If a person claiming to be Christ comes today, how do you know it is really *not* him?

[danieldemol]

So what if it did?
Do you know what else He had on His plate during that year?

Irrelevant in my view as he should have foreknown that he would have a lot on his plate as the All-Knowing Manifestation of God and written the book correctly the first time. That he didn't is overwhelming evidence that he was *not* All-Knowing in my view.

 

[Niatero]

Due to your own requested privacy we can not say whether or not your view counts as a "Baha'i view" in my opinion.

Yes. In fact, regardless of whether I'm a member or not, you can say that my view does not count as a Baha'i view. Please, don't anyone think that I'm a Baha'i. I don't want to be associated in any way at all with online Baha'i preaching. (edited to add the following) In fact, maybe it's a mistake for me to post in these discussions at all. It's tempting because of my personal experience with it and some passionate views about it, but actually for my purposes those are reasons for staying out of it. I'm hoping now that I'll be able to stop. (end edit)

So far the only confirmed Baha'i that doesn't respect Momen it seems is @Dawnofhope which is 1 out of a community of at least a million people. I can tell you when I was a Baha'i I respected Momen. I can also tell you his books are sold at Baha'i stores.

In fact check out the Wilmette's institute's introduction of Moojen Momen starting at 2:40. He is described as the "Dean of Baha'i Studies", "Most prolific authors of the Baha'i faith" "His brain is amazing" etc. The fact that the Wilmette institute is running his course is a testimony to how well he is regarded in the Baha'i community in my view ...

That's exactly what I'm saying. The popularity in the Baha'i Faith of a person who stoops so low sometimes in his writings could be considered as a mark against it.

 

[danieldemol]

Glad to hear it.

*Staff Edit*

Children can be assisted to make discoveries by pointing out errors in their thinking that had not occurred to them in my view.

I'm not doing that, if people want to call out to God through Baha'u'llah or dancing naked with a chicken claw hung from their neck around a camp-fire or whatever harmless thing good luck to them in my view.

Ok

Yeah Rumi is contradicting himself in that meme, he is laying a rule that the hearts have to be sincere to be heard (does God have a hearing problem?) whilst at the same time saying there are no rules.

I'll admit I sometimes doubt if God exists but if an omnipotent God exists I feel certain that it is well capable of hearing all prayers, the reason it does not intervene in any of them is because it does not want to in my view, sincerity has nothing to do with it.

As per the staff edit I've had to reword my response;
Donald Trump would take great pleasure in believing in a stolen election in my view, so clearly taking comfort in a belief is *not* evidence that that belief is not bogus as there are many bogus beliefs that people take comfort in.

 

[Trailblazer]

Irrelevant in my view as he should have foreknown that he would have a lot on his plate as the All-Knowing Manifestation of God

A Manifestation of God does not have prefect foreknowledge, only God has perfect foreknowledge, but even if He knew, He still had to do what He had to do.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What made it look like it had Iranian government sponsorship?

Probably because it was published in Iran and we know next to nothing about the authors.

 

[danieldemol]

A Manifestation of God does not have prefect foreknowledge, only God has perfect foreknowledge, but even if He knew, He still had to do what He had to do.

Ah yes I forget the heterodox views of fringe belief that are today present in the Baha'i faith.

Baha'u'llah himself made the claim to be all-Knowing in my view;
"Rejoice not in the things ye possess; tonight they are yours, tomorrow others will possess them. Thus warneth you He Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed."
Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 137-139

God is not warning us, Baha'u'llah is, there are other examples in my view.

But I suppose all of that is moot since if Baha'u'llah was not all-knowing then by logical extension his knowledge was not infallible and thus he was not infallible in my view.

 

[Niatero]

I've decided to unwatch all the debates with people preaching Baha'i beliefs, and I hope I can resist the temptation after this.

 

[Trailblazer]

But I suppose all of that is moot since if Baha'u'llah was not all-knowing then by logical extension his knowledge was not infallible and thus he was not infallible in my view.

Maybe Baha'u'llah was all-knowing. The following passage seems to indicate that.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

 

[danieldemol]

Probably because it was published in Iran and we know next to nothing about the authors.

