Gods unconditional election

[Katzpur]

He knows those he has elected.

I'm afraid I just don't see this the same way you do, Heneni. I believe God knew each and every one of us prior to our births. Likewise, we knew Him. This isn't talking about some being pre-destined to be saved and other pre-destined to be condemned. God doesn't arbitrarily pick some people to be saved, regardless of how they live their lives. That is just the opposite of what I believe. He does choose some to fill certain roles here on earth. Abraham was one of these chosen. But Abraham wasn't a puppet in God's hands. He wasn't a perfect person, either, but God knew Him well enough before He was born set him apart for a great cause. Abraham was the kind of person God knew He could count on to respond to that calling, but it was his choice. It definitely wasn't pre-destination, but foreordination. There's a big difference between the two. One is false doctrine and the other true doctrine.

 

[Christless Christianity]

　
Would you agree just as he has done from the beginning, he continues to do, to all that obey his words?

Who has ever obeyed His words to the requirement of God?

 

[Christless Christianity]

I'm afraid I just don't see this the same way you do, Heneni. I believe God knew each and every one of us prior to our births. Likewise, we knew Him. This isn't talking about some being pre-destined to be saved and other pre-destined to be condemned. God doesn't arbitrarily pick some people to be saved, regardless of how they live their lives. That is just the opposite of what I believe. He does choose some to fill certain roles here on earth. Abraham was one of these chosen. But Abraham wasn't a puppet in God's hands. He wasn't a perfect person, either, but God knew Him well enough before He was born set him apart for a great cause. Abraham was the kind of person God knew He could count on to respond to that calling, but it was his choice. It definitely wasn't pre-destination, but foreordination. There's a big difference between the two. One is false doctrine and the other true doctrine.

The Bible divides humanity into two families: children of the darkness and children of the light. All humanity after the fall are born into the family of darkness and are called children of disobedience, children of wrath, children of darkness, and children of the devil. God predestined some children of darkness to become children of the light by adopting them into the kingdom of light through the person and work of Jesus Christ. The Bible describes the children of light as His vessels of mercy. On the other hand, the children of the darkness are called vessels of His wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5

The Day of the Lord

Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers,you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all childrenof light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

Ephesians 2

And you were dead in the trespasses and sinsin which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Ukonkivi]

Predestination and even just determinism is pretty incompatible with Christianity, given the concept of salvation and "God's love". In other words, the concept of grace not only implicitly denies a strong concept of fate, but also to some degree implies indeterminism with it's concept of sin and choice.

I would say the largest cause of indeterministic thought in Western culture, is Judeo-Christianity.
Predestination believers are a paradoxical minority within the Christian faith and the idea of a good, determinist, fate driving Abrahamic God is filled with all sorts of contradictions.
The Christian God more than anything teaches the idea of faith, and choice, not of fate.

 

[Christless Christianity]

Predestination and even just determinism is pretty incompatible with Christianity, given the concept of salvation and "God's love". In other words, the concept of grace not only implicitly denies a strong concept of fate, but also to some degree implies determinism with it's concept of sin and choice.

I would say the largest cause of indeterministic thought in Western culture, is Judeo-Christianity.
Predestination believers are a paradoxical minority within the Christian faith and the idea of a good, determinist, fate driving Abrahamic God is filled with all sorts of contradictions.
The Christian God more than anything teaches the idea of faith, and choice, not of fate.

For Christians who have considered all of Scripture, there is only one Biblical conclusion of predestination to the praise of His glorious sovereign grace. You have to understand the definition of biblical grace to see it.

 

[gwk230]

Who has ever obeyed His words to the requirement of God?

This is my understanding.......

Only Elohim can answer this. He will show mercy on whom he shall choose. He is the judge not you or I. Though obeying him is what he requires. He does take everything into account. I wonder how many that believe in Elohim would think that even though Moshe struck the rock, and not simply speak to it, thus being the cause that he was unable to go into the promise land, that Elohim will count this as sin enough to throw him into the lake of fire or will the punishment of not being allowed to enter into the promise land be enough to satisfy Elohim? We all sin. We have all fell short. We may all continue to sin. But one thing is sure as it is written. If we by nature do those things........

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

but .........

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

then we have...........

Exo 33:19 He said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of YAH before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."

It is, however, by his grace that we continue to have the breath of life to have the grace of time to try and get it right enough before our time comes.

 

[Christless Christianity]

This is my understanding.......

Only Elohim can answer this. He will show mercy on whom he shall choose. He is the judge not you or I. Though obeying him is what he requires. He does take everything into account. I wonder how many that believe in Elohim would think that even though Moshe struck the rock, and not simply speak to it, thus being the cause that he was unable to go into the promise land, that Elohim will count this as sin enough to throw him into the lake of fire or will the punishment of not being allowed to enter into the promise land be enough to satisfy Elohim? We all sin. We have all fell short. We may all continue to sin. But one thing is sure as it is written. If we by nature do those things........

