Gospels and Shiite hadiths match up.

[Muffled]

Sorry to be the one to infirm you but…. You aren’t even good at focussing on this ONE thing: Almighty God… one thing… not three!!!

I believe I am aware that you don't comprehend the Trinity. I have explained it twenty ways to Sunday and you still don't get it.

 

[Link]

I believe it makes sense that fictional writing could reflect some things in the Bible.

It's an interpretation of the Gospels I think. They parallel a lot.

 

[Muffled]

This is sort of dialogue (I am guided, I have holy spirit, you don't) doesn't bring anything to the table.

I believe you will find that God doesn't compromise.

 

[Link]

I believe you will find that God doesn't compromise.

You deceive yourself and get nothing out of this type of talk really.

 

[Muffled]

In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
Source: 17 Bible verses about Asking In Jesus Name

اَللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ وَأَتَوَجَّهُ إِلَيْكَ
allahumma inni as'aluka wa atawajjahu ilayka
O Allah, I beseech You and turn my face toward You

بِنَبِيِّكَ نَبِيِّ ٱلرَّحْمَةِ
binabiyyika nabiyyi alrrahmati
in the name of Your Prophet; the Prophet of Mercy,

مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّىٰ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ
muhammadin salla allahu `alayhi wa alihi
Muhammad—may Allah send blessings to him and his Household.

يَا أَبَا ٱلْقَاسِمِ
ya aba alqasimi
O Abu’l-Qasim!

يَا رَسُولَ ٱللَّهِ
ya rasula allahi
O Allah’s Messenger!

يَا إِمَامَ ٱلرَّحْمَةِ
ya imama alrrahmati
O Chief of Mercy!

يَا سَيِّدَنَا وَمَوْلاَنَا
ya sayyidana wa mawlana
O our master and chief!

إِنَّا تَوَجَّهْنَا وَٱسْتَشْفَعْنَا
inna tawajjahana wastashfa`na
We are turning our faces toward you, seeking your intercession

وَتَوَسَّلْنَا بِكَ إِلَىٰ ٱللَّهِ
wa tawassalna bika ila allahi
and your advocacy for us before Allah;

وَقَدَّمْنَاكَ بَيْنَ يَدَيْ حَاجَاتِنَا
wa qaddamnaka bayna yaday hajatina
and we are presenting you [as our intermediary] for the settlement of our needs.

يَا وَجِيهاً عِنْدَ ٱللَّهِ
ya wajihan `inda allahi
O well-esteemed with Allah,

إِشْفَعْ لَنَا عِنْدَ ٱللَّهِ
ishfa` lana `inda allahi
intercede for us before Allah.

Source: Dua Tawassul- Duas.org

So is this guy claiming to be a messenger after Mohammed said there wouldn't be any more?

 

[Link]

So is this guy claiming to be a messenger after Mohammed said there wouldn't be any more?

There is three hadiths in total I've read that say no more Messengers after Mohammad (s). The majority say "Nabi", and the Quran could've said "khatamal Mursaleen" "the finality/seal of the sent ones", but said "Nabiyeen". The former would mean no Imams sent for example.

I've also seen a ziyarat of Imam Ali (a) address Imam Ali (a) as "the messenger of God" as well.

Channeling scripture and being a Messenger is two different things. Musa (a) and Haroun (a) were two Messengers to Pharaoh without scripture and only after children of Israel were saved and delivered, did they receive scripture.

Nabi means receiving, and particularly about being the channel of God's newest newspaper to mankind and to channel a book/writing/scripture from God to people.

To be fair, translations and commentaries often don't distinguish between Mursaleen, Nabiyeen, and Rusul, so I get where the confusion comes from.

Mursaleen is more general and inclusive of anyone sent by God for any mission including Imams even if they were not Messengers.

Messenger means the message of God needs to be delivered clearly to the people and that is person set for it. This doesn't mean just scripture is the message.

A Nabi is one who channels God's scripture.

Since the mission of leadership, message, and Nubuwa, are all linked, it happened to be most leaders appointed by God were both Nabis and Rusol. But they can be neither.

As well, Nabi can be non-Rasool if the message is not what he is conveying, but laying on top of it subtle points. I believe Dul-Kifl who revealed who Gog and Magog were - was such.

A Rasool that is non-Nabi, means God out of his wisdom, knows it's best not to provide a scripture to hold on to through that person.

An Imam that is neither a Rasool nor a Nabi, means he is leading the people, but the messages of God are accepted and known and there is nothing to convey in that regard, but he is to lead and rule the people by God's permission and show them miracles and continue to guide them.

 

[Link]

Oof, I've went off-topic. I hate when others do that, but did it myself. I will make a new thread.

 

[Soapy]

I believe I am aware that you don't comprehend the Trinity. I have explained it twenty ways to Sunday and you still don't get it.

You mean like ‘God is his own messenger’?

