Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
They are not promoted or endorsed as having real world or clinical significance.
More or less discussed like spontaneous generation in a biology class.
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Carl Jung and Modern Psychology
- Thread starter Debater Slayer
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More or less discussed like spontaneous generation in a biology class.
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
"Although psychoanalysis is still studied in the humanities, a 2008 study in The Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association found that psychology departments and textbooks treat it as "desiccated and dead". Similarly, Alan Stone noted, "As academic psychology becomes more 'scientific' and psychiatry more biological, psychoanalysis is being brushed aside."
- Carl Jung - Wikipedia
Yes, a number on academia. I'll try to find the article.
I never said they self identified as a religion.
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Again this is false. Are you saying psych has concluded dreams are random pointlessness, or that self-created significance is irrelevant, or that archetypes such as the hero and his journey have no reality or cultural impact, or that spirituality is of no benefit?
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
To be clear then: you think it's a religion but the apparent adherents don't.
Link to the 50+%: Is Consciousness Part of the Fabric of the Universe?
As to the quoted: correct, by any valid definition of the word religion, physicalism will fit, but adherents refuse to acknowledge it is a fideistic faith.
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
Incredible. That's the end of this discussion.
Again, how do you define religion?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It's not false. Psychology is my degree and professional experience. They have discarded that stuff and don't place such a strong emphasis on dreams. Amd definitely no collective consciousnesses and the human archetypes. Heroes, more generally the tales we tell and the way we shape characters and conflict, that's all studied from a different angle that looks at them for what people are actually saying and the way we make sense of the world and whats going on around us and to us.
Seriously, he's discussed like a flat Earth in geology classes or the humors (the bodily fluids, to clarify) in a medical class. It gets a mentioned but the book is not written under the assumption its true.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
This panpsychism sounds like god of the gaps gone solipsist. From that article, which doesn't claim it's true to any degree:
Orbit
I'm a planet
If you talk to professional mathematicians, they are similarly divided into two camps: one that thinks we "discover" mathematical truths that are somehow just "out there", and the other that thinks we *create* or construct mathematical truths. It might be a tangent to this discussion, but I find the parallels interesting.
I always found panpsychism to be an interesting idea, if a bit "sci-fi".
Seems we have a similar degree and background yet greatly differing experiences.
Sure I'm not a fan of panpsychism either, I was citing what I referenced in an earlier comment.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Seems very much like you had the poorer quality education, as your ideas are not endorsed by any major psychology or psychiatric organizations, and people who went to better than me say the same thing as I do.
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
Likewise, my degree was psychology. Also I have a professionally qualified therapist as a friend and she's told me Freud and Jung are largely discredited since there is no scientific basis to their ideas.
Ah yes, shun the heretics who dare question the cultural religion! Truly a great manifestation of science.
I think you two may be missing the point. I'm not saying people are using Jung to run dream analysis on people and such, but their ideas are entirely relevant. Like if one experiences a synchronicity (which is just an objective fact of reality), how do we interpret it? If someone has an archetypal goal in mind for their development, is it beneficial and if so how do we help them reach it? If one keeps dreaming about their abusive ex stalking them like a monster in a child's nightmare, why, and how we we get past such dreams? Edit: and are we just pretending concepts like introversion have been rejected?
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RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
I'm not any kind of expert on Jung, or Freud for that matter, so not particularly well equipped to leap to their defence. But I feel inclined to do so for a few reasons. I have a personal interest to declare, in that Carl Jung's thinking contributed, in some small way, to the 12 Step Recovery Program of AA. Jung was in regular correspondence with some of AA's founding members, and since I'd be dead without AA, in a very real sense Jung helped save my life. So there's that.
What Freud, Jung, Adler and other pioneers of psychoanalysis set out to do, was to explore the uncharted regions of the human psyche, with the intent to put their findings to therapeutic use. How successful they may have been in these endeavours, is of course open to debate. In the great age of European maritime exploration, it wasn't unusual for sailors to set out from port with one destination in mind, only to happen on another discovery altogether. So it may have been, with these early adventurers into the stormy oceans of the psyche. That they got lost on the way, does not discredit the endeavour.
