Zionism

[1robin]

Claim ownership, not rights. By "the world belongs to everybody" I meant nobody has an inherent right to any land. That doesn't mean we HAVE TO share it all. If aboriginal bushmen from Australia took interest in Israel, they'd have just as much (or as little, depending how you look at it) "right" to conquer it as the Israelis do. Nothing is so much more special about the Jews that they deserve their own homeland. Many people definitely would not equate that with communism.

It is no wonder you believe people are misunderstanding you. Your claims are so unusual and hard to quantify it is like trying to read a book where the type has faded. As I cannot understand your position to the extent to justify further contention I will leave you with it for now.

 

[Levite]

There are at least 20 Laws in Israel that privilege Jews over Arabs. I have mentioned a couple, like the marriage laws and the Law of Return, which grants automatic citizenship rights to Jews from anywhere in the world upon request, while denying that same right to Palestinians
The Basic Law of Human Dignity and Freedom states that Israel is the state of the "Jewish people," not its citizens.
Government resources are disproportionately directed to Jews over Arab citizens. Palestinians of Israel suffer the lowest living standards in the country.
Human Rights Watch has released an extensive study of Israel's policy of "separate, not equal" schools for Israeli Arab children, finding that "Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools. In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this."
At least 100 Palestinian villages in Israel, most of which pre-date the founding of Israel, are not recognized by the Israeli government, are not listed on Israeli maps and receive no public services such as water, electricity, sanitation etc. Over 70,000 Palestinians live in these unrecognized and invisible villages. At the same time, hundreds of new Jewish towns are being established on lands confiscated from Palestinians in violation of the Geneva Convention.
4th Geneva Convention, Article 9
Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive...

No, I am not calling for the destruction of Israel, I am calling for Israel to fulfill the promise of democracy and basic human rights for all people. To remove the theocratic and ethnocentric elements from it's policies and be a true leader in equality.
But as long as Israel treats its own people, Arab and Jew, as separate and not equal, the threat of destruction from within will always remain.

Part of the problem here is that your objectives are at odds with one another. You say that you are not calling for the destruction of Israel, yet you are also expecting Israel to open its borders to mass importation of Arab populace and invite said populace to essentially overrun the institutions of power by flooding the electorate.

Israel is the Jewish State. It is there to be a homeland and safe space for Jews to exist, in their ancestral place. Allowing mass immigration of Arabs and disproportionate electoral power to non-Jews is a sure way to have Israel's Jewish character disappear in short order.

There is one small place (like, around the size of the US State of Delaware-- tiny) in the world that Jews wish to be a Jewish homeland. No one is saying non-Jews cannot live or be citizens there. But it must remain a Jewish place. If non-Jews object to living in a Jewish society under Jewish rule, why can they not choose to reside in any of the other parts of the 99.99999% of the planet that are not under Jewish rule and never will be?

 

[Flankerl]

I have mentioned a couple, like the marriage laws

So its discrimination against the Israeli Muslims that they cant marry Christians or Jews in Israel.

But doesnt that mean that its also discrimination against Israeli Jews that they cant marry Christians and Muslims in Israel?


So how can it be discrimination against one specific group of people when everyone "suffers" because of it?

and the Law of Return, which grants automatic citizenship rights to Jews from anywhere in the world upon request, while denying that same right to Palestinians

You know i live in germany and they have pretty much exactly what the Israelis have. Or rather Israel has what Germany has.

But why has Germany such a law? Because of WW2, the massive numbers of displaced/expelled Germans from mainly eastern Europe and Asian Russia(for those who "returned" at the end and after the Cold War).

Germany made itself the country for those ethnic Germans who had no place to live.
And with the Volga Germans they even took in people who often couldnt speak german.

 

[Juhurka]

So what you are saying is, the country that bills itself as the lone Democracy in the Middle East will only represent Arabs within it's borders and occupied lands when the Monarchies and Dictatorships also do so.

The problem is that your bigotry still sees Arabs as the "other" rather than fellow human beings. "Jews do not owe arabs anything...". As if basic humans rights are a debt owed.

Correct, Jews do not owe Arabs anything, any resident of a specific country sees all residents from another country as "OTHER" that is common sense, why does Israel need to feed and support citizens of another country? Israel did its part, it took Jews who were citizens of Arab countries (650,000 of them) Is that not enough? now Arabs with all their money can take on the obligation to feed and support their Arab brothers.

