Comparing the Bible to the Qur'an.

[King Phenomenon]

One big difference. Gods son.

 

[stevecanuck]

"Appeal to authority" fallacy.

Mufti says this, Mufti says that..
Quote the Qur'an where it categorically states that .. you can't.

If ‘fasad’ includes apostasy, and we both know it does, then 5:33 serves the purpose.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If ‘fasad’ includes apostasy, and we both know it does, then 5:33 serves the purpose.

Another person, who thinks it's ok to single out verses for an agenda.

It is not for a disbeliever to interpret the Qur'an, in any case.
G-d does not like the excessive killing of anybody ..
..unless they purpose to attack and kill you.

There are many Muslim-majority countries in the world, and they
do not all routinely kill their own citizens for apostasy.
G-d has given us intelligence for a reason.

 

[2ndpillar]

Exactly .. and that was the issue in Madina when the Quraysh attacked them there.
Spies and what have you.

You are using a historical tradition made up and written down by Persians 100 to 200 years after some supposed character called "Muhammad" was murdered by some woman. Mecca existed on no map prior to the 8th century and didn't exist except in the form of a small well located in a desolate area. The term "Mecca", occurred once in this made up Koran, and all other uses are in parenthesis, which means it was edited in, and was not internal to the original text. The base text refers to a place referenced as home of some unnamed "prophet", and described this "prophet's" interactions with Midian, and other northern areas near Petra and not Medina or Mecca, and Petra being around 600 km north of Mecca. The term Islam was not used until around 100 years after the death of this supposed character, now referred to as Muhammad. All the prayer walls of the original buildings built in the 1st 100 years of this supposed Islam religion, all pointed in the direction of Petra, and not some imaginary Mecca. All description of this supposed "home of the prophet", in which the name of the prophet was not given, point to either Jerusalem or Petra, and not Mecca nor Medina. Petra, the home of the Nabateans, had manmade canals, fruit trees, was a major trade center, had a Kaaba, and the Nabateans built structures which are now referred to as mosques from China, India, and throughout the Middle East, and their "prayer wall" all pointed to their home base of Petra. Your whole narrative is taken from northern Arabs, Christians, Jews, and Persians and has nothing to do with Abraham, Eve, or even Moses, from whom Islam supposedly got their 5 prayers. It is all a sham. Except where western countries developed oil resources, Islam countries in general are the poorest in the world, as well as having the most turmoil, and at present, exporting turmoil to the rest of the world. By the way, the Turkish lawmaker who tried to bring a curse from "Allah" upon the Israelis, died. Also, remember that the term "Allah" originated from the Nabatean religion, centered in Petra. Your house is built on sand.

 

[2ndpillar]

Another person, who thinks it's ok to single out verses for an agenda.

It is not for a disbeliever to interpret the Qur'an, in any case.
G-d does not like the excessive killing of anybody ..
..unless they purpose to attack and kill you.

There are many Muslim-majority countries in the world, and they
do not all routinely kill their own citizens for apostasy.
G-d has given us intelligence for a reason.

There are many "Muslim majority countries" but they are generally not ruled by Muslim laws. Turkey is getting into trouble now that they are trying to revert to a measure of Muslim laws. The laws for different Muslim countries differ as to "apostasy". Some are more lenient than others. Some want to give the apostate time to change their minds and "repent".

 

[stevecanuck]

Another person, who thinks it's ok to single out verses for an agenda.

Yet another LOL!

First you say (post 292), "Quote the Qur'an where it categorically states that .. you can't.".

Then you complain when someone does. Your evasions and denials are softballs over the middle of the plate.

 

[stevecanuck]

It is not for a disbeliever to interpret the Qur'an, in any case.

Another absurdity. Two things:

1. The Qur'an implies it needs only to be read and accepted, NOT 'interpreted' ("So, have I made the Qur'an easy").

2. Please tell me how an unbeliever is ever going to become a believer if he doesn't learn what he's expected to believe?

 

[muhammad_isa]

First you say (post 292), "Quote the Qur'an where it categorically states that .. you can't.".

Then you complain when someone does..

Is taking one word from the Qur'an "quoting it"?
Literally, it is .. but it is obviously meaningless.

We need a passage, that indicates its context.

 

[2ndpillar]

Is taking one word from the Qur'an "quoting it"?
Literally, it is .. but it is obviously meaningless.

We need a passage, that indicates its context.

