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Zionism

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Sorry it doesn't work that way. You are the one taking predictability out of context of what the word actually means and applying some mystical bent to it, as if 'predicting' something you'd like to point out is magical, but something easlily predicted that I point to is mundane.
I have a degree in math and spent many semester hours doing stats. I know how predictability works and that is not the issue. The issue is I made comments in a context, that were taken out of context. Fine, I am used to that tactic, I explained the context and corrected for clarity.

Claims about future none repetitious and detailed events have no known natural source in the context I was making the claims in. No atom in the universe knows what your grand children's jobs will be.

Yes predicting repetitive, easily predictable, cyclical events are mundane. I would have thought that obvious, in fact I did. I should have known nothing is granted no matter how obvious if inconvenient.

I know absolutly nothing about you, but I predict you have no higher education, you are married and at home all day without employment, and you have 3 children. If I'm right does that make me a mystic? If I make the same prediction about everyone that frequents this site, I guarantee you I will be correct at least a few times. That in it self is a prediction, and I'm about 98% it is correct.
That makes no sense. Making logical deductions from evidence has nothing to do with predicting events and details that are unknowable by deduction hundreds of years from now.

Let me officially distinguish between what your doing a prophecy. Prophecy is independent of probability, known or reliable predictions derived from evidence, or cyclic recurrence. Predictions are the exact opposite.

The fact that you'd like to use a word in a special way to make you point but discount it when you are not able to discuss the word in a meaningful way indicates you argue from your conclusion down, rather than evidence up.
There is no evidence on your side. There was no evidence of predictability that a messiah would be born of a virgin, die on a cross, and be offered gall many years before he existed. You are hiding in semantics. This is the tactic of a man who wants to get a guilty client declared innocence by procedure instead of truth. I am exhausted with this tactic. You know exactly the difference between predictions about cyclical things and probability but are using technicality as a shield. This like my lawyer example is evidence you care about winning word fight not resolving truth.



You do realize that Tyre withstood Nebuchadrezzar's siege for 13 years, ending in a compromise in which the royal family was taken into exile but the city survived intact. In fact Tyre stands and has been continually inhabited to this day . Ezekiel predicted that the city of Tyre would be utterly destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and "made a bare rock" that will "never be rebuilt"
I know far more about Tyre than most. I defend it constantly. Do you really want to get into it? Do not agree if you are going to bail or punt. This will get very sophisticated and require time, and it will demonstrate without doubt that no natural explanation is a fit for the prophecy. As I said the conservative odds were established at greater than 70,000 to 1 of a lucky or even a reasoned guess. I suggest we let Tyre (one of the most criticized prophecies in the bible) settle this. I claim there is no justification for suggesting a natural explanation is even as remotely as logical as a supernatural one. Do you accept?




First you haven't demonstrated any meaninful degree of accurate prophecy in the bible. Second, you presume to know the vastness of all the natural has to offer? Third, wars have been predicted with accuracy for millenia. WWII was predicted before the last shot was fired in WWI. The civil war was predicted long before it took place. The american revolution was predicted. The spanish-american war was predicted. And so on and so on.
I have not attempted to . It is an obvious fact hat I will demonstrate if you accept my challenge but as no single prophecy has been chosen I can't very well prove 2000 of them. The details of WW2 were not predicted as the details of Tyre were. I really wish you would stop equating things that are not remotely equal.

The claim about my knowledge of the totality of nature is fair so let me clarify. There is no known natural explanation for biblical prophecy. Good enough?

The natural is virtualy never used as an explanation for prophecy? LOL! No, the natural is allmost 100% universally used as an explanation for every accurate prediciton made. From the rising of the sun, to the travel time from New York to London. The next president. The time for a baseball to dropped from a building to reach the ground.
No it is not. I did not say prediction, I said prophecy.


Biblical prophecy is this: To predict with assurance or on the basis of mystic knowledge. Predictions are not that. Predictions are deductions made from circumstances, current or past evidence, and probability based on cyclic data.

The natural provides a billion fold increase in predictability over the bible or any supernatural means.
That was 100% contrived out of this air and is not even a coherent statement.

