God: Trinity or Unity?

[Kenny]

I do not say that Soul and Spirit are the same things.

Soul and Spirit are EXACTLY THE SAME MEANING

Contradictory

Can you explain Hebrews 4:12: ‘Dividing Soul AND Spirit’…

No, YOU explain 1 Thess 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 - you are the one that says spirit and soul is the same thing which makes these two verses unintelligible.

 

[Soapy]

Contradictory



No, YOU explain 1 Thess 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 - you are the one that says spirit and soul is the same thing which makes these two verses unintelligible.

Oh Kenny, you are doing the same as Brian2.

Yes, you are right that a particular that Thessalonian COMMENTARY CONTRADICTS itself in translation and interpretation of ‘Soul’ and ‘Spirit’ but ‘I DID NOT SAY IT’ that ‘Soul’ and ‘Spirit’ are the same things or meaning. I explained to you AT LENGTH and in different degrees what I think. The last point was showing what I felt was a CONFUSED possibly HELLENISTIC interpretation from 1 Thes 5:12 which IT uses the GREEK terms for ‘Soul’ and ‘Spirit’ which were banging on exactly the same… which is why the verse does not make sense: ‘Dividing Soul and Spirit’??

‘SOUL’ is a direct substitution for ‘PERSON’.
‘Spirit’ is the ANIMATING FORCE that drives the body of a SOUL/PERSON. How do you say that I’m saying that ‘Soul’ and ‘Spirit’ are the same things.

You appear to ignore all that I wrote to you including the direct replies to 1 Thes 5 and Hebrews 4 and then claim that I ignored the request for an answer to you concerning those verses!!!!!!?????

All in all, I think you realise you were wrong and are just nitpicking at pointless issues and claiming I didn’t answer you (again) when all can see that I EXPRESSLY presented answers to you!!

In fact, it is even YOU who cannot explain either the Thessalonians or the Hebrews verse WHICH IS WHY YOU STRONGLY REFUSE to even show what YOU think it means!

 

[Kenny]

Oh Kenny, you are doing the same as Brian2.

Yes, you are right that a particular that Thessalonian COMMENTARY CONTRADICTS itself in translation and interpretation of ‘Soul’ and ‘Spirit’ but ‘I DID NOT SAY IT’ that ‘Soul’ and ‘Spirit’ are the same things or meaning. I explained to you AT LENGTH and in different degrees what I think. The last point was showing what I felt was a CONFUSED possibly HELLENISTIC interpretation from 1 Thes 5:12 which IT uses the GREEK terms for ‘Soul’ and ‘Spirit’ which were banging on exactly the same… which is why the verse does not make sense: ‘Dividing Soul and Spirit’??

‘SOUL’ is a direct substitution for ‘PERSON’.
‘Spirit’ is the ANIMATING FORCE that drives the body of a SOUL/PERSON. How do you say that I’m saying that ‘Soul’ and ‘Spirit’ are the same things.

You appear to ignore all that I wrote to you including the direct replies to 1 Thes 5 and Hebrews 4 and then claim that I ignored the request for an answer to you concerning those verses!!!!!!?????

All in all, I think you realise you were wrong and are just nitpicking at pointless issues and claiming I didn’t answer you (again) when all can see that I EXPRESSLY presented answers to you!!

In fact, it is even YOU who cannot explain either the Thessalonians or the Hebrews verse WHICH IS WHY YOU STRONGLY REFUSE to even show what YOU think it means!

LOL - I figured you couldn't explain it.

 

[seekandfind]

I firmly believe He's a Unity

What do you mean by a unity?

 

[Soapy]

LOL - I figured you couldn't explain it.

That’s how you explain your failing???

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

logic not religion would support the view

Your punctuation is wrong. A sentence should not end with a comma.
It is also against the rules of the forum. You should have written "I believe there is only one FSM ..".
Other people may have different beliefs.
I have got many warnings for saying 'There is no God."

Your spirit is saved if it is kept in a cool place.