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

but .........

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

then we have...........

Exo 33:19 He said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of YAH before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."

It is, however, by his grace that we continue to have the breath of life to have the grace of time to try and get it right enough before our time comes.

Interesting mix of Scripture. So what is your definiton of mercy and grace. What is your definiton of law? Are you trying to formulate your own righteousness before God by your obdedience to His law?

 

[Dunemeister]

The debate here is to understand how "election" is used in scripture. The Reformed tradition has it that "election" means that God more or less arbitrarily (or for inscrutable purposes of his own) which individuals are part of the covenant people of God and therefore "saved" (whatever that means). Other traditions (i.e., almost everyone else) holds that the covenant community is elected but the individuals are not. That is, God has ordained that there be a community of people who follow him, and the specific membership is determined, not by God, but by people's response to God's instigation. That is, God has ordained a means and an end for a community; the question is open who belongs or will belong to that community. At least, on this idea, it's not God's decision about individuals that makes the determination but individuals' response to God's gracious revelation.

 

[Christless Christianity]

The debate here is to understand how "election" is used in scripture. The Reformed tradition has it that "election" means that God more or less arbitrarily (or for inscrutable purposes of his own) which individuals are part of the covenant people of God and therefore "saved" (whatever that means). Other traditions (i.e., almost everyone else) holds that the covenant community is elected but the individuals are not. That is, God has ordained that there be a community of people who follow him, and the specific membership is determined, not by God, but by people's response to God's instigation. That is, God has ordained a means and an end for a community; the question is open who belongs or will belong to that community. At least, on this idea, it's not God's decision about individuals that makes the determination but individuals' response to God's gracious revelation.

I have to respectfully disagree with that. Even Roman Catholicism can have a very Augustinian twist to predestination. According to official Roman Catholicism, only the elect will receive persevering grace to the end. Historical Protestantism has a Reformed view of predestination… which will include your major Protestant denominations with maybe the exception of Wesleyan-Methodist. Even Anglicans and Episcopalians as defined by their Articles of Faith have the same predestination conclusion as the Reformed Churches. Martin Luther taught predestination too.

 

[Dunemeister]

I have to respectfully disagree with that. Even Roman Catholicism can have a very Augustinian twist to predestination. According to official Roman Catholicism, only the elect will receive persevering grace to the end.

The perseverence of the saints is a reformed idea, not catholic. Catholics hold that humans cooperate in their salvation; thus election is cooperative between humans and God.

Historical Protestantism has a Reformed view of predestination… which will include your major Protestant denominations with maybe the exception of Wesleyan-Methodist. Even Anglicans and Episcopalians as defined by their Articles of Faith have the same predestination conclusion as the Reformed Churches. Martin Luther taught predestination too.

The problem with this is that there is no one "reformed" view of predestination. Luther differed from Calvin from Zwingli from Cranmer and so on. The other problem with this is that EVERY Christian denomination teaches something called "predestination." The question is the basis of predestination. Reform-ish formulations say it's based on God's eternal decree; (most) others hold that it involves God's foreknowledge of a person's decision -- hence my distinction that what God elects is a community according to a process. That there will be such a community is God's decision; that we belong to it is ours. (At least, that's the -- or at least a -- contrary formulation.)

 

[Christless Christianity]

[/font][/color]

The perseverence of the saints is a reformed idea, not catholic. Catholics hold that humans cooperate in their salvation; thus election is cooperative between humans and God.



The problem with this is that there is no one "reformed" view of predestination. Luther differed from Calvin from Zwingli from Cranmer and so on. The other problem with this is that EVERY Christian denomination teaches something called "predestination." The question is the basis of predestination. Reform-ish formulations say it's based on God's eternal decree; (most) others hold that it involves God's foreknowledge of a person's decision -- hence my distinction that what God elects is a community according to a process. That there will be such a community is God's decision; that we belong to it is ours. (At least, that's the -- or at least a -- contrary formulation.)

Don't be so sure about the official Roman Catholic position on predestination. Roman Catholicism is a synergestic view, however if you look at it much closer, it allows for a very Augustian view of predestination withn Orthodox Catholicism. Actually, they have a very open and broad view on the topic. What I mean by historical Protestant denominations, I am talking about actual historic confessions of the various Protestant denominations. I encourage you to site the various historic Protestant confessionals on predestination and you will find a Reformed view of Predestination in the historical confessional books, including Anglicans and Southern Baptist too. All historic Christianity leads to a sovereign gracious God.

 

[Darkness]

I have to ask what makes God so kind?

 

[Katzpur]

The Bible divides humanity into two families: children of the darkness and children of the light. All humanity after the fall are born into the family of darkness and are called children of disobedience, children of wrath, children of darkness, and children of the devil.