I do not want to get bogged down in semantic triviality. The challenge what best explains the prophecy of Tyre as a source. Accept? To give you some hope, of all biblical prophecies it is among the few that even have a partial natural potential at all. Most can't be naturally derived form anything known about nature.
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
I have a degree in math and spent many semester hours doing stats. I know how predictability works and that is not the issue. The issue is I made comments in a context, that were taken out of context. Fine, I am used to that tactic, I explained the context and corrected for clarity.

Claims about future none repetitious and detailed events have no known natural source in the context I was making the claims in. No atom in the universe knows what your grand children's jobs will be.

Yes predicting repetitive, easily predictable, cyclical events are mundane. I would have thought that obvious, in fact I did. I should have known nothing is granted no matter how obvious if inconvenient.

That makes no sense. Making logical deductions from evidence has nothing to do with predicting events and details that are unknowable by deduction hundreds of years from now.

Let me officially distinguish between what your doing a prophecy. Prophecy is independent of probability, known or reliable predictions derived from evidence, or cyclic recurrence. Predictions are the exact opposite.

There is no evidence on your side. There was no evidence of predictability that a messiah would be born of a virgin, die on a cross, and be offered gall many years before he existed. You are hiding in semantics. This is the tactic of a man who wants to get a guilty client declared innocence by procedure instead of truth. I am exhausted with this tactic. You know exactly the difference between predictions about cyclical things and probability but are using technicality as a shield. This like my lawyer example is evidence you care about winning word fight not resolving truth.



I know far more about Tyre than most. I defend it constantly. Do you really want to get into it? Do not agree if you are going to bail or punt. This will get very sophisticated and require time, and it will demonstrate without doubt that no natural explanation is a fit for the prophecy. As I said the conservative odds were established at greater than 70,000 to 1 of a lucky or even a reasoned guess. I suggest we let Tyre (one of the most criticized prophecies in the bible) settle this. I claim there is no justification for suggesting a natural explanation is even as remotely as logical as a supernatural one. Do you accept?




I have not attempted to . It is an obvious fact hat I will demonstrate if you accept my challenge but as no single prophecy has been chosen I can't very well prove 2000 of them. The details of WW2 were not predicted as the details of Tyre were. I really wish you would stop equating things that are not remotely equal.

The claim about my knowledge of the totality of nature is fair so let me clarify. There is no known natural explanation for biblical prophecy. Good enough?


No it is not. I did not say prediction, I said prophecy.


Biblical prophecy is this: To predict with assurance or on the basis of mystic knowledge. Predictions are not that. Predictions are deductions made from circumstances, current or past evidence, and probability based on cyclic data.

That was 100% contrived out of this air and is not even a coherent statement.

I do not want to get bogged down in semantic triviality. The challenge what best explains the prophecy of Tyre as a source. Accept? To give you some hope, of all biblical prophecies it is among the few that even have a partial natural potential at all. Most can't be naturally derived form anything known about nature.

And you continue to do nothing but make insane statements.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
I know far more about Tyre than most. I defend it constantly. Do you really want to get into it? Do not agree if you are going to bail or punt. This will get very sophisticated and require time, and it will demonstrate without doubt that no natural explanation is a fit for the prophecy. As I said the conservative odds were established at greater than 70,000 to 1 of a lucky or even a reasoned guess. I suggest we let Tyre (one of the most criticized prophecies in the bible) settle this. I claim there is no justification for suggesting a natural explanation is even as remotely as logical as a supernatural one. Do you accept?

I've watched several people easily take apart your position on Tyre. Must we all see it again?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
No it is not. I did not say prediction, I said prophecy.

Biblical prophecy is this: To predict with assurance or on the basis of mystic knowledge. Predictions are not that. Predictions are deductions made from circumstances, current or past evidence, and probability based on cyclic data.

Sorry to cut in, but to help clarify my point, calling it prophecy begs the question. Your entire argument about biblical evidence begs the question. It's not logical, it is not rational to think such an argument needs to be accepted as a statement of truth by anyone.

If you want to promote the irrational, which I'm not necessarily against, that is were religion and faith comes in.

Believe what you want to believe but I'd recommend doing yourself a favor and stop pretending that belief has a rational basis. And I really don't mean that is an offensive way. A lot of things people accept as true have no rational basis.