Logic not a personal religion would support the view that there was only a need for one Creator God. when the job was done it was done.

However there could of course have been other gods with other roles.

Of course what "I write" is of necessity my own personal view. as is the case with all other posters. there is no need to keep repeating "I believe" that is taken for granted. If I were to speak for, or quote someone else, I would say so.

 

[cataway]

Contradictory



No, YOU explain 1 Thess 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 - you are the one that says spirit and soul is the same thing which makes these two verses unintelligible.

to a point, soul and spirit are one ,,,,,,,to a point. the spirit is little more than bio-chemical electricity .when that is gone the body or soul is known to be dead. every living animal has the same bio-chemical electrical force .as one dies so does the others.

 

[Kenny]

to a point, soul and spirit are one ,,,,,,,to a point. the spirit is little more than bio-chemical electricity .when that is gone the body or soul is known to be dead. every living animal has the same bio-chemical electrical force .as one dies so does the others.

Yes... they are one! But they aren't the same thing. In light of my signature, the spirit is what sets mankind above animals that have souls. But we believe the bio-chemicals is just responding to the spirit through the elbow of the soul.

 

[cataway]

Yes... they are one! But they aren't the same thing. In light of my signature, the spirit is what sets mankind above animals that have souls. But we believe the bio-chemicals is just responding to the spirit through the elbow of the soul.

no, animals and even man have the same spirit
ECCLESIASTES
3
18 I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

 

[Soapy]

to a point, soul and spirit are one ,,,,,,,to a point. the spirit is little more than bio-chemical electricity .when that is gone the body or soul is known to be dead. every living animal has the same bio-chemical electrical force .as one dies so does the others.

Cataway, think of a DEVICE, a SYSTEM, as the SOUL / PERSON that is software directing hardware.

Think of the SPIRIT as the computer programme of the device… the SOFTWARE that instructs the hardware of the device how to function and what to do.

Think of the BODY as the hardware, thd MACHINERY, that can do nothing except what the software instructs it to do.


The hardware / machinery is created … it’s an UNLIVING DEVICE… The DEVICE exists but is nonfunctional because there is no SOFTWARE to animate it. Then when the software programme is put into the device, the machinery is ENLIVENED and the device becomes a LIVING DEVICE… an ANIMATED Soul… a LIVING SOUL.

Now here is the controversy that pervades the understanding - which it appears is the struggling point of the understanding:

• The software cannot be KILLED (off) because of is just bits and bytes. It’s stored in a copy outside the machinery hardware
• The hardware CAN be killed!!! Damaged so it no longer can be operated by the software within it. The software ‘evaporates’ from the machinery hardware and the machinery is useless and ‘decays to rust and dust
• The Device STILL EXISTS as a blueprint so IT IS NOT KILLED
• But if the SOFTWARE is DESTROYED from its stored position then there can be no way to resuscitate the system … there can be no way to reanimate the hardware - the hardware decays to rust and dust - therefore THE WHOLE DEVICE is thence DESTROYED because BOTH software and hardware are destroyed

‘Do not fear them who can KILL the machine but cannot kill the Software; Fear Him who can DESTROY both The Device and the Software in fire’.

Note the difference between ‘KILL’ and ‘DESTROY’. What can or cannot be DESTROYED.

Kill is linked to Die / DEAD. A DEAD (Killed) person is one in whom the spirit is made to be removed from the body by way of it not able to communicate with the body it was in and the external stimuli it receives through the senses in the body. As a result the body, which cannot by itself make sense of itself and its environment, decays for want of sustenance. The spirit is resting with God like software on the ‘software shelf’ awaiting a renewed body to be put into.

As long the SOFTWARE / SPIRIT exists the DEVICE / PERSON / SOUL exists. And there is the great error in the understanding:

• Because the SOUL exists BECAUSE the SPIRIT exists, many believe that the SOUL IS THE SPIRIT…
• Because the Soul exists AND ITS SPIRIT exists, many think the Soul IS ANOTHER part of…. (Another part of what??? The PERSON??)

