Shermana
Heretic
Do you have anything but strawmen in your rebuttals?
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Zionism
- Thread starter I.S.L.A.M617
- Start date
Do you have anything but strawmen in your rebuttals?
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
Hopeless... If you can't see how both those situations are exactly the same as the Palestinian authority I give up... Believe what you want.
Shermana
Heretic
It is hopeless to get you to back up your statements or properly use your own articles, yes.
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
If the Palestinian Authority is as independent as you claim it is, that would mean the 2-state solution had been achieved and the conflict would be over...
Shermana
Heretic
The situation is rather complicated, there's a reason why you won't see Judea-Samaria listed on many maps, there's a reason you'll see "Palestine" listed as an actual country on sites like facebook, there's a reason "Palestine" gets some form of recognition in the UN, and there's a reason you won't see "Basque country" or "Quebec". It's a matter of interpretation and what you WANT to be the case when it comes down to it.
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
The Palestinian authority is granted the same autonomy from Israel that Basque Country is from Spain (I'm not talking about the UN, I'm talking about the respective ruling parties in each situation). If you're willing to call one a separate country by your personal opinion, you must also include the other, or you're just cherry picking.
Shermana
Heretic
Does the Basque Country Authority collect its own taxes or does it pay it to Spain first to be distributed to them?
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
I can't find that information anywhere; I'll let you know when I do.
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
From what I'm reading about the Palestinian Authority, though, Israel still collects taxes from them.
Israel unfreezes Palestinian Authority tax millions | World news | guardian.co.uk
Israel unfreezes Palestinian Authority tax millions | World news | guardian.co.uk
Shermana
Heretic
Exactly, that's why I wanted to know if the Basques were independent in perhaps the second most important regard.
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
When I find out, you'll be the first person I tell.
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
So, it's the same arrangement the Palestinian Authority has. They collect their own taxes and pay a tribute to the Spanish government, which is to take care of any public works the autonomous state doesn't take care of itself.
Shermana
Heretic
I think that's not at all how Israel does it. That sounds much more autonomous. Israel doesn't collect a tribute, they GIVE a tribute to the PA. Israel collects the taxes and wouldn't trust the PA to report the right figures to them if they're lives depended on it.
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
Oh OK, the guardian article kinda confused me. I see what it's saying now though.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Citizens, perhaps not. Arabs living in occupied lands. Constantly.
Military operations, in particular in Gaza, remain a threat to the life, liberty and security of the civilian population. During the first four years of the second intifada, demolitions led to the displacement of more than 24,500 people in Gaza, with the IDF demolishing on average 120 residential building per month in 2004, the majority in Rafah. According to UNRWA, at least 5,344 refugee families have had their shelters destroyed by Israeli incursions and attacks since 2001.
Operation 'Cast Lead' in 2008-2009 resulted in the highest rate of internal displacement due to home destruction from military operations in recent years. According to a joint UNDP-UNRWA survey, 3,540 homes were destroyed in the course of the hostilities, 2,870 homes were severely damaged and 52,900 homes sustained minor damage.
Some 2,618 homes destroyed or damaged beyond repair during 'Cast Lead' await rebuilding, primarily due to the blockade and restrictions on the entry of construction materials through the Kerem Shalom crossing. An additional 1,624 shelters have been destroyed or damaged by Israeli military activity since 2009; combined, and in addition to housing needs resulting from population growth, approximately 71,000 housing units are required to meet all housing needs.
Palestinians living, or with land located, within the ARAs - the 1,000-1,500-meter wide area along Gaza border on which the Israeli army enforces access restrictions by opening fire, and land levelling- have also been subject to the destruction of their homes and their sources of livelihood:1,367 houses have been demolished in the Buffer Zone since 2005. Click here According to a Save the Children survey of 240 households in the ARAs, up to 70 percent of surveyed households have been either temporarily or permanently displaced at least once since 2000, primarily as a result of house demolitions (48 percent of surveyed households) and heightened concerns for personal safety and security (28 percent of surveyed households). Fifty percent of surveyed families in the ARAs have lost their source of income or livelihood and 42 percent of those changed residence as a result.
The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs
Shermana
Heretic
Ah, we're talking about the periods when the Arabs initiated hostilities and Israel was retaliating to fire with fire and not just in general peace time, at least that's established. That would be more or less indirectly causing such fleeing and evacuations. If you're under the impression that Israel should not fire back at all or is expected to not inflict any kind of civilian disturbance during such times, you should really step back and reconsider. Holding Israel to such a unique, unhistorical standard is simply....Judeo-centric to say the least.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
No, we are talking about today.
For instance, July 17th, 2013;
BEERSHEBA, Israel (Ma'an) -- Israeli forces demolished a Bedouin village in southern Israel for the 53rd time on Tuesday, as thousands protested a day earlier over plans to forcibly displace Bedouins in the Negev.
"It is the 53rd demolition since July 2010," Araqib chieftain Sheikh Sayyah Abu Mdeighim told Ma'an.
"They have brought down all the sheds we built for the summer so we can protect our land and defend ourselves against the oppressive policy of this tyrannical government."
Large numbers of Israeli police officers and officials from Israel's Land Authority accompanied the bulldozers.
Families in Araqib managed to re-build five of the sheds after the bulldozers left, Abu Mdeighim said, with Palestinian and Israeli activists due to visit to the village to help rebuild the rest of the structures.
On Monday, thousands of people demonstrated across Israel and Palestine to protest a controversial plan which would see the forced displacement of nearly 40,000 Bedouins in the Negev.
The Israeli government approved the Prawer-Begin plan in 2011, in what it says was an attempt to address the problem of unrecognized Bedouin villages in the Negev desert of southern Israel.
The 2011 proposal was formulated without any consultation with the Bedouin community and rights groups slammed it as a major blow to Bedouin rights.
According to the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, the plan will forcibly evict nearly 40,000 Bedouins and destroy their communal and social fabric, condemning them to a future of poverty and unemployment.
Israel demolishes Bedouin village for 53rd time | Maan News Agency
And this from Amnesty International
Israel: Demolitions of Bedouin homes in the Negev desert must end immediately | Amnesty International
Juhurka
Member
Like forced relocation, uncompensated and unjustified land seizure and illegal settlements.
Because they are not the only residents of the land.
Are you going in circles again? Get a clue man, I have already told you, when Arabs are ready to compensate 650,000 Jews who were expelled from arab lands had their businesses and property stolen maybe then we Jews can consider anything for Arabs, just as when we Jews will see you mention that, maybe even start a thread about, maybe then, we can take your arguments seriously. but for now you can run in circles, you can protest, you can bang your head against the wall, we don't care.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
And you have proven my point.
You see all Arabs as 'other'. Just as many Arabs see Jews as 'other'.
I am calling on Israel to stop it's current human rights violations, and you are stuck on the past.
Shermana
Heretic
Does that have anything to do with illegal zoning issues? Every country on Earth bulldozes homes that are illegally zoned.
But that's a nice change of subject you did there.