Jung was one of the most sought after psychiatrists of his generation. There must have been a reason for that; he treated patients in acute psychosis, and it's clear he got results. If modern psychiatry has abandoned Freud and Jung (it hasn't, entirely), it has mostly done so in favour of a medical model of pharmacological treatment; advances in medication over the last several decades has been considerable, the results are undeniable; modern drugs are remarkably effective in the alleviation of psychotic and neurotic symptoms, but everything comes at a cost. To treat the chemistry of the brain, but not even to try to treat the whole person, is a failure on the part of medicine imo. That's what Jung was trying to do, to treat the whole person, to enter the bewildering inner world of the mentally ill person, and help them navigate a way back to sanity.
To treat a breakdown as a breakthrough, as Jung was able to do following his own psychotic episodes, is to turn complete psychic collapse into liberation and renewal. He should be applauded for attempting to do that. Discredited? Some of his ideas perhaps are, but how much credit do we accord in any case, to those doing the discrediting?
What Freud, Jung, Adler and other pioneers of psychoanalysis set out to do, was to explore the uncharted regions of the human psyche, with the intent to put their findings to therapeutic use. How successful they may have been in these endeavours, is of course open to debate. In the great age of European maritime exploration, it wasn't unusual for sailors to set out from port with one destination in mind, only to happen on another discovery altogether. So it may have been, with these early adventurers into the stormy oceans of the psyche. That they got lost on the way, does not discredit the endeavour.
Jung was one of the most sought after psychiatrists of his generation. There must have been a reason for that; he treated patients in acute psychosis, and it's clear he got results. If modern psychiatry has abandoned Freud and Jung (it hasn't, entirely), it has mostly done so in favour of a medical model of pharmacological treatment; advances in medication over the last several decades has been considerable, the results are undeniable; modern drugs are remarkably effective in the alleviation of psychotic and neurotic symptoms, but everything comes at a cost. To treat the chemistry of the brain, but not even to try to treat the whole person, is a failure on the part of medicine imo. That's what Jung was trying to do, to treat the whole person, to enter the bewildering inner world of the mentally ill person, and help them navigate a way back to sanity.
To treat a breakdown as a breakthrough, as Jung was able to do following his own psychotic episodes, is to turn complete psychic collapse into liberation and renewal. He should be applauded for attempting to do that. Discredited? Some of his ideas perhaps are, but how much credit do we accord in any case, to those doing the discrediting?
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wellwisher
Well-Known Member
Before I knew anything about Jung, I had been going to group therapy about some neurosis issues. The process of psycho analysis opened my mind and gave me a new perspective. These sessions, along with the help of my new friends, who lived near my new out of state job, allowed me to become self actualized. My subjective ego problems were finally gone, and I was on a healthier path to a happy life. Although ego self actualization had been the goal, reaching that goal seemed so anti-climatic. It realized it was the journey of discovery that was the most fun and alive.
I bought my first Jung book ,The Undiscovered Self, hoping to start a new journey in Psychology. What comes after self actualization? Jung made a point in that book, similar to my situation, about the human search for meaning, which goes beyond overcoming personal problems. I saw his primer book helping me define a new direction; explore the collective human mind and our collective consciousness.
His thesis on the collective unconscious was less about the ego, and more about our common human nature, that appears to be timeless, in terms of any point in history. I had been reading classical literature, to balance my science education, and I started to notice how the characters in those classic books, some hundred of years old, had the same needs and desires that we have today. There was a layer of timelessness, but also a temporal layer within the fads and fashions of those other cultural times; inner self and ego.
A new joyful journey began, to seek knowledge about our timeless collective human nature and hopefully learn to develop our higher human potential. Jung was excellent for addressing our collective and timeless human nature; collective human symbolism and the archetypes of the collective unconscious. I no longer needed help with my ego. Now I was seeking the inner self; natural center of the neural universe.
Jung proved his thesis by showing our collective human nature through collective human symbolism. He liked to use symbolism that was similar in two to more cultures, who had never crossed paths to transfer any information, directly. Similar creative output could occur in two separated places in time and space. This came from things innate to the human brain; operating system, and could appear again and again, even in isolation.