Well, the Koran only uses the phrase "prophet" without a name, except in the case of Yeshua, who would be the "Praised one", such as him being Muhammad, the "praised one", and a "messenger of Allah" (verse 157). Also, the term Mecca, in the Koran, is found in parenthesis, which means it isn't part of the original text. You make up your narrative out of words which do not exist. There is no "Mecca" in the Koran. There is a Bakkah, with olive trees, which cannot be grown in Mecca. And Adam and Abraham did not build a Kaaba in the wilderness of Mecca. Abraham built an altar in Jerusalem, at the site of the holy of holies, in which the Kaaba is modeled after. On the dome of the rock inner wall, you will find the name of a prophet, and that is Isa son of Mariam. The Arab ruler of Jerusalem around the year 691 created Islam taken out of Jewish and Christian writings, to set up a system to match that of the Jews and the Byzantines, who had a book and a man (prophets/Moses/Yeshua). The wind will blow, and Islam and Paul's Christianity will be no more (Mt 7:27).

(96) Indeed the first house to be set up for mankind is the one at Bakkah, blessed and a guidance for all nations. 1

Surat An-Nisa' [verse 157] - And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it.

 

[stevecanuck]

Is taking one word from the Qur'an "quoting it"?
Literally, it is .. but it is obviously meaningless.

We need a passage, that indicates its context.

'Fasad' (almost always translated as 'corruption') appears dozens of times in the Qur'an, and always in the negative. Therefore, anything that Allah does not want a person to do can be called 'fasad'.

Now it's your turn to pretend that's wrong. Please don't disappoint me.

 

[stevecanuck]

There is no "Mecca" in the Koran.

Yes there is. Verse 48:24.

 

[stevecanuck]

Well, the Koran only uses the phrase "prophet" without a name, except in the case of Yeshua, who would be the "Praised one", such as him being Muhammad, the "praised one", and a "messenger of Allah" (verse 157). Also, the term Mecca, in the Koran, is found in parenthesis, which means it isn't part of the original text. You make up your narrative out of words which do not exist. There is no "Mecca" in the Koran. There is a Bakkah, with olive trees, which cannot be grown in Mecca. And Adam and Abraham did not build a Kaaba in the wilderness of Mecca. Abraham built an altar in Jerusalem, at the site of the holy of holies, in which the Kaaba is modeled after. On the dome of the rock inner wall, you will find the name of a prophet, and that is Isa son of Mariam. The Arab ruler of Jerusalem around the year 691 created Islam taken out of Jewish and Christian writings, to set up a system to match that of the Jews and the Byzantines, who had a book and a man (prophets/Moses/Yeshua). The wind will blow, and Islam and Paul's Christianity will be no more (Mt 7:27).

(96) Indeed the first house to be set up for mankind is the one at Bakkah, blessed and a guidance for all nations. 1

Surat An-Nisa' [verse 157] - And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it.

Where do you get your facts from, and why do you believe the alternate history that you seem so certain about?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it..

OR
"it appeared as if they did (crucify him)".

Christian faith revolves around the resurrection of Jesus, whereas Judaism and Islam
revolve around the Oneness of G-d.
..and as we all know, Jesus confirmed the most important commandment in the Gospels

i.e. “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.” Mark 12

No trinity there!

 

[2ndpillar]

OR
"it appeared as if they did (crucify him)".

Christian faith revolves around the resurrection of Jesus, whereas Judaism and Islam
revolve around the Oneness of G-d.
..and as we all know, Jesus confirmed the most important commandment in the Gospels

i.e. “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.” Mark 12

No trinity there!

