Zionism

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

That is an impressive array of hate literature and propaganda.

Everything against your racist ideology is "hate literature and propaganda", isn't it? Please explain your thesis.

 

[Levite]

Everything against your racist ideology is "hate literature and propaganda". Please explain your thesis.

I've explained my thesis about seventeen times in this thread and others like it. I don't need to re-state everything again. For God's sakes, one of your links is to rense.com! It's one of the most notoriously bigoted, psychotic paranoia and conspiracy websites in existence. This level of crap doesn't deserve a better response. Anyone who takes it seriously would be fairly unlikely to pay any attention to what I have said anyway.

 

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

I've explained my thesis about seventeen times in this thread and others like it. I don't need to re-state everything again. For God's sakes, one of your links is to rense.com! It's one of the most notoriously bigoted, psychotic paranoia and conspiracy websites in existence. This level of crap doesn't deserve a better response. Anyone who takes it seriously would be fairly unlikely to pay any attention to what I have said anyway.

Okay. Well I don't really care much about changing peoples' minds anyway so, nice meeting you.

 

[Shermana]

Everything against your racist ideology is "hate literature and propaganda", isn't it? Please explain your thesis.

Why exactly is a "racist" ideology such a bad thing? Do you consider the racist ideology of the Palestinian Nationalists a bad thing? How about Pan-Arabism? Is your answer "Because Nazis!!!"?

Almost every country in history has its roots in united ethnic struggle. Zionism is simply the prospect of Jews catching in the race of ethnic statecraft.

What's racist is denying the Jews their right to this ethnic unity and political autonomy.

 

[Warren Clark]

For or Against?

I am opposed to Zionism for 2 reasons:

1)The only reason the Jews were given Israel was because they were oppressed by the Nazis. I find it hypocritical that they would turn around and do essentially the same thing to the Palestinians.

2)Zionism claims that Israel belongs to the Jews by right of birth, but the majority of displaced Jews in Israel are of European descent and just happen to follow the Jewish religion. They have no more of a "blood" claim to Israel than I do.

Islam came a millenium after judaism was even a thing.
If anyone has a "birthright" it would be them.

Unfortunately I think any book that says "God says so" is total rubbish.

I can see why jews want their own state.
And you cannot deny there are militant antisemitic Muslims who spread evil propaganda (literally telling children jews want to drink their blood) and would rather have them massacred than live peacefully with them.

My only issue is the God driven part of it along with some questionable acts of war crimes.

I honestly believe that Jerusalem should be turned to rubble and there should be a reorganization of the states. Im sick of the religious babble.
Its outdated and only causes unjustified war and crime.

In my mind, the Muslim extremists like Hamas are just as horrible as the militant Zionists.

 

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

Why exactly is a "racist" ideology such a bad thing? Do you consider the racist ideology of the Palestinian Nationalists a bad thing? How about Pan-Arabism? Is your answer "Because Nazis!!!"?

Almost every country in history has its roots in united ethnic struggle. Zionism is simply the prospect of Jews catching in the race of ethnic statecraft.

What's racist is denying the Jews their right to this ethnic unity and political autonomy.

If you have read some of the information that I've brought from the last page, you would see how Zionism is an unneeded, racist ideology, and the worst part is is that those claiming to be Jews (esp. Ashkenazim) are actually mixed in with Eastern European blood. Here's a 2012 study done on Ashkenazim by Eran Israeli-Elhaik.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1208/1208.1092.pdf

I do not agree wholeheartedly that they are Khazars, as they do have some Semitic blood. However, what you must know is that 48% of Ashkenazi Cohanim and 58% of Sephardic Cohanim have the J1 Cohen Modal Haplotype, which is a considerably low percentage.

A Reassessment of the Jewish DNA Evidence

So what does this mean? It means that the Original Israelites had to have mixed in with the Eastern Europeans, probably during the Khazarian Empire period in the Middle Ages.