The easiest example to see is the Aborigine of Australia have a world flood mythology. There is no proof of any direct contact or information transfer with the West from 6000 years ago. The Aborigine have been in Australia for 50,000 years and their myth is old.. The inner self, in all humans, have the same neural organization. Symbols and myths can appear in different isolated places; imagination, since these images reflect the same neural wiring of our collective human nature.
The symbols of the world's religions are common to Jung's thesis, since they represent a long period of time, for comparison, and all appeared by spontaneous and creative processes; prophets, and are held dear millions, since they push inner buttons; touch the image of what is within.
I have some different ideas about bible symbolism, such as God resting on the Sabbath and Satan doing the work. This not based on reading and information transfer, but more about applying the inner map to these outer symbols, which the inner self reorganized in a different way; reflect an update.
I bought my first Jung book ,The Undiscovered Self, hoping to start a new journey in Psychology. What comes after self actualization? Jung made a point in that book, similar to my situation, about the human search for meaning, which goes beyond overcoming personal problems. I saw his primer book helping me define a new direction; explore the collective human mind and our collective consciousness.
His thesis on the collective unconscious was less about the ego, and more about our common human nature, that appears to be timeless, in terms of any point in history. I had been reading classical literature, to balance my science education, and I started to notice how the characters in those classic books, some hundred of years old, had the same needs and desires that we have today. There was a layer of timelessness, but also a temporal layer within the fads and fashions of those other cultural times; inner self and ego.
A new joyful journey began, to seek knowledge about our timeless collective human nature and hopefully learn to develop our higher human potential. Jung was excellent for addressing our collective and timeless human nature; collective human symbolism and the archetypes of the collective unconscious. I no longer needed help with my ego. Now I was seeking the inner self; natural center of the neural universe.
Jung proved his thesis by showing our collective human nature through collective human symbolism. He liked to use symbolism that was similar in two to more cultures, who had never crossed paths to transfer any information, directly. Similar creative output could occur in two separated places in time and space. This came from things innate to the human brain; operating system, and could appear again and again, even in isolation.
The easiest example to see is the Aborigine of Australia have a world flood mythology. There is no proof of any direct contact or information transfer with the West from 6000 years ago. The Aborigine have been in Australia for 50,000 years and their myth is old.. The inner self, in all humans, have the same neural organization. Symbols and myths can appear in different isolated places; imagination, since these images reflect the same neural wiring of our collective human nature.
The symbols of the world's religions are common to Jung's thesis, since they represent a long period of time, for comparison, and all appeared by spontaneous and creative processes; prophets, and are held dear millions, since they push inner buttons; touch the image of what is within.
I have some different ideas about bible symbolism, such as God resting on the Sabbath and Satan doing the work. This not based on reading and information transfer, but more about applying the inner map to these outer symbols, which the inner self reorganized in a different way; reflect an update.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
Pharmacological treatment is useful in that it helps regulate the brain chemistry, that can be induced to become out of wack, by thought based command lines; dwell on misery, or by archetype inductions. The constant drum beat of fake news and its accusing negativity can also wack out your neural chemistry; fight and flight. This constantly reinforced negative induction resulted in some students needing safe places to let the chemical induction clean out. There are evil psychology inductions out there.
I often have this down feeling of fogginess. But this foggy brooding state is usually followed by a creative process. I prefer let the down feeling happen; temporary neural chemical change, and wait for the shift. If I took drugs to level out the brood, I would lose something, that the brood was setting up; sine wave.
Exploring the collective unconscious is not all fun and games, when neural chemical changes are induced that are not optimized for the ego. These can bring a memory layer into focus, often with a time stamp for animation; duration of chemical release. Some can linger, with good data inductions.
The most intense part of my research was connected to a mystical psychosis that was induced that lasted several years. I didn't take any drugs for it nor did I seek any outside help, mostly because I did not think anyone would understand. My research had gone so far, and even the early stuff was misunderstood. I took Jung to the next level. In the end, the inner self was running the show, leading to a healing and update process; refined in the furnace of affliction.
I developed what I called Thought Dimensionality Theory, which was a tool to allow me to plot the mystical psychosis dynamics during fast paced times, where mental clarity was lacking. The tool was a simple mathematical analogy for different levels of thought from 0-D to 4-D. It was visual way to know which archetypes were active by knowing their signature dimensional characteristics.