Zionism

[Leftimies]

I see a lot of thinly veiled racism being used in this discussion, against the Palestinians. It sounds like the same arguments racists use to excuse the extermination of the natives peoples of the Americas. "Well, what were they doing with the land beforehand?! Look what the white people built! Isn't it awesome?!"

That's not an excuse for robbing people of their land. What are they supposed to say? "Thank you, Jews, for destroying my house and shooting my kid in the face! Thanks for all that white phosphorus you dropped on my friends! Your skyscrapers make up for all of that!" I mean, really? Try some empathy.

I have plenty of empathy. It kinda goes with being a Buddhist. Had I no empathy, there is no way I could follow a path of compassion. Problem here indeed is the attachment to the land by Palestinians, not by Jews. For Jews it is necessity to have a country of their own, a place to be free in; for Palestinians, there is no such necessity. Their culture is no shape or form unique when compared to other islamic traditions in the area. Not to same extent as the Jews. Yet, they cling on to it with readiness to die for it. I wonder what the source for all the drama is; regardless, its an abundant waste of human life for nothing.

You can call me a racist if you want. But it won't make me one, just like calling me a president won't make me one. Name-calling is a very weak argument, you know. I know you didn't explicitly call me one, but the implications were there. Moreover, if the critique is based on a political behavior of a collective group, in this instance Palestinians (of the Gaza area in particular), this hardly is any basis for racism. Dictionary is your best friend, you should use it to figure out the correct way to use the terminology of your preference.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I have plenty of empathy. It kinda goes with being a Buddhist. Had I no empathy, there is no way I could follow a path of compassion.

Claiming that you're a Buddhist doesn't mean a thing. There's lots of people who claim to be this or that, but don't actually practice it.

Problem here indeed is the attachment to the land by Palestinians, not by Jews. For Jews it is necessity to have a country of their own, a place to be free in; for Palestinians, there is no such necessity. Their culture is no shape or form unique when compared to other islamic traditions in the area. Not to same extent as the Jews. Yet, they cling on to it with readiness to die for it. I wonder what the source for all the drama is; regardless, its an abundant waste of human life for nothing.

Really?! Let me try to spell this out for you.

The Palestinians are the native people of Palestine. They have lived there for centuries. That is their homeland. Yes, most of them are Muslim and there's Christian Palestinians (descendents of the original Christians, mind you). That's because they've been Arabized.

You seem not to understand that "Arab" is a culture and an identity. Many peoples have been Arabized. Look at the Egyptians. Genetics studies say that the modern Egyptian population is pretty much the same as it was thousands of years ago. But they've been Arabized like the Palestinians, some Berbers, etc. have. But that doesn't change the truth of the fact that they're native to that land.

So, anyway, the Palestinians are the native people of that land. So they have every right to be angry and to resist the Zionist occupation of their homeland. That is the source of "the drama". I wonder if you're serious or just pulling my leg with your - hopefully, feigned - ignorance.

Jews can live wherever they want, like anyone else. But robbing people of their land is something else entirely.

I mean, what? Do you think that land was empty for centuries until some Arabs migrated into the era right before the Zionist Jews went there? Exactly who do you think was living there all that time? Hmm??? I mean, just looking at history shows us that it certainly wasn't empty!

You can call me a racist if you want. But it won't make me one,

And you denying it doesn't make you not one. Bigots don't tend to own up to their bigotry.

Moreover, if the critique is based on a political behavior of a collective group, in this instance Palestinians (of the Gaza area in particular), this hardly is any basis for racism.

Saying "look at all the awesome things Jews did in Israel! The Palestinians never did anything great!" is not a "political critique".

 

[Leftimies]

Claiming that you're a Buddhist doesn't mean a thing. There's lots of people who claim to be this or that, but don't actually practice it.

Really?! Let me try to spell this out for you.

The Palestinians are the native people of Palestine. They have lived there for centuries. That is their homeland. Yes, most of them are Muslim and there's Christian Palestinians (descendents of the original Christians, mind you). That's because they've been Arabized.

You seem not to understand that "Arab" is a culture and an identity. Many peoples have been Arabized. Look at the Egyptians. Genetics studies say that the modern Egyptian population is pretty much the same as it was thousands of years ago. But they've been Arabized like the Palestinians, some Berbers, etc. have. But that doesn't change the truth of the fact that they're native to that land.

So, anyway, the Palestinians are the native people of that land. So they have every right to be angry and to resist the Zionist occupation of their homeland. That is the source of "the drama". I wonder if you're serious or just pulling my leg with your - hopefully, feigned - ignorance.

Jews can live wherever they want, like anyone else. But robbing people of their land is something else entirely.

I mean, what? Do you think that land was empty for centuries until some Arabs migrated into the era right before the Zionist Jews went there? Exactly who do you think was living there all that time? Hmm??? I mean, just looking at history shows us that it certainly wasn't empty!

And you denying it doesn't make you not one. Bigots don't tend to own up to their bigotry.