Ok, internally a personal rationalizes their beliefs. But that is not the same as providing a rational argument that someone else should be compelled to accept as true. In failing to do so, there is no reason to expect someone else to respect that belief.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I've watched several people easily take apart your position on Tyre. Must we all see it again?

I see mere assertion is your foundation once again. Since the very assurance of your pronouncements is enough to create reality, why don't you assert me a Porsche and your self some scriptures? I am currently staring at the parking lot in anticipation.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Sorry to cut in, but to help clarify my point, calling it prophecy begs the question. Your entire argument about biblical evidence begs the question. It's not logical, it is not rational to think such an argument needs to be accepted as a statement of truth by anyone.

If you want to promote the irrational, which I'm not necessarily against, that is were religion and faith comes in.

Believe what you want to believe but I'd recommend doing yourself a favor and stop pretending that belief has a rational basis. And I really don't mean that is an offensive way. A lot of things people accept as true have no rational basis.

Ok, internally a personal rationalizes their beliefs. But that is not the same as providing a rational argument that someone else should be compelled to accept as true. In failing to do so, there is no reason to expect someone else to respect that belief.
When I post a tiny fraction of what there is to condemn your claims, like what is included below do people on your side black out or something? Many of those best trained and the most qualified to evaluate the justifications in countless fields for faith have refuted your position by exhaustive scholarship. If you will read the below then restate your claims I will respond to the rest of this.

The noted scholar, Professor Edwin Gordon Selwyn, says: "The fact that Christ rose from the dead on the third day in full continuity of body and soul - that fact seems as secure as historical evidence can make it."

From a letter written by Sir Edward Clarke, K. C. to the Rev. E. L. Macassey:
"As a lawyer I have made a prolonged study of the evidences for the events of the first Easter Day. To me the evidence is conclusive, and over and over again in the High Court I have secured the verdict on evidence not nearly so compelling. Inference follows on evidence, and a truthful witness is always artless and disdains effect. The Gospel evidence for the resurrection is of this class, and as a lawyer I accept it unreservedly as the testimony of truthful men to facts they were able to substantiate."

Professor Thomas Arnold, cited by Wilbur Smith, was for 14 years the famous headmaster of Rugby, author of a famous three-volume History of Rome, appointed to the char of Modern History at Oxford, and certainly a man well acquainted with the value of evidence in determining historical facts. This great scholar said:

"The evidence for our LORD's life and death and resurrection may be, and often has been, shown to be satisfactory; it is good according to the common rules for distinguishing good evidence from bad. Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through it piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up on a most important cause. I have myself done it many times over, not to persuade others but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which GOD hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."
Wilbur Smith writes of a great legal authority of the last century. He refers to John Singleton Copley, better known as Lord Lyndhurst (1772-1863), recognized as one of the greatest legal minds in British history, the Solicitor-General of the British government in 1819, attorney-general of Great Britain in 1824, three times High Chancellor of England, and elected in 1846, High Steward of the University of Cambridge, thus holding in one lifetime the highest offices which a judge in Great Britain could ever have conferred upon him. When Chancellor Lyndhurst died, a document was found in his desk, among his private papers, giving an extended account of his own Christian faith, and in this precious, previously-unknown record, he wrote: "I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the REsurrection has never broken down yet."

"This statement of Lord Lyndhurst was sent to Mr. E. H. Blakeney, of Winchester College, by the late bishop H. C. G. Moule. References to the correspondence appeared in a British periodical, Dawn, some few years ago. I have since had it confirmed in a letter from Mr. Blakeney. In Marty Amoy's The Domestic and Artistic Life of John Copley and Reminiscences of His Son, Lord Lyndhurst, High Chancellor of Great Britain occurs the interesting note - 'A record of Lyndhurst's belief in the truth of religion, and his view of the scheme of redemption, was found in his own handwriting after his death, in the drawer of his writing table.' (Lord Lyndhurst died October 11, 1863, at the age of 91.)"