So why is it that there's hate in the Palestinian Nationalist movement and other Pan-Islamic/Arab Movements. Well, much of the movements (ie. Hamas and Hezbolla) are offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded by the CIA with the sole purpose of destabilizing the Middle East.

THE CIA & THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD: How the CIA Set the Stage for 9-11 |

You are forgetting the fact that most Palestinian Arabs that are suffering in Israel want peace. Here's an article from Harretz which proves it.

Poll: Most Palestinians want peace with Israel - Israel News | Haaretz

 

[Shermana]

If you have read some of the information that I've brought from the last page, you would see how Zionism is an unneeded, racist ideology, and the worst part is is that those claiming to be Jews (esp. Ashkenazim) are actually mixed in with Eastern European blood. Here's a 2012 study done on Ashkenazim by Eran Israeli-Elhaik.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1208/1208.1092.pdf

Not needed? Ah, but Pan-Arabism is needed? Palestinian nationalism is needed?

I've discussed Elhaik's fringe claims on other posts, regardless if our people are mixed with Eastern European blood to some degree, what exactly does that matter in terms of the Ethnic unity?

I do not agree wholeheartedly that they are Khazars, as they do have some Semitic blood.

Some? Try mostly/overwhelmingly.

However, what you must know is that 48% of Ashkenazi Cohanim and 58% of Sephardic Cohanim have the J1 Cohen Modal Haplotype, which is a considerably low percentage.

As if we know who the Cohens are just by their last name?

A Reassessment of the Jewish DNA Evidence

Why don't you start a new thread on that subject where it's a bit more relevant and you'll get some opinions on people well versed in the genetic aspect.

So what does this mean? It means that the Original Israelites had to mix in with the Eastern Europeans, probably during the Khazarian Empire period in the Middle Ages.

To SOME degree, not nearly the level you and Elhaik would try to prove, and regardless, it kinda doesn't matter since the ethnicity is heavily glued together by the culture itself.

So why is it that there's hate in the Palestinian Nationalist movement and other Pan-Islamic/Arab Movements. Well, much of the movements (ie. Hamas and Hezbolla) are offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood; the Muslim Brotherhood was founded by the CIA with the sole purpose of destabilizing the Middle East.

The CIA existed in 1928 when the Muslim Brotherhood was founded? Fascinating. You know, I believe in a few conspiracy theories myself, but mine don't involve such blatantly disprovable claims.

THE CIA & THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD: How the CIA Set the Stage for 9-11 |

That's the link you're trying to use for your claim

You are forgetting the fact that most Palestinian Arabs that are suffering in Israel want peace. Here's an article from Harretz which proves it.

They want it at the price of heavy concessions on Israel which would put it in a strategically suicidal position.

Poll: Most Palestinians want peace with Israel - Israel News | Haaretz

[/QUOTE]

How about peace with Residency status under a one-state system where they get to vote in individual districts on local issues?

 

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

Not needed? Ah, but Pan-Arabism is needed? Palestinian nationalism is needed?

I've discussed Elhaik's fringe claims on other posts, regardless if our people are mixed with Eastern European blood to some degree, what exactly does that matter in terms of the Ethnic unity?



Some? Try mostly/overwhelmingly.



As if we know who the Cohens are just by their last name?



Why don't you start a new thread on that subject where it's a bit more relevant and you'll get some opinions on people well versed in the genetic aspect.



To SOME degree, not nearly the level you and Elhaik would try to prove, and regardless, it kinda doesn't matter since the ethnicity is heavily glued together by the culture itself.



The CIA existed in 1928 when the Muslim Brotherhood was founded? Fascinating. You know, I believe in a few conspiracy theories myself, but mine don't involve such blatantly disprovable claims.




That's the link you're trying to use for your claim



They want it at the price of heavy concessions on Israel which would put it in a strategically suicidal position.