Well, the Trinity is a product of another false prophet, and that would be the false prophet Paul, and his "Christian" church, which was founded by the "beast with two horns like a lamb (Christlike)" of Revelation 13, the Roman emperor Constanine, who established the Roman Catholic church with its Trinity doctrine, at his council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. . Yeshua told of the coming "false prophets (wolves in sheep clothing)", and how they would lead the "many" to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13-15). Yeshua also taught that there would be two gospels (messages), one being that of lawlessness, the gospel of grace (believe what I say or die), which leads to the "furnace of hell (Har-Magedon)", and one being righteousness (Matthew 13). One message was from the devil and his messenger, and the other from the "son of man". Yeshua's message was that to enter into life, one must keep the Commandments (Matthew 19), not just the foremost commandment, which you listed. The creator of the Muslim religion (Abd al), who built the 1st dome of the rock around 691, castigated the Byzantines for their false Trinity beliefs, while noting Isa son of Mariam, for which that inner wall still stands, in which that writing still exists to this day. Even a blind squirrel will find a nut once in a while. Abd al created the religion of Islam from scratch while ruling Jerusalem as an Arab conqueror and mimicked the Byzantines in the form of the design of the dome of the rock, in the form of the Byzantine church in sight of the dome of the rock, and in the image of the coins he minted, with his image, as was done by the Byzantines. The time of his minting the coin, with his idol like image, was before he had established his Islamic religion, which he had done to counteract the Jewish and Christian religions, which both had their prophets and book. Before the time of Abd al, there was never a mention of the Islamic religion. The narrative of the Islamic religion was written more than 200 years after the death of its supposed prophet, written by Persians. It was the Arabs from Persia who had been mostly responsible for the defeat of the Persians and Byzantines. The northern Arab's role was eventually written out of the Muslim narrative. All credit was given to some nonexistent Arab prophet from a nonexistent Mecca prior to the Muslim year 70. Between the followers of the false prophet Paul and this false character, "Muhammad", there will be a lot "gnashing of teeth and weeping" (Mt 13:42). I just watched a podcast "Trigernometry" with an apostate, Sarah Haiden. She left Islam to go into the Progressive woke party, and now realizes they are just as wrong as Islam, and is left now without form or identity, but she did recognize that because she is an apostate, there were places she could not go without fear of death, being a Muslim apostate.

 

[2ndpillar]

Where do you get your facts from, and why do you believe the alternate history that you seem so certain about?

I thought I listed the verses in the Koran. The Islamic narrative puts olives as well as gardens and fruit trees in Mecca. Olive trees are not found it Mecca, it is a desert wilderness now as well as in the 7th century. Pick up a Koran, and you will find the word "Mecca" in parenthesis. That is because it is not in the original text, and was written in. The Koran refers to the "prophet" yet does not give a name of that prophet. On the other hand, it states the name "Isa son of Mariam", which is the prophet Yeshua. The history of Islam starts with the Arab Abd al, who in around 691 AD built the 1st dome of the rock. The reason there were no early copies of the Koran, is because they didn't exist, despite the Islamic narrative of them being written shortly after the death of this ghostly "Mohammad", and supposedly sent copies to all the large Arab ran cities. They will tell you that the Khan from the East came and burnt them all. If you believe that, I think I can get you a good price on the Brooklyn Bridge. Muslim's can't question anything, because that would be blasphemy, and the judgment for blasphemy in the Muslim religion is not good. The "woke" can't question anything, because that would be Islamic phobic. Anyway, "Christians" on the whole, are as lost as the Muslims. As for Atheist, their god is Lucifer, and they generally don't even admit it. As for what is going to come of it, well Revelation says 2/3 of the world will die of fire, disease, the sword, etc. (Rev). For the walking dead, it should be a form of release. For the living, well, they can always go into their room and "shut the door" for a short time (Isaiah).

 

[2ndpillar]

Yes there is. Verse 48:24.

48:24 to top Sahih International And it is He who withheld their hands from you and your hands from them within [the area of] Makkah after He caused you to overcome them. And ever is Allah of what you do, Seeing. Copyright © Quran.com. All rights reserved.

There was no "Mecca" in the year 632 A.D. Abraham didn't build a Kaaba in "Mecca" and was never in "Mecca" as described in the Islamic narrative. The original Kaaba was built by the Nabateans in Petra, and it was indeed supposedly the cubed shaped house of idols. The architecture of the Kaaba came from the Holy of Holies located in Jerusalem. The Nabateans were indeed worldwide traders, users of the silk road, and sent their dead back to Petra, as can be shown by all the worldwide architectural crypts built into the Petra mountains. The Islamic narrative has this "Mohammad" character regularly interacting with the communities 600 km to the north of "Mecca", in the region of Petra. Petra had a large reservoir in the mountains with channels leading to the city center, and was full of gardens and fruit trees, which the Islamic narrative now resets it in the desert of the region of "Mecca". The channels still exist to this day. Medina was on a trade route, "Mecca" was not. "Mecca" was not even on any map of the time period. According to the Islamic narrative, Adam first built the Kaaba in "Mecca". There was no "Mecca" 5000 years ago. According to records, the trade of Medina was mostly animal hides from Yemen going north. The spices from the far East would go by water past "Mecca", with ports with water, located on the east side of the Red Sea. No reason to ship by way of the isolated wilderness area of this supposed "Mecca".

