Zionism

[I.S.L.A.M617]

The problem is that "Apartheid" is a term that can apply to just about anything. Numerous countries have some kind of separation of people based on race and caste. America has affirmative action, therefore America is apartheid. The problem is that people try to attach venom to the word when they fling it at Israel as if by calling it "Apartheid' it somehow is supposed to provoke feelings of condemnation among those who otherwise couldn't care less about any other country or race on Earth.

Apartheid refers to PHYSICAL separation of ethnic groups. Like having an Arab district and a Jewish district. America doesn't have areas where people of certain ethnic groups are REQUIRED to live.

 

[1robin]

How many times do I have to say it before you stop asking the exact same question? I DON'T CARE that Israel occupies the land. They can keep it. It's the pretentious claim that it is their land by Biblical mandate as "God's chosen people" and that they somehow deserve their own country.

When we began this discussion I made only secular arguments. If your only complaint is the Biblical connection on what basis do you contend Zionism is wrong in my secular contexts? Israel is currently one of the most secular countries on Earth.

You have been claiming to have been misunderstood in several different discussions. I have not replied but want you to know I do not think that the case and have reviewed to make sure. I think your position is so flawed and your stance so ambiguous that you might believe that but while I do make mistakes I never take anything out of context or distort things intentionally and I have had no need in our discussion anyway. However to avoid even the claim in the future, why don't you put the summary of your position is a simple list form like I have many times. IMO you are the one that is distorting your claims (at least in our discussion, I make no claims about others) and would rather discuss the issues if you can simply, quickly, and clearly state them. Do you believe Israel has a right to the land they occupy? If not then who does? Why?

 

[1robin]

deja vu all over again... I understand your point of view perfectly fine. I never disputed the achievements of the Israelis. They have done a lot in the area; I never once brought up "improper use" of the land as an argument, but you seem to think I have. The only claims I've disputed are that Israel is holding land ONLY for defense purposes (even though they build houses on it:sarcastic), and that the Jews are somehow entitled to a homeland. You have yet to say anything about houses on land being held strictly for military posturing, in favor of skipping over that to recycle the same argument about stuff I never disputed...

What are you talking about? My response was to monotheist101 not you. It was only for clarification of someone pointing out ONE OF SEVERAL possible rights to the land criteria I mentioned. I will assume you made the mistake of thinking this was directed at you and wait for your summary list before I contend it. Whatever firm stance you have concerning Israel since 1948, put on the list in clear terms so no confusion results.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I am not sure of the "halachic" status of the Law of Return in Israel. It seems to have become more lenient in the last 20 years or so.
But, for the sake of argument, I believe the answer is yes - under the Law of Return, any Jew can claim the right, more or less, to be a citizen of the State of Israel.
And this is relevant.... why?

Ethnic preferential treatment.

Different laws for different ethnicities. (Jewish vs. non-Jewish)

 

[moodys]

It's glaringly obvious that Israel has no intention of giving any land over to Palestinian sovereignty, in particular Benjamin who spent his entire life insisting that Palestinians have no right to any land west of the Jordan river. The US should not continue to pretend a peace deal is possible when it it will never happen, we should just stay out of it.

 

[tumbleweed41]

There is no occupied territory as there never was a Palestine but for the sake of the argument, if Palestine is a separate entity which voted for a prime minister how can Israel be an apartheid state? you are asking not to point fingers but yet you segregate Israel in to a category of its own. So arabs get to vote twice? why? because Jews are involved?

you are either a liar or you need to get a clue.

There never was a Palestine?
What happened to 1946? What can you tell me about the UN partition plan of 1947?
Non-Jewish semitic people in Israel and in the occupied lands live under separate laws than Jewish Semitic peoples. This is an undeniable fact.

Do you think if you deny it, it never was?

The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina. -- Exodus 15:14
Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken : for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. -- Isaiah 14:29
Howl , O gate; cry , O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved : for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. -- Isaiah 14:31
Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine?will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will Ireturn your recompence upon your own head; -- Joel 3:4

 

[tumbleweed41]

Apartheid refers to PHYSICAL separation of ethnic groups. Like having an Arab district and a Jewish district. America doesn't have areas where people of certain ethnic groups are REQUIRED to live.