No! It is simply the DESPERATION to CLAIM there are three parts to a human being because Man is image of God and TRINITY says there are three PERSONS in / as God… so man must… also be three parts.

This wrongful aspect only arises AFTER the question was asked:

• ‘If man is image of God - and God is three - how is it man is only TWO PARTS: Body and Spirit?’

Thus, the great trinitarian deceit machine went into overdrive and came up with the solution that:

• Man is three parts: Soul / Spirit / Body

But they haven’t worked out what ‘SOUL’ is in relation to ‘Spirit’… and you see the GREEK for Soul is effectively the SAME AS the HEBREW for the ‘Soul’.

And, in Latin, some 1100 years after the Jesus’ birth, the term ‘PERSON’ came into use as a replacement for ‘SOUL’. But we still use remnants of ‘Soul’, meaning ‘Person’ in everyday usage:

• ‘I searched the burning building and there wasn’t a Soul left in there’ : ‘There was no PERSON (PEOPLE) in there!’
• ‘Oh my soul…’ : ‘Oh ME…’

It gets really tedious reading clearly wrongful ideology from those desperate to maintain their belief. I wonder how they hurt their ‘image of God’ humanity when they claim against the godliness that is in that image of God: Truth and Righteousness, and the Love of such!? It becomes simply a game of ‘how deceitful can I be… I don’t want to admit my understanding is false so I’ll just write a load of nonsense and hope to frustrate the opposition till THEY make an error and I can seize on it and pound them to dust by forever pushing it back in their face…’You made an error before.. why should we believe you again??’

 

[Soapy]

no, animals and even man have the same spirit
ECCLESIASTES
3
18 I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

Cataway, it is not ‘THE SAME SPIRIT’… it is that THE SPIRIT does the SAME THING in both man and animal… it ANIMATES the body…. Directs the body as to how to act and perform, to maintain the body, to desire procreation, to defend and attack towards a threat.

But the writer is despairing without the consideration of a resurrection. He claims all is futile for both man and animal but he forgets or does not consider that the Spirit of man will be put back into a resurrected body… an animal (take away sentimentality of animal lovers) will not be resurrected.

Remember, also, that UNLESS the Messiah comes and DIES for mankind DEATH AND ETERNAL DESTRUCTION will come to ALL MANKIND… and so it is that ALL LIFE is futile UNLESS there is a resurrection but that resurrection is only for ‘The Image of God’: Mankind.

 

[cataway]

Cataway, it is not ‘THE SAME SPIRIT’… it is that THE SPIRIT does the SAME THING in both man and animal… it ANIMATES the body…. Directs the body as to how to act and perform, to maintain the body, to desire procreation, to defend and attack towards a threat.

But the writer is despairing without the consideration of a resurrection. He claims all is futile for both man and animal but he forgets or does not consider that the Spirit of man will be put back into a resurrected body… an animal (take away sentimentality of animal lovers) will not be resurrected.

Remember, also, that UNLESS the Messiah comes and DIES for mankind DEATH AND ETERNAL DESTRUCTION will come to ALL MANKIND… and so it is that ALL LIFE is futile UNLESS there is a resurrection but that resurrection is only for ‘The Image of God’: Mankind.

you have contradicted scripture

 

[Soapy]

you have contradicted scripture

Please, if I’m failing to understand, show me what I said was not right. What did I say that contradicts scriptures.

 

[cataway]

Please, if I’m failing to understand, show me what I said was not right. What did I say that contradicts scriptures.

ECCLESIASTES
3
"18 I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."

you said " it is not ‘THE SAME SPIRIT"

 

[Soapy]

ECCLESIASTES
3
"18 I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."

you said " it is not ‘THE SAME SPIRIT"

But, Cataway, the Spirit of man rests with God at death of the body.

The Spirit of an animal is destroyed at death of the body of the animal.

