Zionism

[AmbiguousGuy]

And, if I recall correctly, many if not most people now feel that the infringement of white Americans into the homeland of the Navajos was unjust, in no small part because of that claim.

Sure. Lots of people feel it's injust and lots of people shrug and say, "Too Bad, Navajos. We took it and we're keeping it."

But it's funny how what can be clearly called unjust when it happens to Navajos or other peoples somehow becomes unproblematic and reasonable when it happens to Jews, who then take power to rectify the situation.

Well it doesn't seem funny to me. As I say, lots of people have one opinion and lots of other people have the opposite opinion. Anyway, geopoliticial power isn't about maintaining one's ideals. It's about the specifics on the ground.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Nope. Nobody.

Any "special claim" to the Navajo Nation was established approximately 130 years ago.
The Navajo name was established by the Spanish in the 1600's. Before that, they were also called the Diné.

So you didn't read my message. OK.

And, it is estimated that their ancestors, called the Athabaskan, migrated to that general area of the Southwest from what is now Western Canada and Eastern Alaska about 1,400 years ago.

So you're arguing that no 'people' on the whole planet have occupied a piece of real estate for 3,000 years, like 'the Jews' have?

Really?

 

[metis]

Anyway, geopoliticial power isn't about maintaining one's ideals. It's about the specifics on the ground.

As much as I wish it weren't as such, I do have to agree with you. Satellite views of Earth show no dotted lines whereas one country is separate from another, and all so very often these artificial lines under dispute were settled by force, only rarely being negotiated other than through truce. Humans are territorial animals, pure and simple, and there are consequences because of this, whether we like them or not.

 

[1robin]

I dunno. I'm guessing that the Navajos have stated their special claim to their land for maybe 5,000 years. Maybe 10,000 years, if you are willing to call them 'Navajos' so far back. Lots of people have made longer claims to their land than 3,000 years, haven't they?

What is the point here? Are you suggesting that if any cultural groups claims to land are not recognized that no ones claim to any land should be. Whatever is going on with the Navajos has nothing whatever to do with Israel's claims.

 

[1robin]

Sure. Lots of people feel it's injust and lots of people shrug and say, "Too Bad, Navajos. We took it and we're keeping it."

I do not know about the Navajo specifically (I am a Cherokee). However in general the plight of the Indians has been a very central issue in American politics. Money, land, special privileges have been extended to countless Indian groups. Most of the great horse cultures came out of Canada like a bad dream and slaughtered their peaceful Indian brothers (the agricultural cultures) and took their land. No offers of restitution, no invitations to speak to the president, no hospitals built, no education given, nothing but death and misery. Yet those same people who had stolen what they occupied cried foul when the met a superior enemy who even took the time to make these offers. Most classic Midwestern Indian tribes were roving gangs that practiced war as a perpetual institution and had little claims to any land. This is of course a complicated issue and varies by region but in general the Indians acted far more barbaric than whites (and remember I am an Indian from one of the few tribes that were complete victims).

It is in a way irrelevant how any got anywhere at this point. The (by far) most benevolent way to view land ownership is that everyone stay where they are at unless attacked. Keeping up feuds over land that Israel has the greatest claim in every category will not produce peace. The best choice for any Arab is to leave Israel alone. Indians should enjoy the astronomical benefits gained by European rule and live peacefully. The worst choice in every situation is constant warfare to regain what was not really theirs to begin with, and plunge the land back into barbarity and ignorance.

 

[metis]

I do not know about the Navajo specifically (I am a Cherokee).

I gotcha beat because three of my four grandparents were Quebec Me'tis, namely French, Scottish, and Pawnee, Cree, and unknown.

Most classic Midwestern Indian tribes were roving gangs that practiced war as a perpetual institution and had little claims to any land. This is of course a complicated issue and varies by region but in general the Indians acted far more barbaric than whites (and remember I am an Indian from one of the few tribes that were complete victims).

This was mostly during the fur trade with the Europeans, which pit one group against another over a very wide swath of the Midwest and eastern Canada. Previous to that, most were either small hunter-gathering bands or a mix of horticulture & hunting, again with small bands generally believed to be under 100 in number. Warfare tended to be avoided by compromise and/or using lacrosse as a solution to disputes, as these groups simply couldn't afford to lose many men.

Keeping up feuds over land that Israel has the greatest claim in every category will not produce peace. The best choice for any Arab is to leave Israel alone.

Agreed, and this is largely because it's also self-destructive to the neighboring countries as well.

Indians should enjoy the astronomical benefits gained by European rule and live peacefully.

Since it is believed about 40 million Amerindians, and maybe as high as 60 million, died prematurely because of the Europeans, most Indians that I deal with do not look at it this way, but there are no doubt some advantages. However, they know that the clock can't be turned back, and I'm sure there are many who wouldn't want to do so. The question is which is greater, but I've never seen a poll taken on this.

The worst choice in every situation is constant warfare to regain what was not really theirs to begin with, and plunge the land back into barbarity and ignorance.