I don't believe that, and I don't believe any of us were born children of the devil. We were born pure and clean, as the spirit offspring of a Father in Heaven who loves us. We become sinful as we sin, not through the sin of someone else.

God predestined some children of darkness to become children of the light by adopting them into the kingdom of light through the person and work of Jesus Christ. The Bible describes the children of light as His vessels of mercy. On the other hand, the children of the darkness are called vessels of His wrath.

I don't believe in predestination. I believe in free agency.

 

[Christless Christianity]

I have to ask what makes God so kind?

God's kindness is demonstrated by sending His only Son to suffer and die on behalf of His enemies.

 

[Christless Christianity]

I don't believe that, and I don't believe any of us were born children of the devil. We were born pure and clean, as the spirit offspring of a Father in Heaven who loves us. We become sinful as we sin, not through the sin of someone else.

I don't believe in predestination. I believe in free agency.

Thanks for your response. As I mentioned before, our position or understanding on the topic depends on our source of truth or source of revelation.

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks for your response. As I mentioned before, our position or understanding on the topic depends on our source of truth or source of revelation.

Agreed. So, I have a couple of questions for you, since your position differs so radically from mine.

1. Do you believe that a baby who dies will be condemned to an eternity in Hell for something completely outside of his control? If you do, how can you say God is just? If you don't, how would you explain why God would save a child of the devil?

2. Do you believe we have a choice as to whether to follow Jesus Christ, or is our choice essentially determined for? If we say we have chosen to follow Christ, is that what really happened or did we simply respond to what God chose for us?

 

[Christless Christianity]

Agreed. So, I have a couple of questions for you, since your position differs so radically from mine.

1. Do you believe that a baby who dies will be condemned to an eternity in Hell for something completely outside of his control? If you do, how can you say God is just? If you don't, how would you explain why God would save a child of the devil?

2. Do you believe we have a choice as to whether to follow Jesus Christ, or is our choice essentially determined for? If we say we have chosen to follow Christ, is that what really happened or did we simply respond to what God chose for us?

1. These are great questions and valid points. I think all Christians who look to Scriptures as their final source of truth would have to say infants who die are a mystery since not enough written revelation is found in the Bible on the topic. The Bible is clear calling infants from a nonbelieving household to be unholy and unclean. There is a clear distinction made in Scripture between children from a household of faith as compared to a child from a nonbeleiving household. Didn't God command Israel to kill men, women, and children? I believe all infants are born children of the devil, some are born into a household of faith who are placed in a covenant community with a special setting apart (sanctified for God). I believe all elect infants who die are washed by the blood of Christ and will defintely be in Heaven. It is very possible that there are elect infants who die that are from unbelieving households too, and will be in Heaven.

2. I believe the Spirit blows like the wind, who knows what direction it is going (John 3)? It is the same with the new birth which the sinner is passive. When a sinner is born from above (regeneration) which is a monergistic sovereign gracious act of God, the sinner is given a new heart, or new spiritual eyes to see who Christ really is; therefore, with his new heart and spiritual sight, the sinner freely chooses Christ . Apart from the new birth, no sinner has the inclination or desire to choose Christ, rather they run from the light of Christ.

What are your answers to your two excellent questions.

 

[Katzpur]

1. These are great questions and valid points. I think all Christians who look to Scriptures as their final source of truth would have to say infants who die are a mystery since not enough written revelation is found in the Bible on the topic. The Bible is clear calling infants from a nonbelieving household to be unholy and unclean. There is a clear distinction made in Scripture between children from a household of faith as compared to a child from a nonbeleiving household. Didn't God command Israel to kill men, women, and children? I believe all infants are born children of the devil, some are born into a household of faith who are placed in a covenant community with a special setting apart (sanctified for God). I believe all elect infants who die are washed by the blood of Christ and will defintely be in Heaven. It is very possible that there are elect infants who die that are from unbelieving households too, and will be in Heaven.

2. I believe the Spirit blows like the wind, who knows what direction it is going (John 3)? It is the same with the new birth which the sinner is passive. When a sinner is born from above (regeneration) which is a monergistic sovereign gracious act of God, the sinner is given a new heart, or new spiritual eyes to see who Christ really is; therefore, with his new heart and spiritual sight, the sinner freely chooses Christ . Apart from the new birth, no sinner has the inclination or desire to choose Christ, rather they run from the light of Christ.

What are your answers to your two excellent questions.

My answers to the questions I posed to you and my comments on your answers are as follows:

I believe that each of us will be held accountable for own our own sins and not for Adam's transgression. If Jesus Christ's sacrifice paid the price for my sins and yours, it also paid the price for Adam's. Therefore, Adam's guilt was not passed on to us. While we inherited our mortal nature from Adam and therefore have a propensity to be enticed by Satan, we did not inherit the guilt Adam assumed when He chose to disobey God. We become sinners when we choose to give in to our carnal nature and succumb to Satan's temptations. Because sin is the voluntary transgression of a religious law or moral principle, it follows that someone who is too young to comprehend the difference between good and evil is incapable of actually sinning.