What is sad is when Israeli Jews force non-Jewish semitic people to live in ghettos, it's OK. But when a certain Europiean country did it to Jewish semitics..........

 

[Shermana]

There never was a Palestine?
What happened to 1946? What can you tell me about the UN partition plan of 1947?
Non-Jewish semitic people in Israel and in the occupied lands live under separate laws than Jewish Semitic peoples. This is an undeniable fact.

Do you think if you deny it, it never was?

The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina. -- Exodus 15:14
Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken : for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. -- Isaiah 14:29
Howl , O gate; cry , O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved : for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. -- Isaiah 14:31
Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine?will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will Ireturn your recompence upon your own head; -- Joel 3:4

The "Mandate of Palestine" is much different than the concept of an Arab-identity country of "Palestine". Back then, to be "Palestinian", you could be White, Turkish, Chinese, Jewish, Indian, or Arab. Only since 1967 has the word "Palestinian" meant "exclusively Arab nation of the region". The word "Palestine" could be an equally fit name for the Jewish state.

There has never been an actual entity of an independent, sovereign country called "Palestine" since the days that the Philistines themselves ruled the area, and most certainly not one that has been an Arab-ethnic state as the Palestinians want for an Arab-ethnic state.

 

[Shermana]

Ethnic preferential treatment.

Different laws for different ethnicities. (Jewish vs. non-Jewish)

What do you think the reason is that Israeli Arabs are treated differently than "Palestinians"? Why do you suppose that these two people of the same ethnicity get different treatment?

What country on Earth do you think would tolerate an armed separatist movement and the populace that rallies under its banner that has been mostly at war with the state since its inception? Name one.

What is sad is when Israeli Jews force non-Jewish semitic people to live in ghettos, it's OK. But when a certain Europiean country did it to Jewish semitics..........

Yep, absolutely no difference between the situation of the Germans and the Jews and the Palestinians and the Jews. Totally equal comparison. No context or geopolitical issues at all. And forget the fact that these same people were in fact trying to ethnically cleanse the Jews out of the land all that time and their leaders were directly allied with Hitler himself, that has nothing to do with anything.

 

[tumbleweed41]

The "Mandate of Palestine" is much different than the concept of an Arab-identity country of "Palestine". Back then, to be "Palestinian", you could be White, Turkish, Chinese, Jewish, Indian, or Arab.

There has never been an actual entity of an independent, sovereign country called "Palestine" since the days that the Philistines themselves ruled the area, and most certainly not one that has been an Arab-ethnic state as the Palestinians want for an Arab-ethnic state.

From Herodotus, 5th Century BCE 'The Histories';
"...they live in the coastal parts of Syria; and that region of Syria and all that lies between it and Egypt is called Palestine." (VII.89)

There is more, shall I find it for you?

And it seems that the excuses of, "there never was a Palestine" are being used to justify the current human rights violations.

 

[Shermana]

From Herodotus, 5th Century BCE 'The Histories';
"...they live in the coastal parts of Syria; and that region of Syria and all that lies between it and Egypt is called Palestine." (VII.89)

There is more, shall I find it for you?

And it seems that the excuses of, "there never was a Palestine" are being used to justify the current human rights violations.

You seem to be not understanding.

The name "Palestine" does not refer to an exclusively Arab state. It refers to the region ruled by the Philistines. The Arabs are not Philistines. As I made more clear in my edit before you posted, there has never been a "Palestine" that has been ruled by an Arab majority. It has been a territorial province or split into Viliyets. Like I said, the name "Palestine", by the same use of the term, could be an equally fitting term for the region ruled by Jews. "Palestine" would be an apt name for Israel all the same, as the name simply implies the region of the land. You simply have to take into account why it was called "Palastina" by the Romans in the first place.