The Europeans decimated our population, as I mentioned above, so who exhibited the most barbarity? And "ignorance" is a relative thing.

Sort of reminds me when Gandhi was asked what he thought about western civilization, and his response was "They ought to try it".

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

What is the point here?

Well, the point is just what I said: 'The Jews' are not the only people to have claimed ownership of their land for many years. Despite what others say, the Jewish claim is not special.

Are you suggesting that if any cultural groups claims to land are not recognized that no ones claim to any land should be.

Don't know what you're talking about.

Whatever is going on with the Navajos has nothing whatever to do with Israel's claims.

You're mistaken. If you'd like me to explain how comparison and contrast are legitimate tools to use in essay and debate, only ask.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I do not know about the Navajo specifically (I am a Cherokee). However in general the plight of the Indians has been a very central issue in American politics. Money, land, special privileges have been extended to countless Indian groups. Most of the great horse cultures came out of Canada like a bad dream and slaughtered their peaceful Indian brothers (the agricultural cultures) and took their land. No offers of restitution, no invitations to speak to the president, no hospitals built, no education given, nothing but death and misery. Yet those same people who had stolen what they occupied cried foul when the met a superior enemy who even took the time to make these offers.

Right. So if the Palestinians or any other group wipe out the Jews and take (back) their land, the Jews should not cry foul.

I understand your position.

 

[Moishe3rd]

So you didn't read my message. OK.



So you're arguing that no 'people' on the whole planet have occupied a piece of real estate for 3,000 years, like 'the Jews' have?

Really?

So, you didn't ready my message. OK. For your edification, I shall reprint it:
"However, as far as the Children of Israel; the Jews, having a special claim to the Land of Israel - they are indeed unique.
There is no other people, culture, or religion that is centered on the Land of Israel and specifically Jerusalem.
There is no other people, culture or religion that, beginning around 3,000 years ago, continually occupied; lived; and built in the Land of Israel as an essential part of their culture and religion.
And, there is no other people, culture, or religion, that has been centered on the Land of Israel and Jerusalem for approximately the last 2,000 years.
Jews, all over the entire world, have been praying for a return to the land of Israel and Jerusalem and the rebuilding of G-d's Holy Temple in Jerusalem, at least three times a day; every day; 24/7, for about the last 2,000 years.

Israel has a special claim to the Land of Israel because it has been so stated for 3,000 years.
We have stated our special claim to the Land of Israel every single day for over 3,000 years.
No one else on Earth can make any similar claim about anything.
It is definitely a "special claim." "

And, your words - "no 'people' on the whole planet have occupied a piece of real estate for 3,000 years, like 'the Jews' have?"
Is not my argument.
Your words happen to be true but, nonetheless, people like to play with semantics with your argument.
No, what I will reiterate from my above statements is that:

The Jews did indeed live continuously in the Land of Israel for over 1,000 years, between two and three thousand years ago.
That's a fact.

And, the Jews have continually prayed for the return to the Land of Israel every single day; at least three times a day; 24/7; for about the last 2,000 years.
This is also a fact.

And, no - no other people on this planet has ever made any similar kind of claim in the history of the world.
This is also a fact.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

And, no - no other people on this planet has ever made any similar kind of claim in the history of the world.
This is also a fact.

We should always distrust men who come bearing facts.

 

[Moishe3rd]

We should always distrust men who come bearing facts.

You know, some guys would look at Obama and they would say, "That guy is half empty. "
Other guys would say, "Obama is half full."
I peg you as an "Obama is half full" kind of guy. Am I right?

I mean, he is the most prominent distruster of facts on planet Earth right now.
It is a symptom of an entire species of humans who really, really hate "facts" messing up their preconceived notions.

Well, gezunt heit; you should live and be well.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

You know, some guys would look at Obama and they would say, "That guy is half empty. "
Other guys would say, "Obama is half full."
I peg you as an "Obama is half full" kind of guy. Am I right?

Huh? Why would I even think about Obama? I'm a theologian, with little brainpower left over for considering mere politicians.

I mean, he is the most prominent distruster of facts on planet Earth right now.
It is a symptom of an entire species of humans who really, really hate "facts" messing up their preconceived notions.

Right. Since I refuse to embrace Moishe's personal 'facts' about Israel, it means that I am a rigid thinker who refuses to listen to the truth.

Yeah yeah yeah. If you want to make upside down and inside out, I'm the wrong guy to try to convince of it.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Huh? Why would I even think about Obama? I'm a theologian, with little brainpower left over for considering mere politicians.



Right. Since I refuse to embrace Moishe's personal 'facts' about Israel, it means that I am a rigid thinker who refuses to listen to the truth.

Yeah yeah yeah. If you want to make upside down and inside out, I'm the wrong guy to try to convince of it.

As a "theologian," perhaps you would like to make downside up and outside in by offering some sort of cogent disproof of the rather hard core historical facts that I posted.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

As a "theologian," perhaps you would like to make downside up and outside in by offering some sort of cogent disproof of the rather hard core historical facts that I posted.

