Zionism

[1robin]

Which right ?

I asked first but I do not think I am going to get what I asked for, so: Un Mandate, British Mandate, Continuous occupation, Longest occupation, military conquest, International recognition, common sense, least harm, etc... Your turn.

Oh my God... I really can't understand this point of view.

You just asked my by what standard and then balked when I asked it. I can back up everything I claimed with massive stats. However I have no remedy if you can't understand what I claimed. It speaks for its self. Israel has the only free press, the only universal voting rights, etc.... Why would not stay there instead of Syria?

You really don't know that people were living there ? Or you don't care at all ?

Are you suggesting I do not know people lived in Israel? If I move in your house will you give me half? If you offer me half and I demand the whole thing will you get out? Jews lived there long before and never abandoned the nation anyway.

Of course. How can you think that they won't be in the side of their brothers when people are stealing their land ?

I just do not get this. Are you dividing up Israel by the acre and the year? Israel was there long before Palestinian Muslims were. They never surrendered the nation and always lived there. At some point many were forcibly taken from their homes and Palestinians took their land. Then the British took it all. The British offered Israel back half of their own land and offered Palestine half of what they simply moved onto and without right. The ones who were squatting told the ones who actually owned the land they could not give it to the ones who never lost the rights to the land they could not have it. They were immediately whipped and have only the complaint that they could not do all together what Israel did alone. For the last time what claim of any kind do Palestinians have to land they simply wandered onto that others owned? There exists no argument at all until this is provided.

Thanks to people who put their nose in our lands and support and sometimes place some dictators. They are happy when they give them petrol, money, etc
But when they don't need them or don't act like they want, they throw them away.

I have no idea what this even means. Islam's problem are all Islam's.

 

[metis]

Of course, they were too glad to get rid of them.

Then why is 20% of the Israeli population Arabic citizens?

I talk about the past if i want. If we are in this situation today it's because of the past.
You are free to give your opinion and i'm free to give mine.

I didn't say you couldn't talk about the past but merely was saying that such discussion, as interesting as it might be, does nothing to deal with the present or the future. Nor did I say you couldn't give your opinion, so why did you create these staw-men?

 

[metis]

And why they would go ? It's their country, their land.

No, it wasn't "their country" exclusively, as Jews had always remained in the area. Also, with our building in that area, many "Palestinians" actually moved there seeking jobs long before Israeli independence.

So, you clearly demonstrate for all of us what the real problem is, namely your declaration that it was "their land"("Palestinian") when the reality is that it was shared land run by a larger entity, whether that be the Ottomans or the British.

 

[gilligan8914]

I just explained the term. I have no idea what was meant by it. Let me ask you a question unless God exists what is the basis for equality or rights?

Its called being human and humane. If god exists or nor not has nothing to to with being human and humane. Were christians humane when they wiped out the Cathars, when they started the crusades, or when they instigated the inquisition. Were muslims humane when they converted people to islam under threat of death (which christians also did) or when "the sword of islam" eliminated 5% of the worlds population? Were jews humane when they followed the "word of god" and wiped out cities and tribes in the old testament. If there is one thing that is common to all abrahamic religions, it is their inhumanity to their fellow humans. Their god is not humane only conspicuously absent from this world.

 

[Shermana]

They lived there. They had houses, farms ...

That doesn't address what I said.

Then they are/were palestinians.
And after the Romans expelled them the caliph Omar authorized them to come back in Palestine, so did Saladin. Some came after the arabs, and it wasn't refused to them.

And the Crusaders wiped them out again, and they were denied to come back during the reign of the Mamluks, but still, why isn't it now the Jews' land?

Why they don't want to be part of the same people who shared their land ? Why do they have to split from the muslims and the christians ?

Do you ask the Palestinians this same question?

There's many centuries between those dates.

Ummm, did you not understand my question or are you saying that a few centuries is all that's needed for this "magic number" to be achieved?

 

[1robin]

Its called being human and humane. If god exists or nor not has nothing to to with being human and humane.

Who's opinion gets counted for what is humane? Hitler's, Stalin's, Pol Pot's. Humane is a matter of opinion not moral truth. In fact it is speciesm and not moral at all. We demand human flourishing even if it comes at the expense of everything else not flourishing. Nice sense of fair play. We are right because we are us, I guess.

Were christians humane when they wiped out the Cathars, when they started the crusades, or when they instigated the inquisition.

Almost never and that has nothing to do with anything I said.

Were muslims humane when they converted people to islam under threat of death (which christians also did) or when "the sword of islam" eliminated 5% of the worlds population? Were jews humane when they followed the "word of god" and wiped out cities and tribes in the old testament. If there is one thing that is common to all abrahamic religions, it is their inhumanity to their fellow humans. Their god is not humane only conspicuously absent from this world.