Simon Greenleaf (1783-1853) was the famous Royall Professor of Law at Harvard University, and succeeded Justice Joseph Story as the Dane Professor of Law in the same university, upon Story's death in 1846.
H. W. H Knott says of this great authority in jurisprudence: "To the efforts of Story and Greenleaf is to be ascribed the rise of the Harvard Law School to its eminent position among the legal schools of the United States."
Greenleaf produced a famous work entitled A Treatise on the Law of Evidence which "is still considered the greatest single authority on evidence in the entire literature of legal procedure."

In 1846, while still Professor of Law at Harvard, Greenleaf wrote a volume entitled An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In his classic work the author examines the value of the testimony of the apostles to the resurrection of Christ. The following are this brilliant jurist's critical observations:
The great truths which the apostles declared, were, that Christ had risen from the dead, and that only through repentance from sin, and faith in Him, could men hope for salvation. This doctrine they asserted with one voice, everywhere, not only under the greatest discouragements, but in the face of the most appalling errors that can be represented to the mind of man. Their master had recently perished as a malefactor, by the sentence of a public tribunal. His religion sought to overthrow the religions of the whole world. The laws of every country were against the teachings of His disciples. The interests and passions of all the rulers and great men in the world were against them. The fashion of the world was against them. Propagating this new faith, even in the most inoffensive and peaceful manner, they could expect nothing but contempt, opposition, revilings, bitter persecutions, stripes, imprisonments, torments, and cruel deaths. Yet this faith they zealously did propagate; and all these miseries they endured undismayed, nay, rejoicing. As one after another was put to a miserable death, the survivors only prosecuted their work with increased vigor and resolution. The annals of military warfare afford scarcely an example of the like heroic constancy, patience, and unflinching courage. They had every possible motive to review carefully the grounds of their faith, and the evidences of the great facts and truths which they asserted; and these motives were pressed upon their attention with the most melancholy and terrific frequency. It was therefore impossible that they could have persisted in affirming the truths they have narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact. If it were morally possible for them to have been deceived in this matter, every human motive operated to lead them to discover and avow their error. To have persisted in so gross a falsehood, after it was known to them, was not only to encounter, for life, all the evils which man could inflict, from without, but to endure also the pangs of inward and conscious guilt; with no hope of future peace, no testimony of a good conscience, no expectation of honor or esteem among men, no hope of happiness in this life, or in the world to come.

"Such conduct in the apostles would moreover have been utterly irreconcilable with the fact that they possessed the ordinary constitution of our common nature. Yet their lives do show them to have been men like all others of our race; swayed by the same motives, animated by the same hopes, affected by the same joys, subdued by the same sorrows, agitated by the same fears, and subject to the same passions, temptations, and infirmities, as ourselves. And their writings show them to have been men of vigorous understandings. If then their testimony was not true, there was no possible motive for its fabrication."
Evidence That Demands a Verdict - Ch. 10 p. 2


How do you even read this tiny fraction of the justification for faith by those best able to explain that and claim what you did above. Those people were paid tons of money, educated as best as humans can accomplish, and spent life times specializing in what you dismiss out of hand. I just do not get it. It is as if Isaac Newton personally justified calculus and you stood and said BS.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
I see mere assertion is your foundation once again. Since the very assurance of your pronouncements is enough to create reality, why don't you assert me a Porsche and your self some scriptures? I am currently staring at the parking lot in anticipation.

I do not think that you and the English language are close friends.

Language is thought, you know. Without competence in the one, we can't really be competent in the other.
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
When I post a tiny fraction of what there is to condemn your claims, like what is included below do people on your side black out or something? Many of those best trained and the most qualified to evaluate the justifications in countless fields for faith have refuted your position by exhaustive scholarship. If you will read the below then restate your claims I will respond to the rest of this.

The noted scholar, Professor Edwin Gordon Selwyn, says: "The fact that Christ rose from the dead on the third day in full continuity of body and soul - that fact seems as secure as historical evidence can make it."

From a letter written by Sir Edward Clarke, K. C. to the Rev. E. L. Macassey:
"As a lawyer I have made a prolonged study of the evidences for the events of the first Easter Day. To me the evidence is conclusive, and over and over again in the High Court I have secured the verdict on evidence not nearly so compelling. Inference follows on evidence, and a truthful witness is always artless and disdains effect. The Gospel evidence for the resurrection is of this class, and as a lawyer I accept it unreservedly as the testimony of truthful men to facts they were able to substantiate."

