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"26 reasons why Jews don't believe in Jesus" by Asher Norman

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
OK I read this book.

Some of it I had absolutely no response to and thought the Jews were correct.
Sometimes I thought they were ignoring the very essence of Christianity.

Anyway Indigo Child wanted to have a discussion about it, so if anyone wants to talk about it please feel free and I will invite him in.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
OK I read this book.

Some of it I had absolutely no response to and thought the Jews were correct.
Sometimes I thought they were ignoring the very essence of Christianity.

Anyway Indigo Child wanted to have a discussion about it, so if anyone wants to talk about it please feel free and I will invite him in.
I have not read the book. It does sound like a really interesting topic. Perhaps you could succinctly summarize what those 26 reasons are?
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
They have a lot to do with the details of the Old Testament, the New Testament and history. They try to argue that Judaism is supported by scripture, that Christians make false arguments to convert them, and although they don't mind Christianity they want to defend their own. I don't blame them considering their numbers and what they face in staying in their religion, not that I'm saying their religion is weak.

As you know I have posted many Torah patterns in the "Sacred Texts..." forum that I believe together make the last stand to convince anyone the Torah is right (I only post one per two weeks though).
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
This made me wonder why some would think that Mendel Schneerson could have been (or be) the Messiah. It's been a while since the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans anyway, so it's been a while waiting. Would you think God didn't consider the temple necessary any more?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I have not read the book. It does sound like a really interesting topic. Perhaps you could succinctly summarize what those 26 reasons are?
I looked at a precis of the book and it's the same usual arguments. Which I don't believe. But! Each to his own or how the spirit leads someone, right?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I looked at a precis of the book and it's the same usual arguments. Which I don't believe. But! Each to his own or how the spirit leads someone, right?
Well sure. I'm not really here to change your beliefs, YoursTrue. I'm here to help explain mine, and to find out why others believe differently. Having a greater understanding of each other makes us better neighbors, helps to form a kinder society, and make a better world.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Well sure. I'm not really here to change your beliefs, YoursTrue. I'm here to help explain mine, and to find out why others believe differently. Having a greater understanding of each other makes us better neighbors, helps to form a kinder society, and make a better world.
I can appreciate that.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
I can think of a close analogy which may help you to see the big picture.

If the US government has a crucial messge for its citizens, what should it do. It should pass the message to a US-facing mass media, such as CNN or Fox News, to broadcast it. It shouldn't pass the message to a Russian media in the hope the message finally will reach all US citizens.

Now how CNN actually functions? It gathers testimonies from eyewitness accounts, secures the information from being stolen before the actual broadcasting. Finally broadcast in a US-facing manner. There is a decision made by a CNN authority on that the crucial message from US government will be secured to be intact before broadcasting, then it is broadcast.

Similarly, if a god has a crucial message for all mankind (or else this god can be ignored as he doesn't concern you) he should pass the message to a mass media to broadcast in a human-facing manner, with the explicit command that "the gospel (which is God's message) must preached (i.e., broadcast) to all nations (making it human-facing). The Jews are supposed to be the CNN, gathering testimonies from eyewitness accounts, secure it well before the final broadcast which should be human-facing. They however failed at the point of gathering the last but most important piece of testimony which is Jesus and the New Covenant. Needless to say, they natually failed the next step which is to broadcast in a human-facing manner.

In the case CNN failed the job, the US government may consider to pass the crucial message to the Fox News. So at the point when the Jews failed, Christianity picked up where they left and completed the gathering of testimonies concerning Jesus with the New Covenant brought to us. More importantly, it's to complete the next step to broadcast in a human-facing manner.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I can think of a close analogy which may help you to see the big picture.

If the US government has a crucial messge for its citizens, what should it do. It should pass the message to a US-facing mass media, such as CNN or Fox News, to broadcast it. It shouldn't pass the message to a Russian media in the hope the message finally will reach all US citizens.

Now how CNN actually functions? It gathers testimonies from eyewitness accounts, secures the information from being stolen before the actual broadcasting. Finally broadcast in a US-facing manner. There is a decision made by a CNN authority on that the crucial message from US government will be secured to be intact before broadcasting, then it is broadcast.

Similarly, if a god has a crucial message for all mankind (or else this god can be ignored as he doesn't concern you) he should pass the message to a mass media to broadcast in a human-facing manner, with the explicit command that "the gospel (which is God's message) must preached (i.e., broadcast) to all nations (making it human-facing). The Jews are supposed to be the CNN, gathering testimonies from eyewitness accounts, secure it well before the final broadcast which should be human-facing. They however failed at the point of gathering the last but most important piece of testimony which is Jesus and the New Covenant. Needless to say, they natually failed the next step which is to broadcast in a human-facing manner.

