Zionism

[Moishe3rd]

Semantics.

I wonder what the outcry would be if only white Christians were allowed automatic citizenry to America?

Gee, I wonder what the outcry would be if anyone born on American soil were allowed automatic citizenship in America?
:faint:

Then again, I am sure that the world would gasp with horror if a country such as Saudi Arabia only allowed Muslims to become citizens at all... well, not citizens, exactly; more like vassals of the Kingdom...
But, you're probably right - Israel should loosen up and become more like the democracies of.... umm.. Germany? Well.... umm, Japan?
Oh hell - maybe Israel should just stop letting Jews be citizens.... Sure. That's the ticket...

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

It's glaringly obvious that Israel has no intention of giving any land over to Palestinian sovereignty, in particular Benjamin who spent his entire life insisting that Palestinians have no right to any land west of the Jordan river. The US should not continue to pretend a peace deal is possible when it it will never happen, we should just stay out of it.

Agreed. They're God's chosen people right? What do they need our help for?

 

[Shermana]

Herodotus was Greek, not Roman, and wrote the Histories about 400 years before the Roman Empire.

Ironically, there has never been an Israel in the way modern Israelis seem to want it.

But, how does this relate to modern Israeli apartheid?

You're the one who brought up the issue of "never been a Palestine".

I said that the land was called such as a region where the Philistines lived at the time. So, obviously I was referring to Herodotus' time when I said that. When I said "You have to take into account why the Romans called it Palastina", that was in reference to a separate time. Hope I made myself clear this time.

But how does this relate at all to what I even said in response to what you said? Why aren't you addressing what I said in addressing what you addressed?

 

[Shermana]

Like in 50's America when a black could not marry a white in Alabama, but they could go to another state.
A small minor inconvenience.

Let me add some tears :sad4:

A small minor inconvenience indeed. And apparently the best you got. They can go to Cyprus and their marriage will be recognized. Could Black and White couples marry outside the State and have it be recognized back then?

Do you have any other inconveniences for Israeli Arabs other than the inability to marry a Jew in Israel? Personally I think that law is dumb, but it's not exactly a major human rights issue like how gays are treated by Palestinians for example.

Are you aware that Arab citizens of Israel are defined by the Israeli government as non-Jewish Israeli citizens whose cultural, linguistic and/or ethnic identity is Palestinian?

What does that have anything to do with what I said?

You gotta stop changing the subject and stick to the issue at hand, it seems you don't even remember the original point when you do this such as with the above post.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

What is sad is when Israeli Jews force non-Jewish semitic people to live in ghettos, it's OK. But when a certain Europiean country did it to Jewish semitics..........

Oh, come on. That's completely different :sarcastic

 

[Levite]

From Herodotus, 5th Century BCE 'The Histories';
"...they live in the coastal parts of Syria; and that region of Syria and all that lies between it and Egypt is called Palestine." (VII.89)

There is more, shall I find it for you?

And it seems that the excuses of, "there never was a Palestine" are being used to justify the current human rights violations.

If you want to go by the "Palestine" of Herodotus (otherwise sometimes translated as "Philistia," you will find that it basically comprised the Gaza Strip, with a few outpost towns up the Israeli coastline. It was so called because of the Philistines, who lived there. By the turn of the common era, there were no more Philistines; the name was merely a relic, and the area now encompassing the Gaza Strip, Israel, the West Bank, the eastern bank of the Jordan, and parts of the upper Sinai Peninsula, as a whole was referred to by the Romans as Judea.

In the aftermath of the failed Jewish revolts of the 60s and 130s CE, the Romans began exiling the Jews who lived there, and punitively renamed the land Syria Palestinia, which is where the Arabs and Turks who eventually conquered the area over the centuries following the demise of the Roman Empire got the name.