Professor Thomas Arnold, cited by Wilbur Smith, was for 14 years the famous headmaster of Rugby, author of a famous three-volume History of Rome, appointed to the char of Modern History at Oxford, and certainly a man well acquainted with the value of evidence in determining historical facts. This great scholar said:

"The evidence for our LORD's life and death and resurrection may be, and often has been, shown to be satisfactory; it is good according to the common rules for distinguishing good evidence from bad. Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through it piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up on a most important cause. I have myself done it many times over, not to persuade others but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which GOD hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."
Wilbur Smith writes of a great legal authority of the last century. He refers to John Singleton Copley, better known as Lord Lyndhurst (1772-1863), recognized as one of the greatest legal minds in British history, the Solicitor-General of the British government in 1819, attorney-general of Great Britain in 1824, three times High Chancellor of England, and elected in 1846, High Steward of the University of Cambridge, thus holding in one lifetime the highest offices which a judge in Great Britain could ever have conferred upon him. When Chancellor Lyndhurst died, a document was found in his desk, among his private papers, giving an extended account of his own Christian faith, and in this precious, previously-unknown record, he wrote: "I know pretty well what evidence is; and I tell you, such evidence as that for the REsurrection has never broken down yet."

"This statement of Lord Lyndhurst was sent to Mr. E. H. Blakeney, of Winchester College, by the late bishop H. C. G. Moule. References to the correspondence appeared in a British periodical, Dawn, some few years ago. I have since had it confirmed in a letter from Mr. Blakeney. In Marty Amoy's The Domestic and Artistic Life of John Copley and Reminiscences of His Son, Lord Lyndhurst, High Chancellor of Great Britain occurs the interesting note - 'A record of Lyndhurst's belief in the truth of religion, and his view of the scheme of redemption, was found in his own handwriting after his death, in the drawer of his writing table.' (Lord Lyndhurst died October 11, 1863, at the age of 91.)"

Simon Greenleaf (1783-1853) was the famous Royall Professor of Law at Harvard University, and succeeded Justice Joseph Story as the Dane Professor of Law in the same university, upon Story's death in 1846.
H. W. H Knott says of this great authority in jurisprudence: "To the efforts of Story and Greenleaf is to be ascribed the rise of the Harvard Law School to its eminent position among the legal schools of the United States."
Greenleaf produced a famous work entitled A Treatise on the Law of Evidence which "is still considered the greatest single authority on evidence in the entire literature of legal procedure."

In 1846, while still Professor of Law at Harvard, Greenleaf wrote a volume entitled An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In his classic work the author examines the value of the testimony of the apostles to the resurrection of Christ. The following are this brilliant jurist's critical observations:
The great truths which the apostles declared, were, that Christ had risen from the dead, and that only through repentance from sin, and faith in Him, could men hope for salvation. This doctrine they asserted with one voice, everywhere, not only under the greatest discouragements, but in the face of the most appalling errors that can be represented to the mind of man. Their master had recently perished as a malefactor, by the sentence of a public tribunal. His religion sought to overthrow the religions of the whole world. The laws of every country were against the teachings of His disciples. The interests and passions of all the rulers and great men in the world were against them. The fashion of the world was against them. Propagating this new faith, even in the most inoffensive and peaceful manner, they could expect nothing but contempt, opposition, revilings, bitter persecutions, stripes, imprisonments, torments, and cruel deaths. Yet this faith they zealously did propagate; and all these miseries they endured undismayed, nay, rejoicing. As one after another was put to a miserable death, the survivors only prosecuted their work with increased vigor and resolution. The annals of military warfare afford scarcely an example of the like heroic constancy, patience, and unflinching courage. They had every possible motive to review carefully the grounds of their faith, and the evidences of the great facts and truths which they asserted; and these motives were pressed upon their attention with the most melancholy and terrific frequency. It was therefore impossible that they could have persisted in affirming the truths they have narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact. If it were morally possible for them to have been deceived in this matter, every human motive operated to lead them to discover and avow their error. To have persisted in so gross a falsehood, after it was known to them, was not only to encounter, for life, all the evils which man could inflict, from without, but to endure also the pangs of inward and conscious guilt; with no hope of future peace, no testimony of a good conscience, no expectation of honor or esteem among men, no hope of happiness in this life, or in the world to come.