How about peace with Residency status under a one-state system where they get to vote in individual districts on local issues?[/QUOTE]

1. So you're in favor of a pan-Zionist movement which has: killed many Palestinian Arabs; built settlements by destroying their homes, mosques, etc; sterilized Ethiopian Jewish women; etc. yet you are so concerned with the pan-Arab movements? Let me tell you also that I'm not a nationalist by any means. However Israel has to go.

2. What matters is that there are people (like the so-called Jews) who claim they are God's chosen people, when in reality we are all equal as human beings.

3. Nice bold claim. Maybe you should actually read further into my information to know that it doesn't really hold up as much weight as you want it to be.

4. I'll admit I have not researched entirely into the Muslim Brotherhood, but I do believe that it's obviously controlled opposition because of the fact that it has been supported by the United States government during the recent Egyptian revolutions.

5. Like I said. The State of Israel should not have happened at all.

6. How about the Jews get out and let Palestine be Palestine again?

 

[Shermana]

1. So you're in favor of a pan-Zionist movement which has: killed many Palestinian Arabs; built settlements by destroying their homes, mosques, etc; sterilized Ethiopian Jewish women; etc. yet you are so concerned with the pan-Arab movements? Let me tell you also that I'm not a nationalist by any means. However Israel has to go.

1. Where did I say I was concerned about Pan-Arabist movements? I asked you if you feel they are racist. Can you try actually discussing what I said? As for the "killings", that kinda happens in war, especially wars the Arabs start against the Jews, ESPECIALLY with human shield tactics involved, unless you're an advocate of not being allowed to fire back if the enemy fires from a populated area. As for "Destroying their homes", are you talking about bulldozing illegally zoned homes or homes that harbored convicted, identified terrorists? Why is Israel under any different scrutiny than any other country? Would they do differently?

Now you say "Israel has to go", okay meanwhile I doubt you would say "Turkey has to go" or "China has to go" or "Brazil has to go" or "Iraq has to go" or "The USA has to go". Unless I'm mistaken of course. Otherwise, if you single out Israel for your perceived (and incorrect) observation of events without applying it to other countries, I have two words for you, and I'll refrain from saying them.

2. What matters is that there are people (like the so-called Jews) who claim they are God's chosen people, when in reality we are all equal as human beings.

Very few Jews rely on the religious argument, it seems most people who bring up the religious issue are anti-Zionists. Most Jews use history and geography instead. However, I'd like to see your proof that "We are all equal as human beings".

Now do you have any words for Muslims who believe they are God's chosen religion?

3. Nice bold claim. Maybe you should actually read further into my information to know that it doesn't really hold up as much weight as you want it to be.

Which bold claim and what information do you feel pokes holes in what I say exactly?

4. I'll admit I have not researched entirely into the Muslim Brotherhood, but I do believe that it's obviously controlled opposition because of the fact that it has been supported by the United States government during the recent Egyptian revolutions.

You admit that you don't know what you're talking about and you bring up a 9/11 conspiracy concept as the base of your point, thank you.

5. Like I said. The State of Israel should not have happened at all.

But the concept of an all-Arab Palestine should have happened? Should the USA have not happened at all? Should Turkey not have happened at all? Who gets to judge and decide? Maybe if the Arabs didn't try to kill all the Jews in 1948, they would have gotten a state?

6. How about the Jews get out and let Palestine be Palestine again?

How about you get out of the USA and offer your home to an Indian or otherwise kindly refrain from revealing your blatant unwillingness to understand the reality and history?

How about you learn that "Palestine" never meant "Arab Palestine"?

How about you learn some basic history, particularly not from a pro-Palestine site that distorts the facts and omits key information before you embarrass yourself some more?

 

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

1. Where did I say I was concerned about Pan-Arabist movements? I asked you if you feel they are racist. Can you try actually discussing what I said? As for the "killings", that kinda happens in war, especially wars the Arabs start against the Jews, ESPECIALLY with human shield tactics involved, unless you're an advocate of not being allowed to fire back if the enemy fires from a populated area. As for "Destroying their homes", are you talking about bulldozing illegally zoned homes or homes that harbored convicted, identified terrorists? Why is Israel under any different scrutiny than any other country? Would they do differently?