I believe that little children are free from sin. My belief is based at least in part upon Matthew 18:3, in which Jesus says, "...Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as littlechildren, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Other scriptures in the gospel accounts of His ministry express a similar sentiment. I can't imagine why Jesus encourage us to become as little children if little children are born of the devil. He said that we must become like them if we are to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I'm afraid I don't understand how a person can assume a passive role with respect to his new birth and at the same time freely choose Christ. To me, those seem like contradictory statements. I believe that God encourages all of us to seek Him. I also believe that He promises those who do seek Him that they will find Him. I cannot imagine a loving Father (and I definitely do believe that He is the father of my spirit and that I was born His spirit daughter) would turn away anyone who is sincere in heart and is looking for the path back to Him. I believe that He loves every man and woman who has ever lived and will do everything within His power -- save it be force or coersion -- to see us all return to His presence.

Thank you, CC, for your answers. I look forward to further respectful dialogue with you.

 

[Christless Christianity]

My answers to the questions I posed to you and my comments on your answers are as follows:

I believe that each of us will be held accountable for own our own sins and not for Adam's transgression. If Jesus Christ's sacrifice paid the price for my sins and yours, it also paid the price for Adam's. Therefore, Adam's guilt was not passed on to us. While we inherited our mortal nature from Adam and therefore have a propensity to be enticed by Satan, we did not inherit the guilt Adam assumed when He chose to disobey God. We become sinners when we choose to give in to our carnal nature and succumb to Satan's temptations. Because sin is the voluntary transgression of a religious law or moral principle, it follows that someone who is too young to comprehend the difference between good and evil is incapable of actually sinning.

I believe that little children are free from sin. My belief is based at least in part upon Matthew 18:3, in which Jesus says, "...Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as littlechildren, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Other scriptures in the gospel accounts of His ministry express a similar sentiment. I can't imagine why Jesus encourage us to become as little children if little children are born of the devil. He said that we must become like them if we are to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I'm afraid I don't understand how a person can assume a passive role with respect to his new birth and at the same time freely choose Christ. To me, those seem like contradictory statements. I believe that God encourages all of us to seek Him. I also believe that He promises those who do seek Him that they will find Him. I cannot imagine a loving Father (and I definitely do believe that He is the father of my spirit and that I was born His spirit daughter) would turn away anyone who is sincere in heart and is looking for the path back to Him. I believe that He loves every man and woman who has ever lived and will do everything within His power -- save it be force or coersion -- to see us all return to His presence.

Thank you, CC, for your answers. I look forward to further respectful dialogue with you.

I'm just about off the site for the day. I read you thoughtful and reasonable response rather fast. Actually, it's quite good and could have been written by a Free will Evangelical with a similar reasoning. I mean that as a compliment as compared to an insult since I am an Evangelical myself...I'm just not your typical Free Will Evangelical in doctrine. I also don't mean to disrespect your LDS Faith with my comment too. Infants who die, free will, predestination, election, and moral accountabilty are very difficult and good topics to discuss.

 

[gwk230]

So what is your definiton of mercy and grace.

　
I understand “Mercy” to be that as a pardon. To shew mercy on one as to save their life rather than to destroy it. Giving lenient or compassionate treatment.
　
I understand “Grace” to be approval, favor or privilege. One might approve of another and therefore find favor or grace in ones eyes or yet they may ask for a certain privilege or grace as in the grace of time we all have.
　
My understandings come from the scriptural use of said words in their various contexts.
　

What is your definiton of law?

　
I understand the word “Law” to represent “Torah” and the many parts thereof. The word “Torah” simply meaning “Instruction”. That being said, I further understand that the word “Law” has somewhat a three-way meaning and I subscribe to all three but in their respective contextual usages. One may say the law to mean the whole of the law or then again they may mean one group of laws within the whole of the law and yet again they may mean just one particular law within the same said whole. It does all have a lot to do with what context it is being used. A great example is in the berit hadashah where just the word “Law” is used but only the group of laws pertaining to sacrifice is meant. Yet another is where the singular word “Law” is used but yet the law pertaining to circumcision is meant. etc. etc. etc.
　

Are you trying to formulate your own righteousness before God by your obdedience to His law?

　
Formulate? By no means. I am simply attempting to obey my father, as he asked, to the best of my ability and understanding by following his precepts, ordinances, statutes and commandments within the whole of what is called the Torah while using the writings of his prophets and the teachings of my big brother and king Yahshua Ha Moshiach Ben Daweed. This is my faith which by my works is shown. Whether it is considered righteousness or not is completely up to Elohim.