In the case CNN failed the job, the US government may consider to pass the crucial message to the Fox News. So at the point when the Jews failed, Christianity picked up where they left and completed the gathering of testimonies concerning Jesus with the New Covenant brought to us. More importantly, it's to complete the next step to broadcast in a human-facing manner.
If I get the picture, what you're saying is interesting because it was basically the Jews that had been writing their history, including the sayings of the prophets and warnings from their God.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
If I get the picture, what you're saying is interesting because it was basically the Jews that had been writing their history, including the sayings of the prophets and warnings from their God.

"God's chosen people" bears a very special meaning closely tied to what could be considered as valid testimony. It resembles how US government can choose CNN as its chosen and exlusive media. If CNN failed the job, it can anytime switch to, say, Fox News. In a sense, chosen people could = chosen media.

So yes, the chosen people shall be responsible for gathering information from eyewitnesses which are the chosen prophets. They canonized it before the "final broadcast", that is, to sort out what to be broadcast just as what CNN would do on a daily basis. "Chosen People" or "Chosen media CNN" is responisble for validating the credibility of the testimonies. Without such an entity, there could be no valid news. A department (of CNN) needs to determine what are credible to treated as factual. Back in Jesus' days, this role is the Pharisees. They however determined that testimonies about Jesus is not credible to be deemed from God.

Now how testimonies are deemed credible? We humans lack 2 abilities. 1) we can't tell a future, 2) we can't change the physics governing our physical world. So in order for Israel (i.e., the Jews as God's chosen people) to reckon the prophets, God enables the prophets to foretell and to perform miracles. The term "prohet" actually means Israel can determine the credibility of a prophet if the prophet has the ability to 1) foretell and 2) perform miracles. However, this requires them to first overcome their own pride to do so. More often prophets are killed first, and for the next generation of the Jewish authority to reckon them as truly from God by re-examining their works/testimonies, that is, when the Jews can put aside own-price to evaluate the prophets more objectively.

By the time when the Pharisees are in charge, they are corrupt. They are not clost to God enough to actually grant a pass to Jesus even when there are many reports that Jesus can perform miracles, and he prophesied the fall of the second temple as well (there's no second generation Jewish authority to re-examine this though).

After all the testimonies are gathered, it is time for Israel to switch to be human-facing. They of course failed to do so, as a result of failed to reckon Jesus to gather the last piece of testimony. God then authorized Christians to do the rest. The eyewitness accounts though are all from the Jews, possible only so it's deemed lawful. The CNN functions of gathering testimonies, granting them credibility then broadcasting in a world-facing manner fall to the hands of Christians.
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
"God's chosen people" bears a very special meaning closely tied to what could be considered as valid testimony. It resembles how US government can choose CNN as its chosen and exlusive media. If CNN failed the job, it can anytime switch to, say, Fox News. In a sense, chosen people could = chosen media.

So yes, the chosen people shall be responsible for gathering information from eyewitnesses which are the chosen prophets. They canonized it before the "final broadcast", that is, to sort out what to be broadcast just as what CNN would do on a daily basis. "Chosen People" or "Chosen media CNN" is responisble for validating the credibility of the testimonies. Without such an entity, there could be no valid news. A department (of CNN) needs to determine what are credible to treated as factual. Back in Jesus' days, this role is the Pharisees. They however determined that testimonies about Jesus is not credible to be deemed from God.

Now how testimonies are deemed credible? We humans lack 2 abilities. 1) we can't tell a future, 2) we can't change the physics governing our physical world. So in order for Israel (i.e., the Jews as God's chosen people), God enables the prophets to foretell and to perform miracles. The term "prohet" actually means Israel can determine the credibility of a prophet if the prophet has the ability to 1) foretell and 2) perform miracles. However, this requires them to first overcome their own pride to do so. More often prophets are killed first, and for the next generation of the Jewish authority to reckon them as truly from God by re-examining their works/testimonies, that is, when the Jews can put aside own-price to evaluate the prophets more objectively.

By the time when the Pharisees are in charge, they are corrupt. They are not clost to God enough to actually grant a pass to Jesus even when there are many reports that Jesus can perform miracles, and he prophesied the fall of the second temple.
speaking of the temple, I was recently thinking about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
"God's chosen people" bears a very special meaning closely tied to what could be considered as valid testimony. It resembles how US government can choose CNN as its chosen and exlusive media. If CNN failed the job, it can anytime switch to, say, Fox News. In a sense, chosen people could = chosen media.

So yes, the chosen people shall be responsible for gathering information from eyewitnesses which are the chosen prophets. They canonized it before the "final broadcast", that is, to sort out what to be broadcast just as what CNN would do on a daily basis. "Chosen People" or "Chosen media CNN" is responisble for validating the credibility of the testimonies. Without such an entity, there could be no valid news. A department (of CNN) needs to determine what are credible to treated as factual. Back in Jesus' days, this role is the Pharisees. They however determined that testimonies about Jesus is not credible to be deemed from God.

