Zionism

[gilligan8914]

"virtually equal rights"

What exactly are "virtually equal rights?

 

[Shermana]

"virtually equal rights"

What exactly are "virtually equal rights?

It means there's a few exceptions like a stupid rule that you can't marry a Jew if you're a non-Jew.

For that, there's Cypress.

And with that said, if you have major complaints about Israel for these kinds of rules for the Arab citizens, you really have a desparate case.

 

[Juhurka]

Maybe middle eastern people should do the same with other lands and offered them here and there.

Maybe you should get a clue, Arabs are not the only people from the middle east.

 

[metis]

Precisely. For some strange, unidenfitable reason (cough) they ONLY care about the Jewish state, and no where else. They couldn't give two figs about Iraq, Turkey, Burma (Myanmar), Chiapas in Mexico, the Native Americans (Whose land they are more too happy to occupy and give a token "I care them about too" fib) and their justification is quite often "International Law changed after 1945". Which is hysterical every time they say it. They think the International Law Fairy waved her magical International Law Wand and changed the playing field ever since. But then when I bring up that there are still secession and territorial issues like with Xingjiang in China and the Kurds and the Tamils, they change the subject or say something like "I care for all peoples worldwide" when often in reality it's the first time they've heard of such situations, or they have heard and simply couldn't care less about them.

And then they complain that "Anyone who is anti-zionist is called anti-semitic". Well guess what people, when you ONLY care about the Jewish state, or you throw 99% of your "Human rights activism" towards the Palestinians and refuse to learn the objective history and look for every possible excuse to hate on the Jewish state, it may just be true. May just be.

All good points above.

 

[1robin]

Maybe middle eastern people should do the same with other lands and offered them here and there.

I did not understand this. The Jews had every legal right to the land in every category by which those issues are settled.

 

[1robin]

"virtually equal rights"

What exactly are "virtually equal rights?

Rights that are almost equal. The right to free speech and the right to free speech except between 1pm and 2pm on Sunday are virtually equal rights.

 

[gilligan8914]

Why not have "equal" rights.

 

[Shermana]

Why not have "equal" rights.

Progress takes a series of small steps. At this point, giving the current situation, there are tensions on both sides which require certain stopgap measures to maintain peace and order. It is certainly not perfect but for the time being, Israeli Arabs have just about everything they could want in terms of freedom of mobility, business, legal representation, land leasing, economic opportunity, union membership, and use of civil services that Israeli Jews also have, the issues of what they don't share are rather small and almost entirely socially based. Now one may argue that they are discriminated against for Jobs, but that's a social issue.

However, they are exempt from military service, but this deprives them of veteran's benefits. This however makes them viable and demanded candidates for a series of temporary jobs when Jews serve in the army like their month-long Reserve duty. Certain things like the prohibition on Marriage are in my opinion, utterly stupid. I may not be in favor of such marriages personally (I highly doubt most of them are well thought out or purely out of love on both sides), but I see no reason to actively prevent them, especially when they are so equally circumventable.

In the meantime, the Palestinian non-citizen Arabs are mostly not willing to assimilate into Israeli society, though many are very good candidates for civilians and are well-behaved, upstanding residents who are solid workers and would be model citizens. The problem is that there's not enough like that, so the current situation is a matter of maintaining national stability while balancing it with economic opprotunity for all in a way that doesn't undermine the Jewish state.

So to harp on the minor issues of inequality is just demonstrating a lack of concern for things of greater gravity or a zeroed in nitpicking.

 

[gilligan8914]

One of the problems with immigration and naturalization is that many people bring their own culture and society to the country and refuse to "assimilate" as you say. America was once a melting pot. Now nobody wants to melt.

 

[Pastek]

I did not understand this. The Jews had every legal right to the land in every category by which those issues are settled.

Did they ask the Palestinians before they decide anything ?

 

[metis]

Did they ask the Palestinians before they decide anything ?

Let me ask you something. Palestinians living in Israel can leave any time they want and go live in another country, so where are those lines of people leaving? If life is so better in the neighboring countries, why are they still staying in Israel? Doesn't that really tell us something?

BTW, when the U.N. by a vote of 2/3 agreed to partition Palestine, any Palestinian that would be displaced was to be offered money in compensation whereas they can move and invest themselves in a different country. Wanna take a guess at which country was putting up the money offered? However, when the neighboring countries attacked Israel, the offer was pulled.

Anyhow, these points are really moot since we are where we are today, so we must deal with the reality of today. To argue the past is strictly academic, which is fine as far as it goes.

 

[1robin]

Why not have "equal" rights.

I just explained the term. I have no idea what was meant by it. Let me ask you a question unless God exists what is the basis for equality or rights?

 

[1robin]

Did they ask the Palestinians before they decide anything ?

Yes, as a mater of fact they did. The offered Israel 9Ithink less than half of land at issue here and offered the Palestinians the rest. The Jewish people were happy to live on part of the land they had occupied for thousands of years continuously but "who would have guessed it " the Muslims decided they wanted all or nothing of what they never had any right to in the first place. Palestinian Christians suffered the same fate as did the Muslim Palestinians but only the Islamic Palestinians seemed to regard mutilation, sniping, and kidnapping just recompense for what they refused to accept in the first place and had no right to in the second.