I saw no historical facts in your posts. Which ones were those?

By the way, as a "Jew" do you think that you might be confusing your opinions about Israel with actual facts?

 

[Moishe3rd]

I saw no historical facts in your posts. Which ones were those?

By the way, as a "Jew" do you think that you might be confusing your opinions about Israel with actual facts?

Nope.
I stated my opinion on the current State of Israel when I posted the rest of the facts that I posted.

Do you realize that you are responding in a peculiar way? I don't know. Perhaps this is how you commonly deal with everything.
However, in the event that you are indeed sincere and confused, I will try one more time and I will take it one step at a time.

Jews pray for the return to the Land of Israel and the rebuilding of Jerusalem every day; 3 times a day; for approximately the last 2,000 years.
Here is one reference:

The Land of Israel
The history of the Jewish people begins with Abraham, and the story of Abraham begins when G-d tells him to leave his homeland, promising Abraham and his descendants a new home in the land of Canaan. (Gen. 12). This is the land now known as Israel, named after Abraham's grandson, whose descendants are the Jewish people. The land is often referred to as the Promised Land because of G-d's repeated promise (Gen. 12:7, 13:15, 15:18, 17:8) to give the land to the descendants of Abraham.

The land is described repeatedly in the Torah as a good land and "a land flowing with milk and honey" (e.g., Ex. 3:8). This description may not seem to fit well with the desert images we see on the nightly news, but let's keep in mind that the land was repeatedly abused by conquerors who were determined to make the land uninhabitable for the Jews. In the few decades since the Jewish people regained control of the land, we have seen a tremendous improvement in its agriculture. Israeli agriculture today has a very high yield.

Jews have lived in this land continuously from the time of its original conquest by Joshua more than 3200 years ago until the present day, though Jews were not always in political control of the land, and Jews were not always the majority of the land's population.

The land of Israel is central to Judaism. A substantial portion of Jewish law is tied to the land of Israel, and can only be performed there. Some rabbis have declared that it is a mitzvah (commandment) to take possession of Israel and to live in it (relying on Num. 33:53). The Talmud indicates that the land itself is so holy that merely walking in it can gain you a place in the World to Come. Prayers for a return to Israel and Jerusalem are included in daily prayers as well as many holiday observances and special events.

Living outside of Israel is viewed as an unnatural state for a Jew. The world outside of Israel is often referred to as "galut," which is usually translated as "diaspora" (dispersion), but a more literal translation would be "exile" or "captivity." When we live outside of Israel, we are living in exile from our land.

Jews were exiled from the land of Israel by the Romans in 135 C.E., after they defeated the Jews in a three-year war, and Jews did not have any control over the land again until 1948 C.E.

Feel free to refute or ignore, as you wish...

 

[metis]

You know, some guys would look at Obama and they would say, "That guy is half empty. "
Other guys would say, "Obama is half full."
I peg you as an "Obama is half full" kind of guy. Am I right?

I mean, he is the most prominent distruster of facts on planet Earth right now.
It is a symptom of an entire species of humans who really, really hate "facts" messing up their preconceived notions.

Really? Seems to me that the T.P. Republicans have won that contest hands-down.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Jews pray for the return to the Land of Israel and the rebuilding of Jerusalem every day; 3 times a day; for approximately the last 2,000 years.

I see. You got me on a technicality. No other people have prayed 3 times per day for their homeland, using the same prayer formula as the "Jews" have used.

Unless they did it exactly as the Jews did it, then their claims are not special, like the Jewish claims are special.

OK. You got me.

 

[Moishe3rd]

I see. You got me on a technicality. No other people have prayed 3 times per day for their homeland, using the same prayer formula as the "Jews" have used.

Unless they did it exactly as the Jews did it, then their claims are not special, like the Jewish claims are special.

OK. You got me.

Yes. I suppose I did...
But, heck, I'll try and help you in your interesting point of view.
Perhaps you would like to post an example of a people who simply prayed at various times in whatever manner they chose for over a thousand years to return to the Land that they believed that G-d (or their particular variation thereof) gave to them and for the rebuilding of their "Holy Temple" in their "Holy City" in that Land (or their particular variation thereof).
And, if you really enjoy that, perhaps you could post a source for your point of view!
Be well.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Yes. I suppose I did...
But, heck, I'll try and help you in your interesting point of view.
Perhaps you would like to post an example of a people who simply prayed at various times in whatever manner they chose for over a thousand years to return to the Land that they believed that G-d (or their particular variation thereof) gave to them and for the rebuilding of their "Holy Temple" in their "Holy City" in that Land (or their particular variation thereof).
And, if you really enjoy that, perhaps you could post a source for your point of view!
Be well.

I'm sure that the "Jews" are more special than any other people have any chance of ever being special.

Hope that helps calm your heart.

 

[Moishe3rd]

I'm sure that the "Jews" are more special than any other people have any chance of ever being special.

Hope that helps calm your heart.

If you insist.
However, I believe the subject as to your inquiry was regarding "claims;" not specialty.