Do you have any proof about the claim that Israel has rightfully "illegally zoned homes or homes that harbored convicted, identified terrorists"? You should watch this video to see who the real terrorists are, and to be honest they are not the ones you are talking about.

[youtube]EC6C-cAc240[/youtube]
Caterpillar Bulldozer - Israel/Palestine - YouTube

Now you say "Israel has to go", okay meanwhile I doubt you would say "Turkey has to go" or "China has to go" or "Brazil has to go" or "Iraq has to go" or "The USA has to go". Unless I'm mistaken of course. Otherwise, if you single out Israel for your perceived (and incorrect) observation of events without applying it to other countries, I have two words for you, and I'll refrain from saying them.

Nothing but pure emotion you're spewing out on this one.

Which bold claim and what information do you feel pokes holes in what I say exactly?

The one where you said that the Ashkenazim have a good amount of Semitic blood, which is untrue and in which you have not proved your claim.

But the concept of an all-Arab Palestine should have happened? Should the USA have not happened at all? Should Turkey not have happened at all? Who gets to judge and decide? Maybe if the Arabs didn't try to kill all the Jews in 1948, they would have gotten a state?

Again. More emotion. No need to reply to that one.

How about you get out of the USA and offer your home to an Indian or otherwise kindly refrain from revealing your blatant unwillingness to understand the reality and history?

How about you learn that "Palestine" never meant "Arab Palestine"?

How about you learn some basic history, particularly not from a pro-Palestine site that distorts the facts and omits key information before you embarrass yourself some more?

I have Cherokee blood, so I'm good. And yes, I do know my history. To be honest, I'm not the one spewing gross emotion, so how am I embarrassing myself? Furthermore, the history told at public schools teaches almost exactly the same thing you're spewing out, which is evident that your "basic history" (when it comes to this issue we're having here) is really asinine.

But I do say Bravo on spewing as much gross emotion as you have on that post. All emotion and no source(s). Bravo! Woo-Hoo! :clap:clap:clap:thud:

 

[Shermana]

Okay, so you're going to just write off any counter-argument or counterpoint as "Gross emotion" and will just ignore anything that goes against your view without actually addressing, and simply call it "asinine" or whatnot, BRAVO for the display of intellectual honesty. You have totally proven yourself to be interested in a fair examination of the events and not just spewing vitriolic vomit with ideas like "Israel has to go". Maybe you should head down to Gaza and help make it happen, I encourage you to do so!

The one where you said that the Ashkenazim have a good amount of Semitic blood,

Genetic studies on Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now I'm assuming you'll write those off too, but at least you'll have the luxury of dismissing an actual link. I'm assuming you'll write it off as Wikipedia without noting the sources either.

I do feel sorry for people like yourself whose lives are absolutely dominated by the thought of Jews.

 

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

Okay, so you're going to just write off any counter-argument or counterpoint as "Gross emotion" and will just ignore anything that goes against your view without actually addressing, and simply call it "asinine" or whatnot, BRAVO for the display of intellectual honesty. You have totally proven yourself to be interested in a fair examination of the events and not just spewing vitriolic vomit with ideas like "Israel has to go". Maybe you should head down to Gaza and help make it happen, I encourage you to do so!


Hell, just see for yourself.

Genetic studies on Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now I'm assuming you'll write those off too, but at least you'll have the luxury of dismissing an actual link. I'm assuming you'll write it off as Wikipedia without noting the sources either.

I do feel sorry for people like yourself whose lives are absolutely dominated by the thought of Jews.

Wikipedia? Are you serious? Did you know that the website incriminates itself by saying:

Wikipedia is not considered a credible source. Wikipedia is increasingly used by people in the academic community, from freshman students to professors, as an easily accessible tertiary source for information about anything and everything. However, citation of Wikipedia in research papers may be considered unacceptable, because Wikipedia is not considered a credible or authoritative source.