That God is his own Son…

That the Son is God

And ‘God’ means being:​

‘The Father and the spirit of the Father, and also the Son’​

And so the Son is in God as well as in the Father and the Son IS GOD… AND THE FATHER AND THE SPIRIT OF YHE FATHER… AS WELL AS HIMSELF​

AND The Father is GOD so he is therefore ALSO THE SON and THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER…​

But the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of the Father who is the Son and the Father and God at the same time….​

​

Hmmm… Have you heard of RECURSION????
Recursion is a situation in which a function is define by itself…. Exactly what is here meant by:

• ‘The Son is God’
• ‘The Father is God’
• ‘The Spirit of God is God’

Therefore THE SON IS GOD, means being:

• ‘Father, SON, and Spirit of the Father’

Therefore, the Son IS ‘Father, Son, and Spirit of God’…

And that recursive scenario applies to the Father and the Spirit of the a Father equally….

A never ending definition of itself…

Try it yourself….!!!

Try defining ‘GOD’ in terms of ‘Father, Son, and (what you call) Holy Spirit).

1. Then DEFINE what you mean by “The Son is ‘GOD’”
2. Then DEFINE what you mean by “The Father is ‘GOD’”
3. Then DEFINE what you mean by “The Holy Spirit is ‘GOD’”

Please do not SKIP this test.

IF YOU DO SKIP THEN IT CONFIRMS THAT YOU KNOW THAT YOUR IDEOLOGY IS FALSE…!!

 

[Link]

You mean like ‘God is his own messenger’?

That God is his own Son…

That the Son is God

And ‘God’ means being:​

‘The Father and the spirit of the Father, and also the Son’​

And so the Son is in God as well as in the Father and the Son IS GOD… AND THE FATHER AND THE SPIRIT OF YHE FATHER… AS WELL AS HIMSELF​

AND The Father is GOD so he is therefore ALSO THE SON and THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER…​

But the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of the Father who is the Son and the Father and God at the same time….​

​

Hmmm… Have you heard of RECURSION????
Recursion is a situation in which a function is define by itself…. Exactly what is here meant by:

• ‘The Son is God’
• ‘The Father is God’
• ‘The Spirit of God is God’

Therefore THE SON IS GOD, means being:

• ‘Father, SON, and Spirit of the Father’

Therefore, the Son IS ‘Father, Son, and Spirit of God’…

And that recursive scenario applies to the Father and the Spirit of the a Father equally….

A never ending definition of itself…

Try it yourself….!!!

Try defining ‘GOD’ in terms of ‘Father, Son, and (what you call) Holy Spirit).

1. Then DEFINE what you mean by “The Son is ‘GOD’”
2. Then DEFINE what you mean by “The Father is ‘GOD’”
3. Then DEFINE what you mean by “The Holy Spirit is ‘GOD’”

Please do not SKIP this test.

IF YOU DO SKIP THEN IT CONFIRMS THAT YOU KNOW THAT YOUR IDEOLOGY IS FALSE…!!

LOL never thought of using recursion to show absurdity of trinity. This is good stuff.

 

[Soapy]

LOL never thought of using recursion to show absurdity of trinity. This is good stuff.

The problem is that the likes of Trinitarians will claim that they don’t understand what I’m showing them…

But they DO SEE… they will just ignore it… like they have done the many many times I’ve presented this case over the years.

However, presenting the truth doesn’t mean that people will believe it - Jesus showed that by bring to humanity the testament of God, the Father… but the mass of the Jews refused to believe him:

• ‘And if they do not believe me, surely, they will refuse to believe you, too’… ‘but of those who do believe, a glorious place is reserved for them in the kingdom of the Father’ (paraphrased)
• ‘Eternal life depends on believing in you, [Father / YHWH], THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and in Jesus Christ WHOM YOU SENT’

 

[Link]

The problem is that the likes of Trinitarians will claim that they don’t understand what I’m showing them…

But they DO SEE… they will just ignore it… like they have done the many many times I’ve presented this case over the years.

However, presenting the truth doesn’t mean that people will believe it - Jesus showed that by bring to humanity the testament of God, the Father… but the mass of the Jews refused to believe him:

• ‘And if they do not believe me, surely, they will refuse to believe you, too’… ‘but of those who do believe, a glorious place is reserved for them in the kingdom of the Father’ (paraphrased)
• ‘Eternal life depends on believing in you, [Father / YHWH], THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and in Jesus Christ WHOM YOU SENT’

You know I think Sunni-Shia and Muslim-Christian debate is not that useful. The reason we all agree upon verses that say whoever fears God will attain salvation and that goodness eventually leads to the truth of God's path (whoever that is).

I know a fearful person in God will understand Mohammad's (s) words at Ghadir regarding Ali (a) very clearly.

So you are better of preaching the importance of fear of God and realizing this, I understand why most of the sermons of Imam Ali (a) were not about proving through Quran the position of Ahlulbayt (a) but fearing God and philosophy of that benefit. He talked their position but not in argumentative way.

 

[Soapy]

You know I think Sunni-Shia and Muslim-Christian debate is not that useful. The reason we all agree upon verses that say whoever fears God will attain salvation and that goodness eventually leads to the truth of God's path (whoever that is).

I know a fearful person in God will understand Mohammad's (s) words at Ghadir regarding Ali (a) very clearly.