The Spirit of man is put back into a resurrected body to make the man a living Soul again because man is image of God!

Or are you suggesting that God preserves the Spirit of animals and will resurrect the souls of animals as well?

Does this verse from Eccl 3:23 make my point clearer to you:

• “Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

Moreover, the writer is in despair at the futility of life. He is pondering that all living things have A SPIRIT - something that enlivens the flesh that is lost to the world at death in the body. That is the ‘sameness’ or ‘one’ [type] of Spirit that he is referring to. But then later he states as in verse 23 that no one knows where the spirit of man or animal goes at death. BUT WE KNOW NOW that the spirit of man [goes up]… and the spirit of animals [goes down]…

The Spirit of man is what makes him ‘IMAGE OF GOD’ but the Spirit of an animal does not make it ‘Image of God’.

There is a VAST DIFFERENCE in the two.

 

[cataway]

But, Cataway, the Spirit of man rests with God at death of the body.

The Spirit of an animal is destroyed at death of the body of the animal.

The Spirit of man is put back into a resurrected body to make the man a living Soul again because man is image of God!

Or are you suggesting that God preserves the Spirit of animals and will resurrect the souls of animals as well?

Does this verse from Eccl 3:23 make my point clearer to you:

• “Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

Moreover, the writer is in despair at the futility of life. He is pondering that all living things have A SPIRIT - something that enlivens the flesh that is lost to the world at death in the body. That is the ‘sameness’ or ‘one’ [type] of Spirit that he is referring to. But then later he states as in verse 23 that no one knows where the spirit of man or animal goes at death. BUT WE KNOW NOW that the spirit of man [goes up]… and the spirit of animals [goes down]…

The Spirit of man is what makes him ‘IMAGE OF GOD’ but the Spirit of an animal does not make it ‘Image of God’.

There is a VAST DIFFERENCE in the two.

there are 13 -14 definitions of spirit .which are you using?

 

[Soapy]

there are 13 -14 definitions of spirit .which are you using?

Well, I’m not using the definition that means the actual breath that is air going into the lungs or expelled as waste gas…!

Always, when discussing the scriptures, it is the SPIRITUAL ASPECT that is in use (unless stated otherwise). The scriptures are about SPIRITUALNESS… so things like DNA and Chromesones and what the brain is or the heart (classic case of talking about the physical rather than the spiritual!) are not part of what I discuss.

So, which definition of ‘Spirit’ am I talking about? The same definition that is applied to the enlivening of the body of Adam ‘in the beginning of the generation of mankind’ when God ‘breathed’ the spirit into Adam’s lifeless body.

This ‘Spirit’ is which GOD CREATES that enlivens the body, the flesh, of an his ‘Image’.

This Spirit is not the same type of Spirit of Spirit as given to animals: Animals are flesh enlivened by a spirit that is not ‘Image of God’… so that at their behaviour is on a simplistic rote of feeding, breeding, survival, and group unity. Death results in the destruction of the Spirit and there is no resurrection of it.

The Spirit that is put in man is likened to that of the angels but a little less AT THIS TIME. There is a huge capacity for that spirit to become greater than that of the angels, and indeed, for those who are reborn into the new world, this will certainly be so.

Be it noted: All creations are LESS THAN their creator - a Creator cannot create something equal or greater than itself... Mankind was made a little lower than the angels.

 

[cataway]

Well, I’m not using the definition that means the actual breath that is air going into the lungs or expelled as waste gas…!

well i am because thats what the scriptures are addressing

 

[Soapy]

well i am because thats what the scriptures are addressing

Really? You mean that you are referring to the fact that animals breathe and that humans breathe and that breathing is the same. That’s what you think the scriptures verse means as the wisdom of Solomon?

Ooooh!!! I just read on your profile that you use sarcasm as part of your communication. I trust this just such an occasion and you really don’t think your response was a true reflection of your idea of truth in scriptures!!

 

[cataway]

fact that animals breathe and that humans breathe and that breathing is the same.

yes