Zionism

[Shermana]

Canada (Quebec is a semi-autonomous state of separatists)
Spain (Navarre, Catalonia)
Italy (Vatican City)
Liberia (there's a different "president" everywhere you go in that country)
Sri Lanka (the Tamil Tigers)
Myanmar

This is just off the top of my head. If I actually did digging I could probably find a lot more.

Ummm, you know about Sri Lanka right? And Myanmar only recently made peace with the Karen.

Other than that, your examples have absolutely no comparison. The Catalans, (and I'm surprised you didn't mention basques) do not refuse Spanish citizenship and consider themselves part of a makeshift Catalonian/Basque authority, Vatican City was determined as a compromise to the "Rome Question" which went back to the Unification of Italy under Garibaldi decades later by Mussolini (who really didn't like the idea), and last I checked, no Quebecois have declared themselves to be not a part of Quebec and joining violent movements. I have no idea what your reference to Liberia is about.

Nothing close. Any of those.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Ummm, you know about Sri Lanka right? And Myanmar only recently made peace with the Karen.

Other than that, your examples have absolutely no comparison. The Catalans, (and I'm surprised you didn't mention basques) do not refuse Spanish citizenship and consider themselves part of a makeshift Catalonian/Basque authority, Vatican City was determined as a compromise to the "Rome Question" which went back to the Unification of Italy under Garibaldi decades later by Mussolini (who really didn't like the idea), and last I checked, no Quebecois have declared themselves to be not a part of Quebec and joining violent movements. I have no idea what your reference to Liberia is about.

Nothing close. Any of those.

I'm aware of the situation in Sri Lanka. I don't see what you're getting at though. So Myanmar doesn't count because it's recent ? I did mention the Basques,they're in Navarre. And they do have their own makeshift authority; do some reading... Have you never heard of Basque separatists? The Quebecois don't consider themselves CANADIAN; they know they're part of Quebec. You're always trying to weasel out of things... And they do have a separatist movement; it's just diplomatic rather than violent... "Hostile" means they're not accepting of the current authority; not necessarily that they're violent. And Vatican city is definitely a separate state within a country; I don't see why you would rule them out except to avoid taking a loss... Liberia's like a bunch of different tribal factions, all of whom claim leadership of the whole country.

 

[Shermana]

I'm aware of the situation in Sri Lanka. I don't see what you're getting at though. So Myanmar doesn't count because it's recent ? I did mention the Basques,they're in Navarre. And they do have their own makeshift authority; do some reading... Have you never heard of Basque separatists? The Quebecois don't consider themselves CANADIAN; they know they're part of Quebec. You're always trying to weasel out of things... And they do have a separatist movement; it's just diplomatic rather than violent... "Hostile" means they're not accepting of the current authority; not necessarily that they're violent. And Vatican city is definitely a separate state within a country; I don't see why you would rule them out except to avoid taking a loss...

Do you even understand the situation you're describing? The Karen have been at brutal war with the Burmese government for decades. They only recently settled terms in a deal that still maintained Burmese dominion. It's nothing close. They didn't set up a "Karen Authority" like with the PA. I wish the world condemned the Burmese a fraction what they condemn Israel about it.

What do you mean have I never heard of Basque Separatists? They can be very violent indeed. And the Spanish government does not tolerate them! They do tolerate however those who accept Spanish citizenship and are peaceful. Kinda like the Israeli Arabs. Get it?

Ok, so we have a "Diplomatic" and not "violent" separatist movement. So yeah, nothing close. Especially when they still consider themselves as part of the rule of the country in question, even if they are seeking autonomy. The Quebecois aren't setting up a provisional Quebecois government anywhere close to what the PLO and PA does. No comparison. None.

Did you even read what I said about Vatican City? It was settled decades before Mussolini actually implemented it before Italy was even a single country!!

Since I'm talking to someone who thinks "Forced expulsion" doesn't actually mean "Forcing people off the land itself" this may be difficult to get into concrete comparisons.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Do you even understand the situation you're describing? The Karen have been at brutal war with the Burmese government for decades. They only recently settled terms in a deal that still maintained Burmese dominion. It's nothing close. They didn't set up a "Karen Authority" like with the PA. I wish the world condemned the Burmese a fraction what they condemn Israel about it.