So you are better of preaching the importance of fear of God and realizing this, I understand why most of the sermons of Imam Ali (a) were not about proving through Quran the position of Ahlulbayt (a) but fearing God and philosophy of that benefit. He talked their position but not in argumentative way.

Sorry, I know little to nothing about Islam that I could bring to the table regarding any links to Christianity.

 

[Link]

Sorry, I know little to nothing about Islam that I could bring to the table regarding any links to Christianity.

I think a summary of Jesus (a) words is "be true and you will recognize me as the path towards God". I'm saying instead of focusing on "he is the path to God" part, focus on the "be true" part.

Whoever is the path to God today, just needs us to fear God, turn to God often and be true to God and ourselves.

 

[Link]

Ahlulbayt (a) have reported to have said:
"We have states where we are him and he is us and we are we and he is he"

Gospels:

"In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and God was the word."

 

[FredVB]

Ahlulbayt (a) have reported to have said:
"We have states where we are him and he is us and we are we and he is he"

Gospels:

"In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and God was the word."

Is this saying these statements are alike in some way? I don't see it. The passage in John at its start in context relate to one who is unique, and I don't see the other is relating to it at all. And, God is not one who is not God. God is always God, the meaning of it being the Supreme Being. One who is not God is never God.

 

[Link]

Is this saying these statements are alike in some way? I don't see it.

Yes they are similar. And so is the following:

يَعْرِفُكَ بِهَا مَنْ عَرَفَكَ
fi kulli makanin ya`rifuka biha man `arafaka
Through them, You are known to those who know You.

لا فَرْقَ بَيْنَكَ وَبَيْنَهَا إِلاَّ أَنَّهُمْ عِبَادُكَ وَخَلْقُكَ
la farqa baynaka wa baynaha illa annahum `ibaduka wa khalquka
-there being no difference between You and them except that they are Your servants and creation.

فَتْقُهَا وَرَتْقُهَا بِيَدِكَ
fatquha wa ratquha biyadika
their unstitching and mending is in Your hand

بَدْؤُهَا مِنْكَ وَعَوْدُهَا إلَيْكَ
bad'uha minka wa `awduha ilayka
they enamate from You and return to You.

أَعْضَادٌ وَأَشْهَادٌ
a`dadun wa ashhadun
They are the instruments, witnesses,

وَمُنَاةٌ وَأَذْوَادٌ
wa munatun wa adhwadun
planners, defenders

وَحَفَظَةٌ وَرُوَّادٌ
wa hafazatun wa ruwwadun
guards and scouts

فَبِهِمْ مَلَأْتَ سَمَاءَكَ وَأَرْضَكَ
fabihim mala'ta sama'aka wa ardaka
by whose means You have filled Your heavens and earth

حَتَّىٰ ظَهَرَ أَنْ لاَ إِلٰهَ إِلاَّ أَنْتَ
hatta zahara an la ilaha illa anta
until it became manifest that there is no god save You.

 

[Link]

And, God is not one who is not God. God is always God, the meaning of it being the Supreme Being. One who is not God is never God.

This is true, but from another perspective, God is the light of all light, and his chosen lights represent him in a way that line between the signs of God and His essence become blurred, this is expressed in the Quran "so he was two bows or closer still". Two bows if you put them together, they make a circle, of course, there is a difference between Mohammad (S) and God, a huge one on that, God is not to be compared to anyone, yet, from signs of God and light of God, there is a unity.

The question is what angle was God and Jesus (a) speaking from in the Gospels? Given all the emphasis on unity of God through scriptures before him and in the Gospels, it follows, he was saying it from a similar angle as the Imams (a) expressed their unity with God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This thread, I will be matching phrases from the Gospels with Shiite hadiths, in the sense Imams (a) say about themselves same thing Jesus (a) is quoted in the Gospels to emphasize on himself.

I will try to match up the phrases with hadiths and provide an explanation of what is meant from Shiite point of view, which differs from some or majority of Christians point of view.

As a clarification of why debate, we can debate which one is more rational.

I'm not sure why you would find it a valuable use of your time to try to match up the gospels with the hadith. Everyone knows that Muslims think the gospels have been tampered with and are unreliable. For example, all four gospels recount Jesus' death, yet Islam teaches Jesus never died.

 

[Link]

I'm not sure why you would find it a valuable use of your time to try to match up the gospels with the hadith. Everyone knows that Muslims think the gospels have been tampered with and are unreliable. For example, all four gospels recount Jesus' death, yet Islam teaches Jesus never died.

Because most of it is good.

 

[Link]

@IndigoChild5559 maybe to put in perspective, I See hadiths of the family of Mohammad (s) as a beautiful and necessary source of guidance. However, a lot it is corrupted in that the hadiths we attribute to them is mixed with falsehood.

The Quran is a commentary on the Torah to Gospel and books between among many things it is.

We can't just throw away what it comments on, it won't make sense if we do. It corrects a lot, for example, the story of Talut (a) is very different then what is said about Saul in the Bible (the first Saul, not Paul).

Hadiths are not all true, yet we can't throw them out or Quran won't make sense since it tells us to seek knowledge from the family of the reminder (a) (as well as other signs like miracles).