Note: Makkah is often intertwined with the term Bakka, in which "Bakka"/Bacca is described in the Koran, as the area near the Kaaba. The descriptive Islamic narrative around the Kaaba matches Petra, not "Mecca". The "black stone" of the Kaaba was moved from Petra to Mecca around the Muslim year of 70. The direction of the prayer wall started moving from the direction of Petra to Mecca around 100 years after the ghostly "Mohammad" miraculously wasn't able to prophesize his poisoning by a disgruntled woman. The early directional prayer walls were within around 1% of an accurate bearing, probably because the Nabatean traders had a type of sextant, made up of an arm length cord with knots, combined with the location of the north star gave them their latitude while traversing the endless deserts. Repeating chants and recording the number of repeated chants on beads gave them distance. The later directional prayer walls only averaged within around 3% of the actual bearing, but they either pointed in the direction of Mecca or the bearing of Petra to Mecca, or a point between the two, for political reasons.

 

[stevecanuck]

I thought I listed the verses in the Koran. The Islamic narrative puts olives as well as gardens and fruit trees in Mecca. Olive trees are not found it Mecca, it is a desert wilderness now as well as in the 7th century. Pick up a Koran, and you will find the word "Mecca" in parenthesis. That is because it is not in the original text, and was written in. The Koran refers to the "prophet" yet does not give a name of that prophet. On the other hand, it states the name "Isa son of Mariam", which is the prophet Yeshua. The history of Islam starts with the Arab Abd al, who in around 691 AD built the 1st dome of the rock. The reason there were no early copies of the Koran, is because they didn't exist, despite the Islamic narrative of them being written shortly after the death of this ghostly "Mohammad", and supposedly sent copies to all the large Arab ran cities. They will tell you that the Khan from the East came and burnt them all. If you believe that, I think I can get you a good price on the Brooklyn Bridge. Muslim's can't question anything, because that would be blasphemy, and the judgment for blasphemy in the Muslim religion is not good. The "woke" can't question anything, because that would be Islamic phobic. Anyway, "Christians" on the whole, are as lost as the Muslims. As for Atheist, their god is Lucifer, and they generally don't even admit it. As for what is going to come of it, well Revelation says 2/3 of the world will die of fire, disease, the sword, etc. (Rev). For the walking dead, it should be a form of release. For the living, well, they can always go into their room and "shut the door" for a short time (Isaiah).

I asked you where you got your 'facts' from.

You didn't answer.

So, you're on your own. Bye.

 

[2ndpillar]

I asked you where you got your 'facts' from.

You didn't answer.

So, you're on your own. Bye.

Facts on what? I gave chapter and verse. I can give you sources for the references to on Makka/Mecca/Becca/Bacca/Bakka controversy and rewriting of the Koran and Islamic history by the Abbasids after the 2nd Arab civil war, after all former writings were burned per the Islamic Narrative. A good source is "Absolute History" by Dan Gibson, an archeologist who has lived in the middle east for the last 30 years. His analysis is narrowly based and glosses over some of other important issues. In the Arabic language of the supposed "Muhammad", whose parents were Sabbatians, and lived next to Petra, the difference between the word Mecca, and Becca is a slight slash added at the bottom of Becca, in which the takeover by the Abbasids corresponded to the introduction of Mecca into the Islamic narrative. The role of the Umayyad Arabs, from Damascus, after that point was written out of the narrative. Becca/Bekka was supposedly the marked space near the Kaaba, in which killing was forbidden. Mecca has no such place, but Petra does.

 

[Muffled]

Can you kill God? Did "God" have a beginning? Is "Jesus"/Yeshua more a tabernacle of God then his "brothers" & "sisters" who do the will of God?
It is one thing to be "LORD", and another to be "Lord". If you do the will of Satan, you are a son of Satan/devil. If you do the will of God, you are a son of God. (1 John 3:9)

Matthew 12:48-50​

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”​

1 John 3:8. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil,

No but you can kill the flesh and Jesus is both flesh and Spirit.

No but Jesus has a beginning of God in the flesh as a baby. Quite likely He did an appearance as an adult visiting Abraham.

I believe Jesus is an incarnation not a tabernacle and therefore different from His brothers and sisters.

I believe that is Lord and lord and true and Jesus is Lord.

 

[Muffled]

To me, that is a contradiction.

..but then you solved that contradiction by claiming that Jesus is 'fully man and fully God'.
..which makes little logical sense, but then I am told it doesn't have to.

I believe that depends on how you perceive it. Certainly Jesus appears to be fully human to His disciples but the fact is that He is 1/2 creation and we don't know if God changed things around to suit Him. God is one so the fact that God is omnipresent does not affect that one gets God in Jesus.

Please explain how that works because I don't see it.