Nope. However added together and squared and it still does not equal even a small fraction of what atheism has done just in Stalin's day or in abortion but that is not the issue either. I am discussing foundations not apprehension or obedience. Again prove anything is ever actually wrong without God? Not why you guess? Not who's opinion sounds best to who? Actual foundations. You need God to even attempt to condemn Christians. Prove racism is not perfectly justified by evolution? Or eugenics, or killing every competing human on Earth not conducive to my tribe's survival for that matter? Nature is amoral and can't ever suggest what should be.

 

[gilligan8914]

Humans and humane behavior have been in existance long before the concept of god ever was. The thousands of gods that have been claimed to exist over the last few thousand years has done nothing but give the leaders of their believers the excuse to do inhumane deeds for the "glory of god". Jews were once canaanite, polytheistic nomads who worshipped multiple gods. Believing in god does not make one holy,civilized, or humane. It simply makes those who claim to be "holy men" more powerful and gives them a reason to commit atrocities, because "god told them to do it". If jews claim that god intended for them to dwell in Israel they are sorely mistaken. Someone who wrote a book may have written that. But as we all know, god is illiterate. God has never written even the first letter.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Its called being human and humane. If god exists or nor not has nothing to to with being human and humane.

As the terms "human" and "humane" are being used as a moral measuring stick, then yes - G-d has Everything to do with being humane.
There is NO morality without G-d.
Everything that you or most people today, in the year 2013, consider "moral," comes from G-d and His Torah.

Were christians humane when they wiped out the Cathars, when they started the crusades, or when they instigated the inquisition.

Absolutely NOT. The Crusaders were largely immoral - as was testified to by St. Bernard at the time.

Were muslims humane when they converted people to islam under threat of death

This is a fiction. Islam did NOT practice "convert or die" when they conquered the Middle East, North Africa and Asia. This is a modern barbarism which has corrupted Islam altogether.

(which christians also did)

Only after Christianity was co-opted by Rome.
When the State takes over and dictates your morals, then bad things happen.

or when "the sword of islam" eliminated 5% of the worlds population?

Interesting. Never heard of this one. Do you have data to share?

Were jews humane when they followed the "word of god" and wiped out cities and tribes in the old testament.

Absolutely. Yes. When G-d tells you to do something, it is by definition, humane.

If there is one thing that is common to all abrahamic religions, it is their inhumanity to their fellow humans. Their god is not humane only conspicuously absent from this world.

Utter nonsense.
Because your opinion of what is "humane" apparently differs from G-d, you consider those that disagree with your purely subjective opinion "inhumane."
This is true of most despots and tyrants of the world.
Anyone who disagrees with THEIR opinion is, by definition, "inhumane."

 

[Shermana]

"Humane" = Whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Even if it involves condoning the actions of a murderous, rapacious, cannibalistic culture.

 

[CMike]

When Israel started as a nation they bought the arab land from the arabs.

Basically they got all wasteland and through hard work they turned it around.

The arabs decided that they didn't accept the partition, and invaded Israel when it declared it's independence.

They wanted to kill all the jews. It didn't work out that way.

The arabs lost land. Too bad. They shouldn't have invaded in the first place.

The arabs in judea and samaria are either Jordinanian or Egpytian. They have their homelands in those countries.

The arab leaders have wanted to keep these arabs in poor conditions as a bargaining chip.

If they cared one iota about their "brothers" they would welcome them back home with open arms.

Israel has continuously tried to get peace with the arabs. The arab leaders have sworn to destroy Israel.

Israel is a tiny country. It is about the size of NJ, with the arab countries about the size of the US.

Now why in their right mind should they give away parts of their little country, including half their capital, to people who have stated publically that they wish to destroy all of Israel?

Why would they committ suicide that way?

Would any nation aid people out to destroy them?

This isn't about "arab rights", "occupation" or any of the other stuff.

It's about the arab leaders doing whatever the can for the purpose of destroying all of Israel because they exist.

 

[Shermana]

The arabs in judea and samaria are either Jordinanian or Egpytian. They have their homelands in those countries.

You mean Syrian, few of them I believe actually come from Transjordan.

 

[metis]

The French referred to the "Palestinians" as "sud-Syrians" ("south Syrians").

 

[BlandOatmeal]

For or Against?

I am opposed to Zionism for 2 reasons:

1)The only reason the Jews were given Israel was because they were oppressed by the Nazis. I find it hypocritical that they would turn around and do essentially the same thing to the Palestinians.

2)Zionism claims that Israel belongs to the Jews by right of birth, but the majority of displaced Jews in Israel are of European descent and just happen to follow the Jewish religion. They have no more of a "blood" claim to Israel than I do.

