Civilization (e.g. Israel) vs. Jihadis

[icehorse]

When fighting a war, does it matter if your enemies are Jihadists? Does it the fact that your enemies are Jihadists impact how you can or should execute that war?

I think it does. When your enemy makes EXTENSIVE and DAILY use of its own citizens - including women and children - as human shields (and sometimes even human bombs), the normal rules of engagement are frequently no longer viable.

We cannot lose sight of the foundational fact that Hamas is a Jihadi organization. Jihadis will never want to live peacefully with any secular country, or for that matter, any non-Muslim majority country.

The war between Israel and Hamas really has very little to do with Israel. It has to do with secular society battling Jihadis.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

 

[icehorse]

 

[sayak83]

When fighting a war, does it matter if your enemies are Jihadists? Does it the fact that your enemies are Jihadists impact how you can or should execute that war?

I think it does. When your enemy makes EXTENSIVE and DAILY use of its own citizens - including women and children - as human shields (and sometimes even human bombs), the normal rules of engagement are frequently no longer viable.

We cannot lose sight of the foundational fact that Hamas is a Jihadi organization. Jihadis will never want to live peacefully with any secular country, or for that matter, any non-Muslim majority country.

The war between Israel and Hamas really has very little to do with Israel. It has to do with secular society battling Jihadis.

Let's do a mirror test.

When fighting a war, does it matter if your enemies are these African savages? Does it the fact that your enemies are savages impact how you can or should execute that war?

I think it does. When your enemy makes EXTENSIVE and DAILY use of unChristian witches and shamans- including blood sacrifices and hallucinogens - the normal rules of engagement are frequently no longer viable.

We cannot lose sight of the foundational fact that these African tribes worship the devil. These devil worshippers will never want to live peacefully with any Christian colonist, or for that matter, any non-pagan God fearing country.

The war between Christian colonists and African tribes really has very little to do with the European empires. It has to do with Christian civilization battling the Devil worshippers.


Thanks for giving us an 18th century understanding of the issue. Really cool. Really.

 

[Revoltingest]

An argument based on labeling
his side neutrally, and the other
derisively. Hatred for Muslims.
Love for their mass murder.

 

[icehorse]

Thanks for giving us an 18th century understanding of the issue. Really cool. Really.

Hmmm. I think your comparison is extremely weak, on many counts:

First, are you really comparing standards of morals and ethics from 500 years ago to now?
Second, are you really making moral equivalences out of Shamans and those who use their own children as shields?

Jihadis are not relegated to the history books, they are at work now.

 

[icehorse]

An argument based on labeling
his side neutrally, and the other
derisively. Hatred for Muslims.
Love for their mass murder.

Strawman much? (btw, you're helping me fill out my Jihadi apologist's bingo card, keep 'em coming )

 

[Revoltingest]

Strawman much? (btw, you're helping me fill out my Jihadi apologist's bingo card, keep 'em coming )

What the horse says is unimportant, and we do not hear his words.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think it does. When your enemy makes EXTENSIVE and DAILY use of its own citizens - including women and children - as human shields (and sometimes even human bombs), the normal rules of engagement are frequently no longer viable.

IDF headquarters is surrounded by residential neighbourhoods and is a stone's throw from a large hospital.

Is the IDF using Israeli citizens as human shields?

 

[icehorse]

IDF headquarters is surrounded by residential neighbourhoods and is a stone's throw from a large hospital.

Is the IDF using Israeli citizens as human shields?

They would be if their HQ was UNDER that hospital.

 

[Spice]

Shall we go back to catapulting diseased bodies into their cities to make sure we reach the enemy in hiding? Or just contaminate the "humanitarian" supplies, labeling them of course, "For your leaders in hiding, only."

Bombing everything is old-fashioned enough. Why can't we just put the leaders of both sides in a "war room" and see who comes out?

 

[icehorse]

Shall we go back to catapulting diseased bodies into their cities to make sure we reach the enemy in hiding? Or just contaminate the "humanitarian" supplies, labeling them of course, "For your leaders in hiding, only."