"Such conduct in the apostles would moreover have been utterly irreconcilable with the fact that they possessed the ordinary constitution of our common nature. Yet their lives do show them to have been men like all others of our race; swayed by the same motives, animated by the same hopes, affected by the same joys, subdued by the same sorrows, agitated by the same fears, and subject to the same passions, temptations, and infirmities, as ourselves. And their writings show them to have been men of vigorous understandings. If then their testimony was not true, there was no possible motive for its fabrication."
Evidence That Demands a Verdict - Ch. 10 p. 2


How do you even read this tiny fraction of the justification for faith by those best able to explain that and claim what you did above. Those people were paid tons of money, educated as best as humans can accomplish, and spent life times specializing in what you dismiss out of hand. I just do not get it. It is as if Isaac Newton personally justified calculus and you stood and said BS.

All you are doing is posting a wall of text of some third party's opinons.

Why should these be considered the best able to explain anything? No evidence produced!

So what if they were paid tons of money? "Live and learn from fools and from sages, you know it's true!" Who cares if they were educated? You are not producing any thing of a cogent nature. All you are doing is restating there opinions and assurting that we should believe them.

Now as far as Mr. Newton personally justifiey calculous, you are being rediculous. Anyone with enough sense does not require Mr. Newton's personal assurance, and the fact that he has a famous name does not reassure me. I can study the details of subject and see FOR MYSELF that it makes sense. Saying that so and so said so and so you should believe so IS NOT IN ANY SENSE A COMPRENSIBLE, MUCH LESS COMPREHENSIVE, ARGUMENT.

Rejected!
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I do not think that you and the English language are close friends.

Language is thought, you know. Without competence in the one, we can't really be competent in the other.
How many times do we have to discuss this? I make no claims to grammar distinctions. I do not even care beyond what is necessary to communicate ideas. You know exactly what I said and that is all that matters outside a crusty English teachers class.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
All you are doing is posting a wall of text of some third party's opinons.
All I am doing is posting exactly the same things used to resolve issues in every class room, court room, and corporation in history. Expert testimony. All your doing is ignoring it.

Why should these be considered the best able to explain anything? No evidence produced!
Because they are extremely well qualified to make the conclusions. People pay them a lot of money because they are so qualified?

I did not attempt to justify their claims here. I tried to get you to acknowledge them. I can supply the evidence behind their conclusions if I see any reason to believe you care about scholarship and evidence. Your denial of them without even considering the evidence is absurd, unjustifiable, and rabidly biased.

So what if they were paid tons of money? "Live and learn from fools and from sages, you know it's true!" Who cares if they were educated? You are not producing any thing of a cogent nature. All you are doing is restating there opinions and assurting that we should believe them.
That makes sense. Who cares if they know exactly hat they are talking about and are universally respected and distinguished for it. It does not suite your narrative. I just cannot debate like this. It is abject absurdity and leads no where. You account for the conclusions of experts instead of dismissing them or I am not interested in discussions with you. I want actual reasons not claims hat anyone who disagrees with and is your superior in countless fields is wrong by default of not being convenient for you. You asked for justification for faith. I gave the highest possible form of it. Deal with it instead of hand waving it away or we are done.

Now as far as Mr. Newton personally justifiey calculous, you are being rediculous. Anyone with enough sense does not require Mr. Newton's personal assurance, and the fact that he has a famous name does not reassure me. I can study the details of subject and see FOR MYSELF that it makes sense. Saying that so and so said so and so you should believe so IS NOT IN ANY SENSE A COMPRENSIBLE, MUCH LESS COMPREHENSIVE, ARGUMENT.
The entire world learned of calculus's existence through Newton and some lesser known French dude. You cannot justify claiming anyone would have known anything about it what so ever without him and that other guy.

Rejected!
Ignored and arbitrarily dismissed for convenience. Again unless you start giving actually reasons for dismissal I am not interested.
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
All I am doing is posting exactly the same things used to resolve issues in every class room, court room, and corporation in history. Expert testimony. All your doing is ignoring it.