Because both reasons you give are utter nonesense, I think you ought to reconsider why you're even taking issue with this thing you know nothing about.

Zionism is the legitimate right of the Jewish people to live in their God-given homeland. If you don't agree with this right, I suggest you take up the matter with the One who gave it to them. Otherwise, I fail to understand why you should even be interested in the matter.

 

[CMike]

"Originally Posted by I.S.L.A.M617
For or Against?

I am opposed to Zionism for 2 reasons:

1)The only reason the Jews were given Israel was because they were oppressed by the Nazis. I find it hypocritical that they would turn around and do essentially the same thing to the Palestinians.

2)Zionism claims that Israel belongs to the Jews by right of birth, but the majority of displaced Jews in Israel are of European descent and just happen to follow the Jewish religion. They have no more of a "blood" claim to Israel than I do."

1) Before Israel became Israel it was a british colony, and before that part of the Ottoman Empire. At the very least jews have as much right to Israel as did the arabs.

Also they bought land from the arabs which was wasteland at the time.

During the war jews pleaded with the arab villages to stay neutral and not attack jews. Once they used their areas to launch attacks, they no longer had a claim to staying there. They were hostile enemy.

2) Israel was given to Israel by the UN. The arabs didn't accept the UN's vote and launched an attack to destroy Israel. Since the arabs didn't recognize the partition to begin with then they have no right to claim their part after they lost.

Too late.

 

[Shermana]

The French referred to the "Palestinians" as "sud-Syrians" ("south Syrians").

The Arabs themselves referred to them as Southern Syrians. Even until the 1960s.

 

[gilligan8914]

"Humane" = Whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Even if it involves condoning the actions of a murderous, rapacious, cannibalistic culture.

Yep. Thats about it.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Please watch this video (the whole video) and then give your opinion about Zionism.....
[youtube]Yt3d3Fmouh4[/youtube]
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt3d3Fmouh4&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DYt3d3Fmouh4

 

[Moishe3rd]

Please watch this video (the whole video) and then give your opinion about Zionism.....

Why?
Apparently you find something objectionable regarding Israel in this video.
If you would like to elucidate what that is in a very specific way, a person might then be able to respond.
Otherwise - why would anyone bother wasting an hour and a half watching and listening to some video screed?

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Why?
Apparently you find something objectionable regarding Israel in this video.
If you would like to elucidate what that is in a very specific way, a person might then be able to respond.
Otherwise - why would anyone bother wasting an hour and a half watching and listening to some video screed?

First off, I do apologize for the title of the video which implies hostility or objections towards Israel. For the record, I have no objection towards Israel or the Jewish. I have objections towards zionism. There is a difference.
Secondly, my original post and opinion is posted on page 4 post #31.
Third, I posted this video for those who care and are curious enough to invest their time into educating themselves and learning truths from other perspectives; as opposed to common propaganda and indoctrination constantly imposed on people by mass mainstream media.

 

[Moishe3rd]

First off, I do apologize for the title of the video which implies hostility or objections towards Israel. For the record, I have no objection towards Israel or the Jewish. I have objections towards zionism. There is a difference.
Secondly, my original post and opinion is posted on page 4 post #31.
Third, I posted this video for those who care and are curious enough to invest their time into educating themselves and learning truths from other perspectives; as opposed to common propaganda and indoctrination constantly imposed on people by mass mainstream media.

I am not sure if you are incredibly naive or incredibly vicious.
However, we are instructed by G-d to give everyone the benefit of the doubt so, I will extend that courtesy towards you for now.

The video you posted is vicious propaganda and incredibly hateful indoctrination against Jews and Israel. It has nothing to do with Zionism per se.
You claim to agree with the viewpoint:
"The only reason the Jews were given Israel was because they were oppressed by the Nazis. I find it hypocritical that they would turn around and do essentially the same thing to the Palestinians."
This is an historically invalid and quite dishonest point of view.
For you to agree to it indicates that you have zero interest in history or facts.
I would suggest you read some history on the origins of the State of Israel and your comparison of slaughtering millions of Jews with the treatment of the Arabs called Palestinians.

"Zionism claims that Israel belongs to the Jews by right of birth, but the majority of displaced Jews in Israel are of European descent and just happen to follow the Jewish religion. They have no more of a "blood" claim to Israel than I do."
This is *NOT* even a decent dictionary or propaganda definition of Zionism. (Embarrassing on my part. I apologize for leaving out the word NOT)
Again, this would indicate that you don't really understand the things to which you object.
I would suggest you educate yourself outside of those who simply hate Jews and/or Israel.
There is no profit in your observations nor in your video.