Just because Arabs are also human beings why should I let them in to my country? on what basis? If an Arab person wants to live in Israel (Jewish state) he is welcomed to do so but he is welcomed in to a Jewish state, not Muslim state. Jews are not losers, you cannot tell us to be human beings and open borders to people who want to see all of us dead. This is not righteousness this is a suicidal stupidity and that is something that is more relevant to the Arab world rather then Jewish world.

You seem to be comfortably hiding your negative attitude towards Israel with the so called human rights and human being ideas and that is not real honest on your part. I personally do not care what your attitude towards Israel is but it would be much appreciated if you would be honest about (that is what human beings should do) it and say it openly so that we can have an open discussion, otherwise we can go back and forth with no end.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Nobody owes anybody anything. If the Jews want to exclude the Arabs from their country that's fine; they just shouldn't claim to be superior to them, or deny the fact that the Arabs might take the land from them someday.

 

[Assad91]

Part of the problem here is that your objectives are at odds with one another. You say that you are not calling for the destruction of Israel, yet you are also expecting Israel to open its borders to mass importation of Arab populace and invite said populace to essentially overrun the institutions of power by flooding the electorate.

Israel is the Jewish State. It is there to be a homeland and safe space for Jews to exist, in their ancestral place. Allowing mass immigration of Arabs and disproportionate electoral power to non-Jews is a sure way to have Israel's Jewish character disappear in short order.

Hence forceful expulsion of Arabs in order to forcefully securesuch a "jewish homeland", right?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Israel is the Jewish State. It is there to be a homeland and safe space for Jews to exist, in their ancestral place. Allowing mass immigration of Arabs and disproportionate electoral power to non-Jews is a sure way to have Israel's Jewish character disappear in short order.

You can have a cultural identity without having a land dominated by Jewish law and order. There are plenty of ethnic groups who have managed to maintain an identity without their own sovereign state. What makes the Jews so important that the rest of the world MUST recognize their "right" to a sovereign state?

 

[Levite]

Hence forceful expulsion of Arabs in order to forcefully securesuch a "jewish homeland", right?

Israel is not forcefully expelling its Arab citizens.

 

[thau]

For or Against?

I am opposed to Zionism for 2 reasons:

1)The only reason the Jews were given Israel was because they were oppressed by the Nazis. I find it hypocritical that they would turn around and do essentially the same thing to the Palestinians.

2)Zionism claims that Israel belongs to the Jews by right of birth, but the majority of displaced Jews in Israel are of European descent and just happen to follow the Jewish religion. They have no more of a "blood" claim to Israel than I do.

Sorry, you have no case, and every honest citizen be he muslim, christian or non-practicing gentile knows this. You just have more pressing reasons not to admit to anything.

Nobody "gave" the Jews Israel. 30 years and more before the nazis ever existed many Jews were legally purchasing land from the Ottoman Empire, the rulers of the land known as Palestine but also included present day Iraq, syria, Jordan, Israel and more. The Jews also purchased land from rich absentee land owners, mostly Egyptians. The Palsestinian Arabs in the land that now occupies modern day Israel, the West Bank and Gaza were not affected in any way by the Jews purchasing land. Quite the opposite. Those Jews worked the land, cleared the swamp lands, built large argicultural operations, planted forests and started many businesses. The Palestinian Arabs, poor as they were, benefited by becoming employedd. So much was this a success that hundreds of thousands of Egyptians, Lebanese, Iraqi's et al. moved to Palestine to find work provided by Jewish operations. ---- move ahead (because I do not propose to offer a lengthy defense, just an anecdote) ----- 75% of Palestine is given exclusively to Arabs now known as Jordan. Half of the remaining is cordoned off for Palestinian sovereignity. Not good enough for the Arab rulers, of course. They have no claim as a nation, as a formal government ever, etc. But when the British pull out, seven Arab nations attack the tiny Jewish nation to destroy it. WHY??? THEY HAVE NO CAUSE! --- Anyway, YHWH protects His people and Israel survives. But all the Arabs who left Israel during the 1948 war are now called "Palestinian" refugees. Why? They are no more "palestinian" than the Jews who moved in at the same time. They are Egyptians and Iraqis, right? Like Golda Meier said: "What is a Palestinian?" It's all political B.S. and that's a shame because hundreds of thousands have either died or been hurt terribly by your ongoing antipathy towards the Jews.