Because they are extremely well qualified to make the conclusions. People pay them a lot of money because they are so qualified?

I did not attempt to justify their claims here. I tried to get you to acknowledge them. I can supply the evidence behind their conclusions if I see any reason to believe you care about scholarship and evidence. Your denial of them without even considering the evidence is absurd, unjustifiable, and rabidly biased.

That makes sense. Who cares if they know exactly hat they are talking about and are universally respected and distinguished for it. It does not suite your narrative. I just cannot debate like this. It is abject absurdity and leads no where. You account for the conclusions of experts instead of dismissing them or I am not interested in discussions with you. I want actual reasons not claims hat anyone who disagrees with and is your superior in countless fields is wrong by default of not being convenient for you. You asked for justification for faith. I gave the highest possible form of it. Deal with it instead of hand waving it away or we are done.

The entire world learned of calculus's existence through Newton and some lesser known French dude. You cannot justify claiming anyone would have known anything about it what so ever without him and that other guy.

Ignored and arbitrarily dismissed for convenience. Again unless you start giving actually reasons for dismissal I am not interested.

Do you have a fan page or twitter? I'm getting a straight up kick out of you.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
When I post a tiny fraction of what there is to condemn your claims, like what is included below do people on your side black out or something? Many of those best trained and the most qualified to evaluate the justifications in countless fields for faith have refuted your position by exhaustive scholarship. If you will read the below then restate your claims I will respond to the rest of this.

There is a logical flaw in the statement you made about prophecy proving the authority of God. The testimony of these other individuals regardless of how highly educated doesn't address or change that.

It's like your are saying 1 + x = 4. I'm saying but we don't know what x is equal to. You are completely ignoring that and coming back with testimony of others saying that accepting the claim that 1 + x = 4 is justified. You are still assuming x is equal to 3 and haven't provided an argument to justify that assumption.

Better terms... Bible + God = Truth. Ok, setting the Bible aside, not to dismiss it but because it's verifiability or lack of it is not necessary to see the flaw in the argument.

What you have to justify is that God is in the equation. Failing to do so means that no one need accept the statement as truth. It may appear on the surface to be a rational argument but it is not.

You start out with the assumption that God is in the equation but never actually justify that assumption.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Do you have a fan page or twitter? I'm getting a straight up kick out of you.
If there is a pop cultural institution I will be as far away from it as possible. I will die before I get a facebook. I will also not debate until you acknowledge the same exact sources used by all institutions for reliability.
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
If there is a pop cultural institution I will be as far away from it as possible. I will die before I get a facebook. I will also not debate until you acknowledge the same exact sources used by all institutions for reliability.
LOL, you are grossly incorrect that 'expert testimony' is the exact source for all institutions for reliability. That is hog wash. And I speak as someone who has been called to court numerous times to provide expert testimony.

Expert testimony is one facet of evidence, and it is almost never more than supporting evidence. It is not the only, it is not the strongest, it is not in itself sufficient to convict anyone of a crime.

Second, you have not provided any evidence that your list of charletons are experts. In fact to insist that an expert on biblical prophecy even exists is more or less labeling yourself as a fundamentalist. For the record, individuals with that label are seldom deemed reliable by ANY institution, much less courts or universities.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
There is a logical flaw in the statement you made about prophecy proving the authority of God. The testimony of these other individuals regardless of how highly educated doesn't address or change that.
That claim is actually an official logical fallacy called (I believe) an amplification of uncertainty fallacy. It is the attempt to amplify any uncertainty to a level of dismissal. IF that were logical no court case in history could be decided because absolute certainty does not exist. I am claiming the supernatural is by far the best explanation for prophecy. It may be a necessity but I will not go that far.

It's like your are saying 1 + x = 4. I'm saying but we don't know what x is equal to. You are completely ignoring that and coming back with testimony of others saying that accepting the claim that 1 + x = 4 is justified. You are still assuming x is equal to 3 and haven't provided an argument to justify that assumption.
I have a math degree but hate doing it. These types of claims are not mathematical anyway, but let me see here.

X = the total explanations for prophecy.
Y = all reasonable natural explanations for prophecy.

X - all other reasonable explanations reasonable known x 100% = the probability God explains miracles.