Fair enough. There is no separate authority, but there are different factions in the same country.

What do you mean have I never heard of Basque Separatists? They can be very violent indeed. And the Spanish government does not tolerate them! They do tolerate however those who accept Spanish citizenship and are peaceful. Kinda like the Israeli Arabs. Get it?

The government condemning them doesn't mean they aren't citizens of Spain... They are very much "tolerated" in that respect. They have more rights in Spain than the "accepting" Arabs have in Israel...

Ok, so we have a "Diplomatic" and not "violent" separatist movement. So yeah, nothing close. Especially when they still consider themselves as part of the rule of the country in question, even if they are seeking autonomy. The Quebecois aren't setting up a provisional Quebecois government anywhere close to what the PLO and PA does. No comparison. None.

They have a separate, semi-autonomous Quebecois government very similar to the PA; it's just not run by terrorists... And the Quebecois DO NOT consider themselves Canadian; that's the whole idea behind separatism . The fact that they aren't violent doesn't change anything about the actual setup.

Did you even read what I said about Vatican City? It was settled decades before Mussolini actually implemented it before Italy was even a single country!!

It's still a separate state within a country...

Since I'm talking to someone who thinks "Forced expulsion" doesn't actually mean "Forcing people off the land itself" this may be difficult to get into concrete comparisons.

Forced expulsion IS forcing people off of land... The people being forced off fighting for the land doesn't make it something different. You just refuse to concede any point made...

 

[Sha'irullah]

What I find funny is all of these peaceful Filistiniyyah debates with Filistinians and Zionists debating.
The Filistinians compared Filistine to the Apartheid in South Africa, Civil Rights in America and other countries but in all of these cases the people did not ask for a separate state they asked for equality. Filistinians do not ask for equality and Zionists know this yet they are mocked for not being fair and pro-human.
The Zionist response in all cases is entirely justified and rational no matter how hateful it seems. Zionism is just an equal force fighting violence with violence.

People fail to understand that Zionism was not created for no reason and it does not persist for no reason. It persists because of the thread placed against the Jews.

 

[Shermana]

Fair enough. There is no separate authority, but there are different factions in the same country.

Different factions, but still nonetheless citizens of the country. The issue of the Karen is quite an interesting one but it's much different.

The government condemning them doesn't mean they aren't citizens of Spain... They are very much "tolerated" in that respect. They have more rights in Spain than the "accepting" Arabs have in Israel...

Are you under the impression that the Palestinians want to be citizens of Israel in the first place? They've chosen to deny Israeli citizenship except for the few who have actively applied and try to force the existence of a separate entity as if it already exists, even though it doesn't. You can't even come close to comparing it to the issue of the Basques.

They have a separate, semi-autonomous Quebecois government very similar to the PA; it's just not run by terrorists... And the Quebecois DO NOT consider themselves Canadian; that's the whole idea behind separatism . The fact that they aren't violent doesn't change anything about the actual setup.

Are you seriously trying to say that the Quebecois have a similar deal to the PA? Please, by all means, demonstrate with proof somehow that the Quebecois have a provisional self-government that is at odds with the greater Canadian federation which oversees it in a comparable way to the Israeli situation.

It's still a separate state within a country...

Okay, and?

Forced expulsion IS forcing people off of land... The people being forced off fighting for the land doesn't make it something different. You just refuse to concede any point made...

What point made am I supposed to concede too? The other day you were trying to say that merely taking the land and shifting the ownership constitutes "forced expulsion" and I asked you several times to show a single link of statistics of Arabs in "Palestine" (Judea-Samaria) who have been forcefully expelled.

When you make an actual point which is of comparable value, I'll give you a caveat.

 

[Shermana]

What I find funny is all of these peaceful Filistiniyyah debates with Filistinians and Zionists debating.
The Filistinians compared Filistine to the Apartheid in South Africa, Civil Rights in America and other countries but in all of these cases the people did not ask for a separate state they asked for equality. Filistinians do not ask for equality and Zionists know this yet they are mocked for not being fair and pro-human.
The Zionist response in all cases is entirely justified and rational no matter how hateful it seems. Zionism is just an equal force fighting violence with violence.