 

[thau]

*edit*

I am Catholic as can be.

And your silence speaks volumes. (once again)

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I am Catholic as can be.

And your silence speaks volumes. (once again)

I've given every opinion I have on this issue already. It's all here for you to read... And being Catholic has nothing to do with the fact you think Jews have some divine superiority. You've already said it yourself; that's more than enough.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

What an interesting world we live in.

 

[thau]

I've given every opinion I have on this issue already. It's all here for you to read... And being Catholic has nothing to do with the fact you think Jews have some divine superiority. You've already said it yourself; that's more than enough.

I never used the phrase "divine superiority" nor do I claim it for the Jews.

Perhaps it is as simple as the nature of man to be envious of something given to another? G-d did not give you enough to be grateful? Salvation not enough?

The Jews were the Chosen People G-d chose to manifest Himself to the world, and far more importantly, the race from which the Messiah would come. Jesus, the son of G-d. That is why Satan hates the Jews interminably, and that, too, has been manifested throughout history since Abraham.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I never used the phrase "divine superiority" nor do I claim it for the Jews.

You just did claim it in this very post. You didn't use the actual words, but the 3rd little section there says it all.

Perhaps it is as simple as the nature of man to be envious of something given to another? G-d did not give you enough to be grateful? Salvation not enough?

I'm an atheist... I don't believe in god and you can keep your salvation...

The Jews were the Chosen People G-d chose to manifest Himself to world, and far more importantly, the race from which the Messiah would come from. Jesus. That is why Satan hates the Jews interminably, and that, too, has been manifested since Abraham.

This doesn't sound like a superiority complex to you? Also, FYI, the Jews view Satan to be a servant of god, not his mortal enemy. I've gathered from this little bit that conversation with you is worthless; you're way too far gone...

 

[thau]

You just did claim it in this very post. You didn't use the actual words, but the 3rd little section there says it all.


I'm an atheist... I don't believe in god and you can keep your salvation...


This doesn't sound like a superiority complex to you? Also, FYI, the Jews view Satan to be a servant of god, not his mortal enemy. I've gathered from this little bit that conversation with you is worthless; you're way too far gone...

You assume to represent all Jewish teachings hold that teaching on Satan?

I might imagine you can tweak and extract enough Scripture to make a case for atheism, too, if we only get to consider your submissions?

And so you are an atheist. Well who has time to debate that? A thousand supernatural manifestations pass your ears and eyes and the counter explanations and rebuttals trying to dismiss them run pale. But how does one debate an atheist without them taking offense? Not easy on these boards. So most of my arsenal lays dormant.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

You assume to represent all Jewish teachings hold that teaching on Satan?

How many Jews do you know that say Satan is God's mortal enemy? Jews are smart enough to know that if an all-powerful god exists, nobody is powerful enough to oppose him...

I might imagine you can tweak and extract enough Scripture to make a case for atheism, too, if we only get to consider your submissions?

Why would I use scripture I don't believe in to make a case for my atheism?

And so you are an atheist. Well who has time to debate that? A thousand supernatural manifestations pass your ears and eyes and the counter explanations and rebuttals trying to dismiss them run pale. But how does one debate an atheist without them taking offense? Not easy on these boards. So most of my arsenal lays dormant.

1)I've never experienced anything supernatural in my life, so there's nothing to dismiss. Superstitions from millenia past will do nothing to convince me otherwise. I have followed religion before, and realized there is nothing to it.
2)I highly doubt you could offend me, even if you tried.

 

[Assad91]

Israel is not forcefully expelling its Arab citizens.

Right. And they've never stolen land from the occupied territory

 

[Shermana]

Right. And they've never stolen land from the occupied territory

They haven't. Conquered territory taken in a defensive war is not stolen.

 

[Shermana]

Hence forceful expulsion of Arabs in order to forcefully securesuch a "jewish homeland", right?

How many Arabs have been forcefully expelled in the last 10 years? Got a statistic on that?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

They haven't. Conquered territory taken in a defensive war is not stolen.

I agree with this statement, although it can do without the word "defensive". There's no need to justify conquering something. The Israelis haven't "stolen" anything. The land is spoils of war, and the Arabs are more than welcome to attempt taking it back.