However, the mere fact of the territory having a holdover name from the Romans doesn't mean that there ever was a distinctively Arab "Palestinian" nationality. Anyone who lived in the area was indiscriminately referred to as "Palestininan," whether they were Arab, Turk, or European, whether Muslim, Christian, or Jew. Indeed, my Jewish stepmother, who was born in British Palestine, has "Palestinian" on her British birth certificate.

The concept of a distinctive Arab nationalist identity called "Palestinian" is a creation of revolutionary Arab political and paramilitary groups of the 1950s and 1960s. There is no prior historical incidence of this idea, and certainly no historical connections to the Philistines.

If there truly are avoidable human rights violations during peacetime that are being committed by Israel-- and not just more propaganda from the Hamas or the PLO-- then the fact that "Palestinian" as it is currently being used is a recent invention does not, in and of itself, justify them. But I do not believe that it is being so used, if such violations are being committed intentionally.

 

[tumbleweed41]

There are at least 20 Laws in Israel that privilege Jews over Arabs. I have mentioned a couple, like the marriage laws and the Law of Return, which grants automatic citizenship rights to Jews from anywhere in the world upon request, while denying that same right to Palestinians
The Basic Law of Human Dignity and Freedom states that Israel is the state of the "Jewish people," not its citizens.
Government resources are disproportionately directed to Jews over Arab citizens. Palestinians of Israel suffer the lowest living standards in the country.
Human Rights Watch has released an extensive study of Israel's policy of "separate, not equal" schools for Israeli Arab children, finding that "Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools. In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this."
At least 100 Palestinian villages in Israel, most of which pre-date the founding of Israel, are not recognized by the Israeli government, are not listed on Israeli maps and receive no public services such as water, electricity, sanitation etc. Over 70,000 Palestinians live in these unrecognized and invisible villages. At the same time, hundreds of new Jewish towns are being established on lands confiscated from Palestinians in violation of the Geneva Convention.
4th Geneva Convention, Article 9
Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive...

No, I am not calling for the destruction of Israel, I am calling for Israel to fulfill the promise of democracy and basic human rights for all people. To remove the theocratic and ethnocentric elements from it's policies and be a true leader in equality.
But as long as Israel treats its own people, Arab and Jew, as separate and not equal, the threat of destruction from within will always remain.

 

[Juhurka]

There are at least 20 Laws in Israel that privilege Jews over Arabs. I have mentioned a couple, like the marriage laws and the Law of Return, which grants automatic citizenship rights to Jews from anywhere in the world upon request, while denying that same right to Palestinians
The Basic Law of Human Dignity and Freedom states that Israel is the state of the "Jewish people," not its citizens.
Government resources are disproportionately directed to Jews over Arab citizens. Palestinians of Israel suffer the lowest living standards in the country.
Human Rights Watch has released an extensive study of Israel's policy of "separate, not equal" schools for Israeli Arab children, finding that "Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools. In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this."
At least 100 Palestinian villages in Israel, most of which pre-date the founding of Israel, are not recognized by the Israeli government, are not listed on Israeli maps and receive no public services such as water, electricity, sanitation etc. Over 70,000 Palestinians live in these unrecognized and invisible villages. At the same time, hundreds of new Jewish towns are being established on lands confiscated from Palestinians in violation of the Geneva Convention.
4th Geneva Convention, Article 9
Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive...

No, I am not calling for the destruction of Israel, I am calling for Israel to fulfill the promise of democracy and basic human rights for all people. To remove the theocratic and ethnocentric elements from it's policies and be a true leader in equality.
But as long as Israel treats its own people, Arab and Jew, as separate and not equal, the threat of destruction from within will always remain.

With all the arab oil money its not like arabs cannot afford to support few more million brothers, Jews do not owe arabs anything and when countries like Saudi Arabia will change their laws to acomodate non-muslims maybe then Jews can take your words more seriously.

 

[1robin]

OK, plain, simple summary. No lists necessary. I do not believe Israel has a right to the land they occupy. There is no "who does?". Nobody has a right to any land. The "why" is simple; the world belongs to everybody. I don't see what's "flawed" or "ambiguous" about the claim that nobody's more important than anyone else.