So no, there has never been such thing as a "Palestine" in the way that the modern "Palestinians" are wanting it to be. Does that make better sense?

 

[tumbleweed41]

What do you think the reason is that Israeli Arabs are treated differently than "Palestinians"? Why do you suppose that these two people of the same race get different treatment?

Can a Israeli Jew marry an non-Jewish Semite under Israeli law?
(Just one small example)

 

[Shermana]

Can a Israeli Jew marry an non-Jewish Semite under Israeli law?
(Just one small example)

Not in Israel, but they can in Cyprus.

A small minor inconvenience.

But that's not what I was talking about when comparing the Palestinians to the Israeli-Arabs.

So again, what do you think is the reason for the difference in treatment between Israeli Arabs and Palestinian Arabs? Would could that reason possibly be.....

 

[tumbleweed41]

You seem to be not understanding.

The name "Palestine" does not refer to an exclusively Arab state. It refers to the region ruled by the Philistines. The Arabs are not Philistines. As I made more clear in my edit before you posted, there has never been a "Palestine" that has been ruled by an Arab majority. It has been a territorial province or split into Viliyets. Like I said, the name "Palestine", by the same use of the term, could be an equally fitting term for the region ruled by Jews. "Palestine" would be an apt name for Israel all the same, as the name simply implies the region of the land. You simply have to take into account why it was called "Palastina" by the Romans in the first place.

So no, there has never been such thing as a "Palestine" in the way that the modern "Palestinians" are wanting it to be. Does that make better sense?

Herodotus was Greek, not Roman, and wrote the Histories about 400 years before the Roman Empire.

Ironically, there has never been an Israel in the way modern Israelis seem to want it.

But, how does this relate to modern Israeli apartheid?

 

[Moishe3rd]

Ethnic preferential treatment.

Different laws for different ethnicities. (Jewish vs. non-Jewish)

Rights of citizenship does not equal different laws for citizens.
Again, both your terminology and your analogies are incorrect.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Can a Israeli Jew marry an non-Jewish Semite under Israeli law?
(Just one small example)

Nor may a Arab Muslim marry an Arab Christian under Israeli law.
Israeli law only recognizes those marriage that the religious authority of whatever religion it is, also recognizes.
However, all marriages of Israelis outside of the State of Israel are recognized under Israeli law.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Not in Israel, but they can in Cyprus.

A small minor inconvenience.

Like in 50's America when a black could not marry a white in Alabama, but they could go to another state.
A small minor inconvenience.

But that's not what I was talking about when comparing the Palestinians to the Israeli-Arabs.

So again, what do you think is the reason for the difference in treatment between Israeli Arabs and Palestinian Arabs? Would could that reason possibly be.....

Are you aware that Arab citizens of Israel are defined by the Israeli government as non-Jewish Israeli citizens whose cultural, linguistic and/or ethnic identity is Palestinian?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Rights of citizenship does not equal different laws for citizens.
Again, both your terminology and your analogies are incorrect.

Semantics.

I wonder what the outcry would be if only white Christians were allowed automatic citizenry to America?

 

[Juhurka]

There never was a Palestine?
What happened to 1946? What can you tell me about the UN partition plan of 1947?
Non-Jewish semitic people in Israel and in the occupied lands live under separate laws than Jewish Semitic peoples. This is an undeniable fact.

Do you think if you deny it, it never was?

The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina. -- Exodus 15:14
Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken : for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. -- Isaiah 14:29
Howl , O gate; cry , O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved : for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. -- Isaiah 14:31
Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine?will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will Ireturn your recompence upon your own head; -- Joel 3:4

You have not answered my question, you claimed that Israel is apartheid and I challenged that but you ignored and continued with your lies.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Do you believe Israel has a right to the land they occupy? If not then who does? Why?

OK, plain, simple summary. No lists necessary. I do not believe Israel has a right to the land they occupy. There is no "who does?". Nobody has a right to any land. The "why" is simple; the world belongs to everybody. I don't see what's "flawed" or "ambiguous" about the claim that nobody's more important than anyone else.