Wikipedia:Academic use - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At least you were right about me righting that website off, because obviously the information you're using is not even real research.

And yes, I had to ignore some of your posts because most of it was in fact indeed just emotion. Rather than disprove my stuff with good information, you decide to dismiss it and spew even more emotions.

And the best part is that the only source you've used so far is Wikipedia - a website in which it admits that it's not really a good, credible, reliable source. But then again, it's all about baby steps, right?

This is a debate. It's about utilizing good, in-depth research and to actually use it without emotion. Unfortunately, I don't see it in anyone. I've made the same mistakes before; using emotion when I get stumped. But that's what life is all about is learning lessons.

 

[Shermana]

I knew it!

I called it.

I left the door wide open with a sign and you stepped right into it.

You have no concept of how to use the sources that Wikipedia cites.

The fail in this one is extreme.

 

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

I knew it!

I called it.

I left the door wide open with a sign and you stepped right into it.

You have no concept of how to use the sources that Wikipedia cites.

Whatever. I do not know what you're talking about, and really I just don't care. If you wanna use Wikipedia, that's fine by me. I'm just saying it's not a good research website.

So, it seems as though you have not addressed any of my information regarding Zionism. Instead you went off topic and started babbling about something that I don't know what you're talking of. But hey, if that's what's called a debate, then man should I just walk out of this forum or what?

Well anyways, I hope you're well. We may not agree on this issue but I still consider you a friend. Let's just bury this hatchet and be done with, okay? :soccer:

 

[Shermana]

It's a great research website because it links to the same websites you'd click on if you were doing a serious research paper in more cases than not.

What information regarding Zionism do you feel I'm not addressing? I must have missed your post where you actually put something forth that's "information". Feel free to link or quote.

but I still consider you a friend.

Why? You don't even know me and we're already off to a bad start.

 

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

It's a great research website because it links to the same websites you'd click on if you were doing a serious research paper in more cases than not.

What information regarding Zionism do you feel I'm not addressing? I must have missed your post where you actually put something forth that's "information". Feel free to link or quote.

Did you not read from the quote made by Wikipedia itself? It said itself that it's not a credible source; so why are you using it for research? That ain't research at all.

I don't really need to stress anything about the errors of Zionism. You can just visit or revisit the links that I've already given you.

Why? You don't even know me and we're already off to a bad start.

So?

 

[theosis]

SheikhHorusFromTheSky, you argue that an ethnic group does not deserve to live in a certain location ("should get out of Palestine") because it is not "genetically pure" enough while at the same time decrying the "racist ideology" of your interlocutors?

You're either suffering from massive cognitive dissonance or are a proud hypocrite (among many other less than savory things).

 

[Shermana]

Did you not read from the quote made by Wikipedia itself? It said itself that it's not a credible source; so why are you using it for research? That ain't research at all.

It's talking about when it's not sourced. The sources themselves that it quotes are fine. The same sources that the article links, you'd be able to use in a university paper.

Wikipedia articles are very much questionable when they are not sourced, and are often written by those with a clear bias which ignores key counter-views, or omits relevant information and pushes a particular party line. But when it's properly sourced, even if it's such, it at least offers a means of evaluating the foundation of those claims.

 

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

SheikhHorusFromTheSky, you argue that an ethnic group does not deserve to live in a certain location ("should get out of Palestine") because it is not "genetically pure" enough while at the same time decrying the "racist ideology" of your interlocutors?

You're either suffering from massive cognitive dissonance or are a proud hypocrite (among many other less than savory things).

Show me a quote from me saying that.

 

[Shermana]

Show me a quote from me saying that.

Were you implying that the Jews should stay and just rename the state to "Palestine" (which originally was a mandate that applied to Whites, Turks, Indians, Arabs, and Jews alike)?