Your original claims have dissolved into being firmly fixed on nothing. This kind of thinking went out with the hippies. In the world we actual find our selves living in "rights" to land, borders, and defense are a necessity and the list I provided is how these issues are determined and in all of them Israel has by far the best claim. Socialist utopias have proven to be failures and hippy communal living never worked. Since you seemed to have either abandoned your original points or I mistakenly thought you had any, I do not see the grounds for debate beyond border disputes and I showed that Gaza, the Sinai, the Suez canal, the West bank, and the Golan heights were all taken by Israel after attacks (most full scale wars) were launched from them. They are intended to provide defensible barriers and with Gaza, the canal, and the Sinai Israel's surrendering them only led to further attacks from them. I do not see any basis for contention between your current position and these facts.

 

[1robin]

There are at least 20 Laws in Israel that privilege Jews over Arabs. I have mentioned a couple, like the marriage laws and the Law of Return, which grants automatic citizenship rights to Jews from anywhere in the world upon request, while denying that same right to Palestinians
The Basic Law of Human Dignity and Freedom states that Israel is the state of the "Jewish people," not its citizens.
Government resources are disproportionately directed to Jews over Arab citizens. Palestinians of Israel suffer the lowest living standards in the country.
Human Rights Watch has released an extensive study of Israel's policy of "separate, not equal" schools for Israeli Arab children, finding that "Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools. In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this."
At least 100 Palestinian villages in Israel, most of which pre-date the founding of Israel, are not recognized by the Israeli government, are not listed on Israeli maps and receive no public services such as water, electricity, sanitation etc. Over 70,000 Palestinians live in these unrecognized and invisible villages. At the same time, hundreds of new Jewish towns are being established on lands confiscated from Palestinians in violation of the Geneva Convention.
4th Geneva Convention, Article 9
Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive...

No, I am not calling for the destruction of Israel, I am calling for Israel to fulfill the promise of democracy and basic human rights for all people. To remove the theocratic and ethnocentric elements from it's policies and be a true leader in equality.
But as long as Israel treats its own people, Arab and Jew, as separate and not equal, the threat of destruction from within will always remain.

Here are some facts to add to what you claim:

For the many readers who have requested a brief synopsis of the moral arguments in the Arab-Israeli conflict, I offer the following list of numerical data.
Number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Old Testament: over 700
Number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Koran: 0
Number of Arab leaders who visited Jerusalem when it was under Arab rule (1948 to 1967): 1
Number of Arab refugees who fled the land that became Israel: approximately 600,000
Number of Jewish refugees who fled Arab countries: approximately 600,000
Number of U.N. agencies that deal only with Palestinian refugees: 1
Number of U.N. agencies that deal with all the other refugees in the world: 1
Number of Jewish states that have existed on the land called Palestine: 3
Number of Arab or Muslim states that have existed on the land called Palestine: 0
Number of terrorist attacks by Israelis or Jews since 1967: 1
Number of terrorist attacks by Arabs or Muslims since 1967: thousands
Percentage of Jews who have praised the Jewish terrorist: approximately .1
Percentage of Palestinians who have praised Islamic terrorists: approximately 90
Number of Jewish countries: 1
Number of Jewish democracies: 1
Number of Arab countries: 19
Number of Arab democracies: 0
Number of Arab women killed annually by fathers and brothers in "honor killings": thousands
Number of Jewish women killed annually by fathers and brothers in "honor killings": 0
Number of Christian or Jewish prayer services allowed in Saudi Arabia: 0
Number of Muslim prayer services allowed in Israel: unlimited
Number of Arabs Israel allows to live in Arab settlements in Israel: 1,250,000
Number of Jews Palestinian Authority allows to live in Jewish settlements in Palestinian Authority: 0
Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning an Arab country for human-rights violations: 0
Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning Israel for human rights violations: 26
Number of U.N. Security Council resolutions on the Middle East between 1948 and 1991: 175
Number of these resolutions against Israel: 97
Number of these resolutions against an Arab state: 4
Number of Arab countries that have been members of the U.N. Security Council: 16
Number of times Israel has been a member of the U.N. Security Council: 0
Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning Israel: 322
Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning an Arab country: 0
Percentage of U.N. votes in which Arab countries voted with the United States in 2002: 16.6
Percentage of U.N. votes in which Israel voted with the United States in 2002: 92.6
Percentage of Middle East Studies professors who defend Zionism and Israel: approximately 1.
Percentage of Middle East Studies professors who believe in diversity on college campuses: 100
Percentage of people who argue that the Jewish state has no right to exist who also believe some other country has no right to exist: 0
Percentage of people who argue that of all the countries in the world, only the Jewish state has no right to exist and yet deny they are anti-Jewish: approximately 100
Number of Muslims in the world: more than 1 billion
Number of Muslim demonstrations against Islamic terror: approximately 2
Dennis Prager