People fail to understand that Zionism was not created for no reason and it does not persist for no reason. It persists because of the thread placed against the Jews.

And arguments against Zionism are basically an attempt to rewrite history, rewrite international law, and ignore basic facts on the ground in favor of some hypocritical and arbitrary view of "what should be" that completely ignores the basic rule of might makes right which is the basis of every other country, and it just so happens that the same rhetoric and level of venom we see against Zionism is pretty much never, ever, ever applied to any other state except the Jewish one. When the day comes that people care about Burma, Mexico, Turkey, Spain, China, Japan (Ainu) and other countries as much as Israel, then on that day they won't look like Jew-centric hypocrites. At the very least, they should all learn the basic history and the actual international law in question, and not just the Pallywood revisionist version, before mouthing off as if they have something authoritative to say on the matter.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Are you under the impression that the Palestinians want to be citizens of Israel in the first place? They've chosen to deny Israeli citizenship except for the few who have actively applied and try to force the existence of a separate entity as if it already exists, even though it doesn't. You can't even come close to comparing it to the issue of the Basques.

It's exactly the same thing... The Basque don't want to be citizens of Spain/France... They are actively trying to form their own sovereign state within the old territory of Vasconia. And my statement was that the Basque still have more rights in Spain than the few Arabs you speak of do in Israel. You can say there's a difference until you're blue in the face, but you sound ridiculous...

Are you seriously trying to say that the Quebecois have a similar deal to the PA? Please, by all means, demonstrate with proof somehow that the Quebecois have a provisional self-government that is at odds with the greater Canadian federation which oversees it in a comparable way to the Israeli situation.

The Quebec sovereignty movement (French: Mouvement souverainiste du Québec) refers to both the political movement and the ideology of values, concepts and ideas that promote the secession of the province of Quebec from the rest of Canada. While some historic affiliations to the movement suggested a violent, militarist revolution for the creation of a separate country, most groups seek to use negotiation-based diplomatic interventions, which would eventually lead to Quebec becoming a country. In 2012 the secessionist Parti Québécois was elected again to a minority government, with Pauline Marois becoming the first woman to be Premier of Quebec.[1][2]

The National Assembly of Quebec (French: Assemblée nationale du Québec) is the legislative body of the Province of Quebec. Legislators are called MNAs (Members of the National Assembly; French: députés). The Lieutenant Governor and the National Assembly compose the Parliament of Quebec, which operates in a fashion similar to those of other British-style parliamentary systems.
The National Assembly was formerly the lower house of Quebec's legislature and was then called the Legislative Assembly of Quebec. In 1968, the upper house, the Legislative Council, was abolished and the remaining house was renamed.
The current President of the National Assembly (equivalent to "speaker" in other legislatures) is Liberal MNA Jacques Chagnon.

They totally do have their own government... Even their own President and laws.

What point made am I supposed to concede too? The other day you were trying to say that merely taking the land and shifting the ownership constitutes "forced expulsion" and I asked you several times to show a single link of statistics of Arabs in "Palestine" (Judea-Samaria) who have been forcefully expelled.

Taking land and shifting ownership when the people that were originally there didn't volunteer to leave IS forceful expulsion. You'll just go to any lengths not to attach any negative stigma to the Jews...

 

[Shermana]

Okay, they didn't volunteer to leave, and they didn't have to leave. So, what's your point? You're going to any length to avoid actually bringing any statistics or data that demonstrates that they actually had to leave.

And no, it's not the same thing. Let me know when the Basques actively separate themselves into the "Basque Republic" under the "Basque Authority".

And please show me a link on this Quebecois thing. Last I checked, Quebec is just a regular ol' Province when it comes down to it.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Okay, they didn't volunteer to leave, and they didn't have to leave. So, what's your point? You're going to any length to avoid actually bringing any statistics or data that demonstrates that they actually had to leave.

You seem to be the only person disputing this fact... Tumbleweed posted a detailed report about it earlier in the thread which you completely disregarded. I'll link you to that in a second.