 

[Pastek]

Let me ask you something. Palestinians living in Israel can leave any time they want and go live in another country, so where are those lines of people leaving? If life is so better in the neighboring countries, why are they still staying in Israel? Doesn't that really tell us something?

And why they would go ? It's their country, their land.

BTW, when the U.N. by a vote of 2/3 agreed to partition Palestine, any Palestinian that would be displaced was to be offered money in compensation whereas they can move and invest themselves in a different country.

Of course, they were too glad to get rid of them.

Anyhow, these points are really moot since we are where we are today, so we must deal with the reality of today. To argue the past is strictly academic, which is fine as far as it goes.

I talk about the past if i want. If we are in this situation today it's because of the past.
You are free to give your opinion and i'm free to give mine.

The Jewish people were happy to live on part of the land they had occupied for thousands of years continuously

Of course they were happy, that's what they asked for.

but "who would have guessed it " the Muslims decided they wanted all or nothing of what they never had any right to in the first place.

I think it's maybe because it was their land.

It's incredible how you think it's normal to do what you want with lands who are not yours. That's something that i really can't understand.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I have always viewed Zionism as a necessary evil although it is not remotely evil when in a ratio but it still exist to combat many issues facing Jews.

Zionism is the shield for Jewish survival and a strong and often unaware binding that unites Jews. Zionism although radical like many other forms of nationalism was formed to preserve Jewish identity.

I would not call this a bad thing at all. Implementation is what many should be worried about.

 

[Shermana]

It's their country, their land.

with lands who are not yours

And here's the big contention.

What makes it "their country" and "Their land". What makes it "not yours"? Is America the White man's land? Is it no longer the Natives? If so, then you prove the Might makes Right concept. If not, then you should be pressing fully hard with your complaints against White rulership of the USA as you do for the Palestinians if you want to look remotely objective. This whole concept of ownership of land based on who lives there is quite problematic. Why is it not the Jews' land who lived there from long before the Arabs? Not all of them left after the Romans butchered and expelled them. At what point do the conquerors of a land get to call it "theirs"? Why does it work for the Arabs after 630 A.D. but not the Jews after 1967? How many years must elapse before a military conqueror and settler gets to call it "Their land" exactly? What's the magic number?

Might is what determines whose land it is, and anyone who says differently is not a realist.

 

[1robin]

And why they would go ? It's their country, their land.

In what way? Israel had been forcibly removed by belligerents and the Palestinians just occupied some areas. Israel has every right in every single category to possession of that land.

Of course, they were too glad to get rid of them.

And Palestinians were only too glad to stay. Israel out produces the rest of Arabian is almost every category including security, freedom, and rights of every kind. Of course they stayed instead of heading back to Islamic oppression.

Of course they were happy, that's what they asked for.

However it is less than they had rights to and more than Palestinians had rights to. Every single way that rights are given to land is on Israel's side. You are going to have at least to invent a reason Palestine deserved the land before an argument even exists.

I think it's maybe because it was their land.

Again by what standard?

It's incredible how you think it's normal to do what you want with lands who are not yours. That's something that i really can't understand.

Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and every other nation in the area has been trying to take what they do not have a right to from Israel and even denying their rights to exist at all. No culture exists on the land their ancestors originated from. In every single way rights are granted Israel has them. They even returned land they were attacked from over and over and have been attacked from the land they returned every single time. What fool would give even more of what the Jews hold every right to? Islamic nations can't even govern their own nations well. Why should the 1/6 of 1% of the land they have no claim to that they have not already ruined be taken away from those that do have every right to it and do more with it than all the other nations combined?

 

[Pastek]

What makes it "their country" and "Their land".

They lived there. They had houses, farms ...

Why is it not the Jews' land who lived there from long before the Arabs? Not all of them left after the Romans butchered and expelled them.

Then they are/were palestinians.
And after the Romans expelled them the caliph Omar authorized them to come back in Palestine, so did Saladin. Some came after the arabs, and it wasn't refused to them.
Why they don't want to be part of the same people who shared their land ? Why do they have to split from the muslims and the christians ?

At what point do the conquerors of a land get to call it "theirs"? Why does it work for the Arabs after 630 A.D. but not the Jews after 1967?

There's many centuries between those dates.

 

[1robin]

There's many centuries between those dates.

How many years is the criteria for I took it so it's mine claims? I claim it is one second and I claim your house.

 

[Pastek]

Israel has every right in every single category to possession of that land.

Which right ?

And Palestinians were only too glad to stay. Israel out produces the rest of Arabian is almost every category including security, freedom, and rights of every kind. Of course they stayed instead of heading back to Islamic oppression.

Oh my God... I really can't understand this point of view.

Again by what standard?

You really don't know that people were living there ? Or you don't care at all ?

Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and every other nation in the area has been trying to take what they do not have a right to from Israel and even denying their rights to exist at all.

Of course. How can you think that they won't be in the side of their brothers when people are stealing their land ?

Islamic nations can't even govern their own nations well.

Thanks to people who put their nose in our lands and support and sometimes place some dictators. They are happy when they give them petrol, money, etc
But when they don't need them or don't act like they want, they throw them away.