil that must be stopped or prevented everywhere but Israel?
What ethnicity claimed Israel?
What ethnicity has been forcibly removed?
What ethnicity's have been prevented or stopped from being removed anywhere else in the world?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Sounds like the same excuses used in the forced evictions of Native Americans.
I am a native American (Cherokee) and your claims are way way to general. In the East the Indians had full rights to their land but they and the Europeans always began well enough but the mutual distrust would not allow the slightest mistake and eventually it would erupt into conflict. Sometimes the Indians were at fault and sometimes the White's but the East is the only place where the Indians had a good argument for their repossession of the land. In the mid west (the classic Indian wars) the Indians that occupied the land had only been there a short time before the Whites arrived. They had butchered and massacred their fellow Indians buy the thousands and taken the land. The Sioux for example killed off something like 6 tribes for the Dakota's. The entire civilization's were war like. The greatest possible accomplishment for a young man was to touch an enemy in war. They lived to fight and were far more savage than the Europeans. The only legitimate complaint available to the mid west Indians were that whites were far better at taking land than they were and that is saying something. The whites unlike the Sioux, Apache, Arapaho, Arikara, Pawnee, etc did not offer anything for the lands they took from their neighbors and considered theft (especially horses) a virtue. The south western Indian and Indian Mexican mixed tribes almost wiped out the agriculturally based Indian that actually had the rights to the land. Actually I am getting way off topic and this requires far more explanation than I have time for but it in no way is equal to the internationally granted rights to Israel being given to Israel. There is also no parallel to Palestine's refusal of the land rant they had no right to, to begin with. I would love to get into this but am short on time currently.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
What ethnicity claimed Israel?
What ethnicity has been forcibly removed?
What ethnicity's have been prevented or stopped from being removed anywhere else in the world?

Non-jewish semitic people are forcibly removed from land that is then given to Jewish semitic peoples to settle and populate.
Non-jewish semitic people are given less rights than Jewish semitic people.
Israel maintains a policy of separation in law between Non-jewish semitic people and Jewish semitic people.

Nelson Mandela, who had a lifetime of experience in living in an apartheid state, acknowledged that Israel will never be a democracy as long as it practices apartheid.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
I am a native American (Cherokee) and your claims are way way to general. In the East the Indians had full rights to their land but they and the Europeans always began well enough but the mutual distrust would not allow the slightest mistake and eventually it would erupt into conflict. Sometimes the Indians were at fault and sometimes the White's but the East is the only place where the Indians had a good argument for their repossession of the land. In the mid west (the classic Indian wars) the Indians that occupied the land had only been there a short time before the Whites arrived. They had butchered and massacred their fellow Indians buy the thousands and taken the land. The Sioux for example killed off something like 6 tribes for the Dakota's. The entire civilization's were war like. The greatest possible accomplishment for a young man was to touch an enemy in war. They lived to fight and were far more savage than the Europeans. The only legitimate complaint available to the mid west Indians were that whites were far better at taking land than they were and that is saying something. The whites unlike the Sioux, Apache, Arapaho, Arikara, Pawnee, etc did not offer anything for the lands they took from their neighbors and considered theft (especially horses) a virtue. The south western Indian and Indian Mexican mixed tribes almost wiped out the agriculturally based Indian that actually had the rights to the land. Actually I am getting way off topic and this requires far more explanation than I have time for but it in no way is equal to the internationally granted rights to Israel being given to Israel. There is also no parallel to Palestine's refusal of the land rant they had no right to, to begin with. I would love to get into this but am short on time currently.


I would suggest you look beyond your high school American history books.
 
Top