And no, it's not the same thing. Let me know when the Basques actively separate themselves into the "Basque Republic" under the "Basque Authority".

The current laws configure the autonomous community as a federation of the three constituent provinces, which had been ruled locally since their incorporation to Castile in 1200 by their own laws and institutions in what is known as the Foral System. These autonomous regimes, similar to the one for Navarre, were curtailed in the 19th century, largely suspended under Franco, but restored by the Spanish Constitution of 1978

Basque Country (autonomous community) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Well I'll be dipped in **** and rolled in bread crumbs!! Would you look at that?!
The current Basque separatist movement is to add the rest of the old Basque Country (including the part in France and Navarre) to the current autonomous community, which has its own government.

And please show me a link on this Quebecois thing. Last I checked, Quebec is just a regular ol' Province when it comes down to it.

On October 21, 2006, during the General Special Council of the Quebec wing of the Liberal Party of Canada initiated a national debate by adopting with more than 80% support a resolution calling on the Government of Canada to recognize the Quebec nation within Canada. A month later, the said resolution was taken to Parliament first by the Bloc Québécois, then by the Prime Minister of Canada, Stephen Harper. On November 27, 2006, the Canadian House of Commons passed a motion recognizing that the "Québécois form a nation within a united Canada".[7]

Quebec nationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2 for 2! What are the odds? Now will you stop treating me like I don't know what I'm talking about?

 

[Shermana]

You seem to be the only person disputing this fact... Tumbleweed posted a detailed report about it earlier in the thread which you completely disregarded. I'll link you to that in a second.

Didn't notice, didn't disregard. I'll take a look. You talking about this?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3407506-post452.html

"Land forcibly taken from Palestinians" isn't really "taken from Palestinians", more like land taken from Jordan. The fallacy of "Palestinian land" rears its head in such attempts at talking points.

Basque Country (autonomous community) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Well I'll be dipped in **** and rolled in bread crumbs!! Would you look at that?!
The current Basque separatist movement is to add the rest of the old Basque Country (including the part in France and Navarre) to the current autonomous community, which has its own government.

I'll look into that and get back to you when I see how "autonomous" it is.

Quebec nationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2 for 2! What are the odds? Now will you stop treating me like I don't know what I'm talking about?

Ummm, what does Quebec nationalism have anything to do with what I said about it being a regular old province?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I'll look into that and get back to you when I see how "autonomous" it is.

They have their own government, laws, and capitol. It is in fact its own country... Did you read the part I quoted or just glance at the link title?

Ummm, what does Quebec nationalism have anything to do with what I said about it being a regular old province?

Again, did you bother to read the part I quoted which says Quebec was granted status as a nation within Canada by the Canadian government?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Didn't notice, didn't disregard. I'll take a look. You talking about this?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3407506-post452.html

"Land forcibly taken from Palestinians" isn't really "taken from Palestinians", more like land taken from Jordan. The fallacy of "Palestinian land" rears its head in such attempts at talking points.

Now you're just arguing semantics to avoid admitting that you're wrong...

 

[Shermana]

Now you're just arguing semantics to avoid admitting that you're wrong...

I question your understanding of Semantics.

If you meant to say "Now you're just arguing the specifics of international law and the reality of the situation regarding who claims to own the land", that's another story.

So I'm assuming that's the post you're talking about? I guess I'll have to get into a semantic debate about the meaning of "Detailed report". And for the record, most of the demolished homes were in direct violation of building and zoning codes. Any other country would demolish a house in such a violation. Usually the people who harp on that don't even mention that or even try to blame the building codes. I wonder why. Oh I know, because when people know all the facts, their rabid vitriol looks stupid.

And with that said, where did that post mention the numbers of people who have been "Forcefully expelled from the land".

Are we going to have a semantic debate over the meaning of "expelled from the land" again? I think you're the only person here who will say that occupying the territory alone counts as "forcefully expelling". I mean, have you addressed the fact that there are "MILLIONS OF ARABS" in Judea Samaria?

The lengths some people will go to to avoid backing their claims. Sheesh.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I question your understanding of Semantics.