A few have changed recently and a few are theological but all are interesting a effectively counter the spirit of what you posted and I can supply far more if needed.

 

[tumbleweed41]

With all the arab oil money its not like arabs cannot afford to support few more million brothers, Jews do not owe arabs anything and when countries like Saudi Arabia will change their laws to acomodate non-muslims maybe then Jews can take your words more seriously.

So what you are saying is, the country that bills itself as the lone Democracy in the Middle East will only represent Arabs within it's borders and occupied lands when the Monarchies and Dictatorships also do so.

The problem is that your bigotry still sees Arabs as the "other" rather than fellow human beings. "Jews do not owe arabs anything...". As if basic humans rights are a debt owed.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Here are some facts to add to what you claim:

For the many readers who have requested a brief synopsis of the moral arguments in the Arab-Israeli conflict, I offer the following list of numerical data.
Number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Old Testament: over 700
Number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Koran: 0
Number of Arab leaders who visited Jerusalem when it was under Arab rule (1948 to 1967): 1
Number of Arab refugees who fled the land that became Israel: approximately 600,000
Number of Jewish refugees who fled Arab countries: approximately 600,000
Number of U.N. agencies that deal only with Palestinian refugees: 1
Number of U.N. agencies that deal with all the other refugees in the world: 1
Number of Jewish states that have existed on the land called Palestine: 3
Number of Arab or Muslim states that have existed on the land called Palestine: 0
Number of terrorist attacks by Israelis or Jews since 1967: 1
Number of terrorist attacks by Arabs or Muslims since 1967: thousands
Percentage of Jews who have praised the Jewish terrorist: approximately .1
Percentage of Palestinians who have praised Islamic terrorists: approximately 90
Number of Jewish countries: 1
Number of Jewish democracies: 1
Number of Arab countries: 19
Number of Arab democracies: 0
Number of Arab women killed annually by fathers and brothers in "honor killings": thousands
Number of Jewish women killed annually by fathers and brothers in "honor killings": 0
Number of Christian or Jewish prayer services allowed in Saudi Arabia: 0
Number of Muslim prayer services allowed in Israel: unlimited
Number of Arabs Israel allows to live in Arab settlements in Israel: 1,250,000
Number of Jews Palestinian Authority allows to live in Jewish settlements in Palestinian Authority: 0
Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning an Arab country for human-rights violations: 0
Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning Israel for human rights violations: 26
Number of U.N. Security Council resolutions on the Middle East between 1948 and 1991: 175
Number of these resolutions against Israel: 97
Number of these resolutions against an Arab state: 4
Number of Arab countries that have been members of the U.N. Security Council: 16
Number of times Israel has been a member of the U.N. Security Council: 0
Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning Israel: 322
Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning an Arab country: 0
Percentage of U.N. votes in which Arab countries voted with the United States in 2002: 16.6
Percentage of U.N. votes in which Israel voted with the United States in 2002: 92.6
Percentage of Middle East Studies professors who defend Zionism and Israel: approximately 1.
Percentage of Middle East Studies professors who believe in diversity on college campuses: 100
Percentage of people who argue that the Jewish state has no right to exist who also believe some other country has no right to exist: 0
Percentage of people who argue that of all the countries in the world, only the Jewish state has no right to exist and yet deny they are anti-Jewish: approximately 100
Number of Muslims in the world: more than 1 billion
Number of Muslim demonstrations against Islamic terror: approximately 2
Dennis Prager