Saying "look at all the awesome things Jews did in Israel! The Palestinians never did anything great!" is not a "political critique".

Calm down mega-man. It seems this conversation will not take fruitful direction. Not now, and not in foreseeable future. Maybe some another time

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

For Jews it is necessity to have a country of their own, a place to be free in; for Palestinians, there is no such necessity. Their culture is no shape or form unique when compared to other islamic traditions in the area.

Nobody NEEDS their own country; that's supremacist bull ****. It's very much possible to retain a cultural identity without having your own sovereign state. Various ethnic groups around the world do it to this day; my people in Puerto Rico have been doing it for centuries, and we're just fine. I see no reason why the Jews should be considered special in that regard.

Yet, they cling on to it with readiness to die for it. I wonder what the source for all the drama is; regardless, its an abundant waste of human life for nothing.

Wouldn't you? They'd certainly have to kill me to take what I claim as mine.

 

[Moishe3rd]

They don't have to "win it" when they've been living there for centuries!

Really?
Where do you live? Who was "living there for centuries" before you? What happened to them?
People lay claim to a land when they can govern it successfully; build an economy and infrastructure; and establish a system of justice.

Those who cannot do any of the above are, indeed, just "living there" until someone else comes along.

Your anti-Arab hatred is evident.

Oy. I know, I know, but really - the guy who has been massacring the Syrians and Libyans and Egyptians and Iraqis and Lebanese and the rest - only looks like me! It wasn't me! Really! I been framed!!!

No really - some of my best friends are Arabs.... Although, I probably wouldn't let my daughter marry one.... :run:

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Really?
Where do you live? Who was "living there for centuries" before you? What happened to them?
People lay claim to a land when they can govern it successfully; build an economy and infrastructure; and establish a system of justice.

Those who cannot do any of the above are, indeed, just "living there" until someone else comes along.

People who establish an economy and infrastructure are just "living there" as well. Only difference is they're doing it in style.

 

[Moishe3rd]

People who establish an economy and infrastructure are just "living there" as well. Only difference is they're doing it in style.

Okay.
Those who are doing it in style tend to be the winners.
It's not all that complicated.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Okay.
Those who are doing it in style tend to be the winners.
It's not all that complicated.

That's all well and good, as long as they don't make the incredibly stupid and pretentious assertion that they somehow deserve the land more. I've no problem with conquering, but entitlement is sickening.

 

[Moishe3rd]

That's all well and good, as long as they don't make the incredibly stupid and pretentious assertion that they somehow deserve the land more. I've no problem with conquering, but entitlement is sickening.

Boy. I am not quite as vehement as you in my condemnation of "entitlement thinking" but - where do YOU live?
I can't imagine a government on this planet at the moment that you must not hate with an intense passion...

I agree with your condemnation. But I tend to try and deal with reality. And, the reality is nowadays that most human beings on this planet tend to believe that they are "owed" whatever it is that they want - including the Arabs called Palestinians.

 

[Leftimies]

Nobody NEEDS their own country; that's supremacist bull ****. It's very much possible to retain a cultural identity without having your own sovereign state. Various ethnic groups around the world do it to this day; my people in Puerto Rico have been doing it for centuries, and we're just fine. I see no reason why the Jews should be considered special in that regard.

Wouldn't you? They'd certainly have to kill me to take what I claim as mine.

I agree with that nation states are bullcrap. Being bound by nationalist ideology blinds you often from the greater truth and freedom. But I have long ago stopped fighting against it because most people don't seem to agree with the sentiment.

Also, the "need" in this context was reference to anti-semitism, that has taken various forms in Spain, Germany, Russia and Poland. Jews aren't special by any means, but the hatred against them does seem to be a very special kind.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Also, the "need" in this context was reference to anti-semitism, that has taken various forms in Spain, Germany, Russia and Poland. Jews aren't special by any means, but the hatred against them does seem to be a very special kind.

Not really. Hatred against Jews isn't any more intense than hatred against any other kind of people. Jews are just more inclined to publicly complain about it and label anyone who doesn't agree with their ideals and anti-semite.

 

[1robin]

I see a lot of thinly veiled racism being used in this discussion, against the Palestinians. It sounds like the same arguments racists use to excuse the extermination of the natives peoples of the Americas. "Well, what were they doing with the land beforehand?! Look what the white people built! Isn't it awesome?!"

That's not an excuse for robbing people of their land. What are they supposed to say? "Thank you, Jews, for destroying my house and shooting my kid in the face! Thanks for all that white phosphorus you dropped on my friends! Thank you for making me a prisoner in my ancestral homeland! Your skyscrapers make up for all of that!" I mean, really? Try some empathy.