Now how testimonies are deemed credible? We humans lack 2 abilities. 1) we can't tell a future, 2) we can't change the physics governing our physical world. So in order for Israel (i.e., the Jews as God's chosen people), God enables the prophets to foretell and to perform miracles. The term "prohet" actually means Israel can determine the credibility of a prophet if the prophet has the ability to 1) foretell and 2) perform miracles. However, this requires them to first overcome their own pride to do so. More often prophets are killed first, and for the next generation of the Jewish authority to reckon them as truly from God by re-examining their works/testimonies, that is, when the Jews can put aside own-price to evaluate the prophets more objectively.

By the time when the Pharisees are in charge, they are corrupt. They are not clost to God enough to actually grant a pass to Jesus even when there are many reports that Jesus can perform miracles, and he prophesied the fall of the second temple.
speaking of the temple, I was recently thinking about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
"God's chosen people" bears a very special meaning closely tied to what could be considered as valid testimony. It resembles how US government can choose CNN as its chosen and exlusive media. If CNN failed the job, it can anytime switch to, say, Fox News. In a sense, chosen people could = chosen media.

So yes, the chosen people shall be responsible for gathering information from eyewitnesses which are the chosen prophets. They canonized it before the "final broadcast", that is, to sort out what to be broadcast just as what CNN would do on a daily basis. "Chosen People" or "Chosen media CNN" is responisble for validating the credibility of the testimonies. Without such an entity, there could be no valid news. A department (of CNN) needs to determine what are credible to treated as factual. Back in Jesus' days, this role is the Pharisees. They however determined that testimonies about Jesus is not credible to be deemed from God.

Now how testimonies are deemed credible? We humans lack 2 abilities. 1) we can't tell a future, 2) we can't change the physics governing our physical world. So in order for Israel (i.e., the Jews as God's chosen people), God enables the prophets to foretell and to perform miracles. The term "prohet" actually means Israel can determine the credibility of a prophet if the prophet has the ability to 1) foretell and 2) perform miracles. However, this requires them to first overcome their own pride to do so. More often prophets are killed first, and for the next generation of the Jewish authority to reckon them as truly from God by re-examining their works/testimonies, that is, when the Jews can put aside own-price to evaluate the prophets more objectively.

By the time when the Pharisees are in charge, they are corrupt. They are not clost to God enough to actually grant a pass to Jesus even when there are many reports that Jesus can perform miracles, and he prophesied the fall of the second temple.
As far as the future goes, I do agree that much in the Bible is left open to interpretation. And of course, humans are not God.. Yet there are many scriptures that foretell the future. May I ask what you believe about coming events?
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
speaking of the temple, I was recently thinking about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
Temple represents the source of Jewish authority, though the human entity is the Pharisees. When it is declared with the term "bind and loose", it means it no longer represents God or it's no longer God-authenticated. It is later physically removed by the AD70 siege. It signifies that Judaism as a whole is no longer authenticated.

As far as the future goes, I do agree that much in the Bible is left open to interpretation. And of course, humans are not God.. Yet there are many scriptures that foretell the future. May I ask what you believe about coming events?

Yes, I think I can interpret some from the book of Revelation quite close to what is meant to be said. Prophecies in the Bible bears a fold of purpose that,

Matthew 25:29
For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

This basically means, you need to first evaluate how close you are to God, before you even attempt to interpret. You need to stay to the Author to get to something. The best is often that you take a passive stance, it's like "I don't mean to interpret unless it's God who asks me to interpret".

Well, I would say there is actually a more formal "protocol" out there with the effect of "how a task is assigned when you are actually required to do a interpretation". That's usually when you are completely innocent with zero motive on interpreting anything that you may receive such a task conveyed through a "more formal" protocol.

I actually tried to put this "protocol" into some details long ago (18 years ago) and post it in a public forum, when I was like this "completely innocent with zero motive".
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Temple represents the source of Jewish authority, though the human entity is the Pharisees. When it is declared with the term "bind and loose", it means it no longer represents God or it's no longer God-authenticated. It is later physically removed by the AD70 siege. It signifies that Judaism as a whole is no longer authenticated.



Yes, I think I can interpret some from the book of Revelation quite close to what is meant to be said. Prophecies in the Bible bears a fold of purpose that,

Matthew 25:29
For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.
ok...perhaps we can discuss this later in greater detail.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So I'm rereading it and at the start. No Christian missionaries, at least ours, do not say you can be a Jew and a Christian at the same time. However by following Christ they believe they should keep the commandments. When I was re-baptized LDS they emphasized the ten commandments to me and other rules as well.

Jews believe gentiles should follow the 7 Noachide commandments, but we are going by what Jesus Christ emphasized we should do.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I was reading in the Book of Mormon today.
It said that Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses.
However, there are prophecies, events, ordinances and covenants still yet to come!
 
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