If you meant to say "Now you're just arguing the specifics of international law and the reality of the situation regarding who claims to own the land", that's another story.

So I'm assuming that's the post you're talking about? I guess I'll have to get into a semantic debate about the meaning of "Detailed report". And for the record, most of the demolished homes were in direct violation of building and zoning codes. Any other country would demolish a house in such a violation. Usually the people who harp on that don't even mention that or even try to blame the building codes. I wonder why. Oh I know, because when people know all the facts, their rabid vitriol looks stupid.

And with that said, where did that post mention the numbers of people who have been "Forcefully expelled from the land".

Are we going to have a semantic debate over the meaning of "expelled from the land" again?

The land taken was not officially part of Jordan; it was part of the British Palestinian Territory which you refuse to acknowledge as Palestine... And don't act like the demolition of these people's homes to build Jewish-only settlements was a zoning issue...

PS: At least admit you were wrong about Quebec and Basque Country... I just want to see you say it.

 

[Shermana]

They have their own government, laws, and capitol. It is in fact its own country... Did you read the part I quoted or just glance at the link title?

US States have their "Own laws and institutions". Are they autonomous too?

Again, did you bother to read the part I quoted which says Quebec was granted status as a nation within Canada by the Canadian government?

I think you don't understand what "nation" means in that context, it's still a province, they still pay taxes to Ottawa, and they still have to obide by Canadian Federal Law. If anything, "nation" is just a fancy meaningless word, but I'm not even sure what part of your quote says what you think it says.

 

[Shermana]

The land taken was not officially part of Jordan; it was part of the British Palestinian Territory which you refuse to acknowledge as Palestine... And don't act like the demolition of these people's homes to build Jewish-only settlements was a zoning issue...

Wow, you don't even know basic history. I love how people who don't even know basic history feel the need to speak as if they are all authoritative.

The "Mandate of Palestine" was not "Palestinian Arab" territory. The word "Palestinian", as I've explained many times, applied to Jews, Whites, Arabs, Blacks, Indians, Chinese, etc. until 1967 when the Arabs adopted the term as an artificial name for their newly discovered "national" status. The land in question of Judea-Samaria, was taken from Jordan, who attacked first, in 1967, after they occupied it in 1948, in what was otherwise a no man's land since the Arabs refused the UN Resolution. You simply don't understand what "Palestine" meant before 1948. The Mandate of "Palestine" did not mean "Arab territory". Kapiesce?

Please learn your basic history before continuing to embarass yourself. I understand you're not taking sides, but if you're going to talk, please know the actual facts, thanks.

And please don't simply disregard the facts about the Zoning issue. As much as you claim to not be "taking sides", you sure are denying and dismissing the basic facts which happen to shed some light on the pro-Palestine "arguments" (lies). Just say you want to villify Israel and aren't willing to listen to factual claims from the other side and be done with it, I much rather have honest hostility than cloaked neutrality.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

US States have their "Own laws and institutions". Are they autonomous too?

US states don't have don't have recognized sovereignty as a country. Basque Country is actually a country like the US is...

I think you don't understand what "nation" means in that context, it's still a province, they still pay taxes to Ottawa, and they still have to obide by Canadian Federal Law. If anything, "nation" is just a fancy meaningless word, but I'm not even sure what part of your quote says what you think it says.

Then you need to reread the quote...

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

And please don't simply disregard the facts about the Zoning issue. As much as you claim to not be "taking sides", you sure are denying and dismissing the basic facts which happen to shed some light on the pro-Palestine "arguments" (lies). Just say you want to villify Israel and aren't willing to listen to factual claims from the other side and be done with it, I much rather have honest hostility than cloaked neutrality.

I'm only disputing your claim that the Israelis are totally blameless and in the right regarding this conflict. You'll say anything to avoid saying that the Jews are capable of being human...

 

[Shermana]

[3410330]
US states don't have don't have recognized sovereignty as a country. Basque Country is actually a country like the US is...

Considering they're a part of Spain, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Quote something else from your article that you feel backs what you're saying.

Then you need to reread the quote...

Okay, feel free to show me what part of the quote you feel backs what you're saying, thanks.