Perhaps if they did not hide behind children to lob rockets at hospitals no children would be caught up in the crap they start up. I will give a typical example. The area of Jerusalem was to be open to all people. The Jewish people as usual respected even this ruling concerning their most sacred city and did not resist anyone's admission. Just as usual the Islamic nations pressured Jordan into occupying it. Then they pressured them into launching offensive from the "open" city against Israel. After many battles, mutilations, and the targeting of civilians from the "open city" the Jews got tired of it and took it over. As usual the inept Islamic militants posted any pictures of unintended civilian casualties and began their woe is me routine. Every scrap of occupied territory (Israel, Golan Heights, West bank, the Sinai) was taken for the exact same reasons. In many cases given back once again only to be attacked from them again). If the Jewish people had the unmitigated gall to resist attacks from those areas the Muslims yelled foul and demanded more land. Land I might add they were offered in 1948 and to which they refused. Islam should not start wars they do not have the capacity to fight and then cry and moan because Israel is better at it than they are. Of course civilians get killed, It's war. However by and large the Arabs always start the wars and unlike Israel target civilians in every battle or even in between battles.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Boy. I am not quite as vehement as you in my condemnation of "entitlement thinking" but - where do YOU live?
I can't imagine a government on this planet at the moment that you must not hate with an intense passion...

I live in the US, and have no problem with my government. The idea of Manifest Destiny we were taught in history class definitely disgusted me, though. Any of that "the higher power has given me this land" crap just turns my stomach. If you're going to take something just take it. Justification of your conquest is not only unnecessary, but extremely stupid.

I agree with your condemnation. But I tend to try and deal with reality. And, the reality is nowadays that most human beings on this planet tend to believe that they are "owed" whatever it is that they want - including the Arabs called Palestinians.

That doesn't mean that they are actually owed anything, and I have no obligation to support any claim to such an entitlement. It doesn't matter if they truly believe they are owed something; their belief is wrong.

 

[1robin]

I live in the US, and have no problem with my government.

You have no problem with a debt so large there is not enough money on the planet to pay it? The greatest nation in history, built by Christians like Washington and Lincoln is rotting from the inside from liberalism. I wonder in the rest of the world will send us as much aid as we have sent them when we finally fall apart. Seeing how the US is not a major factor in end time eschatology it does not look good.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Question.

Before 1948, when was the last State of Israel?

 

[Levite]

Question.

Before 1948, when was the last State of Israel?

The last free and independent Jewish State in Israel was the Hasmonean Kingdom of about 150 CE to about 63 BCE. From 63 BCE to about 70 CE, the Jewish kingdom of Judea was a Roman puppet-state, ruled by the Roman-controlled Herodian kings. Then it simply became a Roman province under direct military governorship, with the Jewish inhabitants handling such matters of self-governance as the Romans permitted. Following the failed Bar Kochba revolt of 135, the Roman Empire instituted a purge, began their program of exiling Jews from their land, and changed the name of the province from Judea to Syria Palestina, as a punishment for rebellion.

Since that time, Jews have been waiting to get their homeland back, yearning for it every day, and occasionally trying to return and establish larger Jewish populace (even after the Romans exiled most of us, there were still always Jews living in the Land of Israel, even when their communities were small minorities), only to be turned back or crushed by Christian or Muslim powers.

 

[1robin]

Question.

Before 1948, when was the last State of Israel?

There was never a time previous to 1948 and after the days of Abraham when Hebrews did not live there. I imagine that the official nation of Israel faded away over time during Roman occupation. I will ask a Jewish poster as now I am curious what the exact dates were. Never mind I see Levite has already done so.

 

[tumbleweed41]

The last free and independent Jewish State in Israel was the Hasmonean Kingdom of about 150 CE to about 63 BCE. From 63 BCE to about 70 CE, the Jewish kingdom of Judea was a Roman puppet-state, ruled by the Roman-controlled Herodian kings. Then it simply became a Roman province under direct military governorship, with the Jewish inhabitants handling such matters of self-governance as the Romans permitted. Following the failed Bar Kochba revolt of 135, the Roman Empire instituted a purge, began their program of exiling Jews from their land, and changed the name of the province from Judea to Syria Palestina, as a punishment for rebellion.

Since that time, Jews have been waiting to get their homeland back, yearning for it every day, and occasionally trying to return and establish larger Jewish populace (even after the Romans exiled most of us, there were still always Jews living in the Land of Israel, even when their communities were small minorities), only to be turned back or crushed by Christian or Muslim powers.

Thank you.
So, over 2000 years. And in that time, the land known for most of those 2000 years as Palestine, was also home to many non-Jews. Correct?

 

[Levite]

Thank you.
So, over 2000 years. And in that time, the land known for most of those 2000 years as Palestine, was also home to many non-Jews. Correct?

Sure. Various rulers moved populations in and out at various times: Romans, Byzantines, Mameluks, Ottomans: they all shifted populace as the need suited them.

The land was called Palestinia, because people mostly used Latin for maps, documents, and international communication. The Jewish People have always referred to it as the Land of Israel.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Sure. Various rulers moved populations in at various times: Romans, Byzantines, Mameluks, Ottomans: they all shiften populace as the need suited them.

Much like the rest of the world.

What I am trying to understand here is, what gives the Jews more right to this land than anyone else, other than conquest and occupation?