A few have changed recently and a few are theological but all are interesting a effectively counter the spirit of what you posted and I can supply far more if needed.

Pretty numbers. Many having nothing to do with human rights in Israel, and many outright fibs. (Number of Muslim demonstrations against Islamic terror: approximately 2)

Let me give you some numbers.

1,519 Palestinian children killed by IDF actions since 2000
6,829 Palestinians killed by IDF actions since 2000
50,742 Palestinians injured IDF actions since 2000
8.5 million Per day in aid provided to Israel by the US in fiscal year 2013
65 UN Resolutions condemning Israeli actions between 1955 and 1992
27,000 Palestinian homes destroyed by Israel since 1967
269 Jewish only settlements and outposts on land forcibly taken from Palestinians


You can complain about Muslims and Arabs all you want. And I am no supporter of Islamic theocracies or terrorism. And I have gone on record in condemning Hamas and the Palestinian Authority in their treatment of Jews and Arabs they consider Jewish supporters.
But nothing you have stated excuses the actions of the State of Israel.

 

[Moishe3rd]

There are at least 20 Laws in Israel that privilege Jews over Arabs. I have mentioned a couple, like the marriage laws

Maybe you could explain that one again?
How do marriage laws privilege Jews over Arabs?
They do not.

and the Law of Return, which

grants automatic citizenship rights to Jews from anywhere in the world upon request, while denying that same right to Palestinians

No. As in all countries with special laws of citizenship - Israel does not grant automatic citizenship to ANYONE who is not Jewish. The Arabs called Palestinians have nothing to do with it. Can't be a Japanese Shintoist either....

The Basic Law of Human Dignity and Freedom states that Israel is the state of the "Jewish people," not its citizens.
Government resources are disproportionately directed to Jews over Arab citizens. Palestinians of Israel suffer the lowest living standards in the country.

You crack me up... The Arabs population of Israel enjoys the highest standard of living in the Middle East, if they choose to do so.... As a matter of fact, the Arabs called Palestinians also enjoy a higher standard of living than most of the Arabs of the Middle East...
It's called working for a living...

 

[Agnostisch]

Zionism is the opposite of white nationalism
what do you think ?

 

[tumbleweed41]

...


You crack me up... The Arabs population of Israel enjoys the highest standard of living in the Middle East, if they choose to do so.... As a matter of fact, the Arabs called Palestinians also enjoy a higher standard of living than most of the Arabs of the Middle East...
It's called working for a living...

High standard of living huh?
But not as high as Jewish citizens...

Government resources are disproportionately directed to Jews over Arab citizens. Palestinians of Israel suffer the lowest living standards in the country.
Human Rights Watch has released an extensive study of Israel's policy of "separate, not equal" schools for Israeli Arab children, finding that "Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools. In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this."
At least 100 Palestinian villages in Israel, most of which pre-date the founding of Israel, are not recognized by the Israeli government, are not listed on Israeli maps and receive no public services such as water, electricity, sanitation etc. Over 70,000 Palestinians live in these unrecognized and invisible villages. At the same time, hundreds of new Jewish towns are being established on lands confiscated from Palestinians in violation of the Geneva Convention.
4th Geneva Convention, Article 9
Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive...

.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Zionism is the opposite of white nationalism
what do you think ?

I see striking similarities.