Bombing everything is old-fashioned enough. Why can't we just put the leaders of both sides in a "war room" and see who comes out?

Should I gather that you put secularism on the same moral footing as Jihadism? Do you imagine that there is some way for secularists to live peacefully next to Jihadis? If so, please explain how that might work.

 

[Spice]

Should I gather that you put secularism on the same moral footing as Jihadism? Do you imagine that there is some way for secularists to live peacefully next to Jihadis? If so, please explain how that might work.

What you should surmise is that I think war SUCKS, and those who want war should be shut up in a vault where they can hurt no one else, and have at it!

 

[icehorse]

What you should surmise is that I think war SUCKS, and those who want war should be shut up in a vault where they can hurt no one else, and have at it!

Well I agree that war sucks!! Full stop.

But what do you do when you're attacked?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Civilized people don't...
Bomb refugee camps
Use 2,000 pound bunker buster bombs in densely populated residential and civilian areas
Starve over a million civilians
Carpet bomb residential and civilian infrastructure to make it look like the moon and destroying most of the territory
Snipe unarmed civilians waving white flags (like the grandma who was murdered by an IDF sniper, while holding a white flag and her little grandson's hand),
Committ massacres of medical and humanitarian workers
Completely gut and destroy hospitals (after committing massacres of staff and patients)
Use white phosphorus on civilians
Run over unarmed people with their hands ziptied, with tanks
Rob and pilfer through the belongings of displaced civilians
Allow their citizens to block the arrival of aid to a starving population
Etc.

If that's what "civilized" people do, than civilization is a charade and I'd rather be a proud primitive savage.

 

[Spice]

Well I agree that war sucks!! Full stop.

But what do you do when you're attacked?

Well, after 911 we made the mistake of trying to blow everything up. Fortunately we eventually acknowledged our mistaken efforts and sent a stealth ops crew in to remedy the threat.

 

[icehorse]

Civilized people don't...
Bomb refugee camps
Use 2,000 pound bunker buster bombs in densely populated residential and civilian areas
Starve over a million civilians
Carpet bomb residential and civilian infrastructure to make it look like the moon and destroying most of the territory
Snipe unarmed civilians waving white flags (like the grandma who was murdered by an IDF sniper, while holding a white flag and her little grandson's hand),
Committ massacres of medical and humanitarian workers
Completely gut and destroy hospitals (after committing massacres of staff and patients)
Use white phosphorus on civilians
Run over unarmed people with their hands ziptied, with tanks
Rob and pilfer through the belongings of displaced civilians
Allow their citizens to block the arrival of aid to a starving population
Etc.

If that's what "civilized" people do, than civilization is a charade and I'd rather be a proud primitive savage.

Okay, let's see if we can have a real conversation about this...

First, I doubt that much or any of the above is true, so can you provide citations?

Next, let's say some of this is true. No one is saying that war doesn't totally suck. So are these isolated occurrences or are you claiming these are the consistent MO of the IDF?

Next, some of your claims help me make my point. Hamas continues to have substantial support from the civilians living in Gaza. That's important because if you're the IDF, it's virtually impossible to tell which civilians are suicide bombers. Again, the starting point here is that Jihadis scoff at every aspect of things like the Geneva convention. In fact, a case could be made that the IDF cares more for Gazan children than Hamas does.

 

[icehorse]

Well, after 911 we made the mistake of trying to blow everything up. Fortunately we eventually acknowledged our mistaken efforts and sent a stealth ops crew in to remedy the threat.

Sadly, there is no single Bid Laden to assassinate in this situation.

 

[Spice]

Sadly, there is no single Bid Laden to assassinate in this situation.

I'm not familiar with the makeup of Hamas. I had not heard of them until Oct 7th. I do know they've been around for quite some time, and though not innocent, also not IS. Will they be after this? It's a thought.

 

[icehorse]

I'm not familiar with the makeup of Hamas. I had not heard of them until Oct 7th. I do know they've been around for quite some time, and though not innocent, also not IS. Will they be after this? It's a thought.

I'd say that Hamas is pretty much on the same level of immorality and Jihadism as ISIS.