(X - 0) x 100% = the probability God explains miracles.

the probability God explains miracles = 100%

I am not sure that is meaningful but the claim that the best explanations for miracles by far is the supernatural is extremely justifiable even if uncertainty exist.



Better terms... Bible + God = Truth. Ok, setting the Bible aside, not to dismiss it but because it's verifiability or lack of it is not necessary to see the flaw in the argument.
This is a tautology and not a premise. It would only be a result. I do not make a claim like this.

This is also not the burden of faith or even a justifiable position if evidence exists. In this context evidence is information that if true makes a proposition more likely by it's inclusion. The burden of evidenced faith is only the absence of a defeater.



What you have to justify is that God is in the equation. Failing to do so means that no one need accept the statement as truth. It may appear on the surface to be a rational argument but it is not.
I do not acknowledge that conclusion as a premise. It is a tautology. Did you mean it as a proposition equality? If X then Y. I do not get it.

You start out with the assumption that God is in the equation but never actually justify that assumption.
No I did not. If you want o be formal. I said God is the most accepted source or supernatural entity. The probability that the supernatural is the explanation of prophecy would be 100% minus the probability of all natural explanations combined. I made a mistake above. The probability of natural explanations is not zero it is equivalent to zero. In physics the rule of thumb is 1 in 10^50th is considered zero. So 100% minus zero% equals the probability of a supernatural explanation is 100%. However none of this matters. Faith is not based on mathematic certainties. Unless you include justification is probabilities greater than 50% and that is arbitrary. Faith has best fit and most comprehensive burdens in the absence of a defeater.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
LOL, you are grossly incorrect that 'expert testimony' is the exact source for all institutions for reliability. That is hog wash. And I speak as someone who has been called to court numerous times to provide expert testimony.
I have been on two jury's. Have one degree in math and am a senior in engineering. I have watched hundreds of hours of formal debates, been to many professional faculty presentations, and have read at least a hundred debate transcripts. Expert opinion has been the most relied upon foundation in every single one of them. Formal debates and court cased are a constant barrage of qualified conclusions.

Expert testimony is one facet of evidence, and it is almost never more than supporting evidence. It is not the only, it is not the strongest, it is not in itself sufficient to convict anyone of a crime.
Yes it is one. The one you will not acknowledge and a primary one. What the heck is an eyewitness if not a person with unique qualifications (expert) on an event. Almost all of law and academics relies exhaustively on expert testimony.



Second, you have not provided any evidence that your list of charletons are experts. In fact to insist that an expert on biblical prophecy even exists is more or less labeling yourself as a fundamentalist. For the record, individuals with that label are seldom deemed reliable by ANY institution, much less courts or universities.

That is it. Calling Lyndhurst, Greenleaf, and Mosby etc.. charlatans has permanently ruined your credibility with me until further notice. The level of arrogance, bias, and cognitive dissonance required to do this is appalling. The issue deserves better scholarship and care than you apparently can muster. I wil leave you to it.
 

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
That is it. Calling Lyndhurst, Greenleaf, and Mosby etc.. charlatans has permanently ruined your credibility with me until further notice. The level of arrogance, bias, and cognitive dissonance required to do this is appalling. The issue deserves better scholarship and care than you apparently can muster. I wil leave you to it.
"...permanently...until further notice..."? Awe come on, I have to get on your feed.:facepalm:
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
How many times do we have to discuss this? I make no claims to grammar distinctions. I do not even care beyond what is necessary to communicate ideas. You know exactly what I said and that is all that matters outside a crusty English teachers class.

You are entirely mistaken, and I'd appreciate it if you refrain from calling me dishonest.

I'll say it again: I often find your prose so ungrammatical as to be senseless to me. In other words, I can't understand whatever you are trying to communicate. I do not know exactly what you said or even have a vague idea of what you said. I need actual grammaticality -- as do all humans -- in order to confidently follow language meaning.

You don't even seem to understand your own prose. You have admitted that to me. When I've complained in the past, you've said that upon re-reading your own messages, you can't make out what you were trying to say.

Here's one of your latest:

Since the very assurance of your pronouncements is enough to create reality,....

Trust me: That's not clear communication.

Why not take a little extra time and try to organize your thoughts?
 
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