 

[1robin]

Pretty numbers. Many having nothing to do with human rights in Israel, and many outright fibs. (Number of Muslim demonstrations against Islamic terror: approximately 2)

Yelling foul without justification for the declaration, really has no application. Even if there were 3 or even 10 additional demonstrations against Islamic terror by Islam it would not even remotely balance out the massive demonstrations in support of terrorist acts of the most despicable nature.

Let me give you some numbers.

1,519 Palestinian children killed by IDF actions since 2000
6,829 Palestinians killed by IDF actions since 2000
50,742 Palestinians injured IDF actions since 2000
8.5 million Per day in aid provided to Israel by the US in fiscal year 2013
65 UN Resolutions condemning Israeli actions between 1955 and 1992
27,000 Palestinian homes destroyed by Israel since 1967
269 Jewish only settlements and outposts on land forcibly taken from Palestinians

I notice my numbers concerned comparison between two things, and your only tell one side of each issue.

You can complain about Muslims and Arabs all you want. And I am no supporter of Islamic theocracies or terrorism. And I have gone on record in condemning Hamas and the Palestinian Authority in their treatment of Jews and Arabs they consider Jewish supporters.
But nothing you have stated excuses the actions of the State of Israel.

This would only be applicable if my claim was Israel is perfect. That is why I gave comparisons instead of numbers in a vacuum. In this world there exists no perfections to evaluate so relative values are the basis by which things are evaluated. My claim is that for all Israel's faults they have been by far the more honorable of the contending sides in the region and have by far the best claims to the land. I can wage what I believe would be an boring war of statistics with you but that is very tedious. On what basis do you claim what is in bold above is inaccurate?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Your original claims have dissolved into being firmly fixed on nothing. This kind of thinking went out with the hippies. In the world we actual find our selves living in "rights" to land, borders, and defense are a necessity and the list I provided is how these issues are determined and in all of them Israel has by far the best claim. Socialist utopias have proven to be failures and hippy communal living never worked. Since you seemed to have either abandoned your original points or I mistakenly thought you had any, I do not see the grounds for debate beyond border disputes and I showed that Gaza, the Sinai, the Suez canal, the West bank, and the Golan heights were all taken by Israel after attacks (most full scale wars) were launched from them. They are intended to provide defensible barriers and with Gaza, the canal, and the Sinai Israel's surrendering them only led to further attacks from them. I do not see any basis for contention between your current position and these facts.

I never said anything about communal living or Socialism... I'm not making an argument about what land belongs to Israel or how they got it... I don't know what's so hard to understand about my opinion. Do you purposely twist everything I say or just genuinely not understand?

 

[1robin]

I never said anything about communal living or Socialism... I'm not making an argument about what land belongs to Israel or how they got it... I don't know what's so hard to understand about my opinion. Do you purposely twist everything I say or just genuinely not understand?

Do you understand the concept of generalization? Your Earth belongs to everyone view is very similar to communism or Hippy communal concepts. No one is out to get you, no one is deviously twisting your already very ambiguous position, no one has the necessity and I sure do not have the desire to conspire against you. I have not the slightest idea what your firm stance is one this issue and have pretty much given up the effort. IMO the most accurate summary of your view on the issue is that you do not like the fact Israel is doing _____________________ Fill in the blank.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Do you understand the concept of generalization? Your Earth belongs to everyone view is very similar to communism or Hippy communal concepts. No one is out to get you, no one is deviously twisting your already very ambiguous position, no one has the necessity and I sure do not have the desire to conspire against you. I have not the slightest idea what your firm stance is one this issue and have pretty much given up the effort. IMO the most accurate summary of your view on the issue is that you do not like the fact Israel is doing _____________________ Fill in the blank.

Claim ownership, not rights. By "the world belongs to everybody" I meant nobody has an inherent right to any land. That doesn't mean we HAVE TO share it all. If aboriginal bushmen from Australia took interest in Israel, they'd have just as much (or as little, depending how you look at it) "right" to conquer it as the Israelis do. Nothing is so much more special about the Jews that they deserve their own homeland. Many people definitely would not equate that with communism.