Ah ok so Iran has 88.5 million people but it could only have been the government that paid for this?
Reminds me of a funny meme;

https://i.redd.it/if-there-is-any-criticism-its-because-they-obviously-were-v0-v0to774n46yb1.jpg?s=5918b62275db6bac411278742a166204b7e6df90

 

[Trailblazer]

I've decided to unwatch all the debates with people preaching Baha'i beliefs, and I hope I can resist the temptation after this.

I wish I could do that but as a Baha'i I feel a responsibility to keep watch.

 

[danieldemol]

Maybe Baha'u'llah was all-knowing. The following passage seems to indicate that.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

Yeah like I said there are other examples where he claims it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Ah ok so Iran has 88.5 million people but it could only have been the government that paid for this?
Reminds me of a funny meme;

Iran is not like your country or mine with the same freedoms unfortunately.

In Iran, censorship was ranked among the world's most extreme in 2023. Reporters Without Borders ranked Iran 177 out of 180 countries in the World Press Freedom Index,[1] which ranks countries from 1 to 180 based on the level of freedom of the press.[2] Reporters Without Borders described Iran as “one of the world’s five biggest prisons for media personnel" in the 40 years since the revolution.[1] In the Freedom House Index, Iran scored low on political rights and civil liberties and has been classified as 'not free.'[3]

Censorship in Iran - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In regards writing about religion:

The Constitution contains very general rules concerning freedom of expression. Article 24 states: "Publications and the press have freedom of expression except when it is detrimental to the fundamental principles of Islam or the rights of the public.

One problem is that Baha'is can not provide a response to this work in Iran as they do not have the same civil liberties as Muslims.

While the book itself may not have been sponsored by the Iranian government (and we have no way of knowing) the government would almost certainly be aware of such a publication and approved given their opposition to the Baha'i Faith.

 

[danieldemol]

Iran is not like your country or mine with the same freedoms unfortunately.

In Iran, censorship was ranked among the world's most extreme in 2023. Reporters Without Borders ranked Iran 177 out of 180 countries in the World Press Freedom Index,[1] which ranks countries from 1 to 180 based on the level of freedom of the press.[2] Reporters Without Borders described Iran as “one of the world’s five biggest prisons for media personnel" in the 40 years since the revolution.[1] In the Freedom House Index, Iran scored low on political rights and civil liberties and has been classified as 'not free.'[3]

Censorship in Iran - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In regards writing about religion:

The Constitution contains very general rules concerning freedom of expression. Article 24 states: "Publications and the press have freedom of expression except when it is detrimental to the fundamental principles of Islam or the rights of the public.

One problem is that Baha'is can not provide a response to this work in Iran as they do not have the same civil liberties as Muslims.

While the book itself may not have been sponsored by the Iranian government (and we have no way of knowing) the government would almost certainly be aware of such a publication and approved given their opposition to the Baha'i Faith.

All of this seems irrelevant in my view since Moojen Momen was a co-editor of Symbol and Secret: Qur'an Commentary in Baha'u'llah's Kitab-i-Iqan, which confirms the extracted point being made here so the Baha'i have had the opportunity in the western world to respond and their response was that somebodies thunder got stolen lol

 

[Dawnofhope]

All of this seems irrelevant in my view since Moojen Momen was a co-editor of Symbol and Secret: Qur'an Commentary in Baha'u'llah's Kitab-i-Iqan, which confirms the extracted point being made here so the Baha'i have had the opportunity in the western world to respond and their response was that somebodies thunder got stolen lol

If you want to discuss a comment made by Moojen Momen, then quote from his work and provide a reference in your OP. At least Moojen Momen is a recognised scholar.

If you want to create a thread to criticize Baha'u'llah's 'revision' of his work, then come up with a better title for your OP than If a person claiming to be Christ comes today, how do you know it is really *not* him?

 

[danieldemol]

If you want to discuss a comment made by Moojen Momen, then quote from his work and provide a reference in your OP. At least Moojen Momen is a recognised scholar.

It was a comment in a book co-edited by Momen on page 28, would you like to guess whether or not it was a Baha'i we are talking about given it made a claim as non-neutral as Baha'u'llah stealing the thunder of his future critique?

Here it is;
"Such disclosures of editing, particularly by Bahá’u’lláh himself, steals from Najafí’s thunder."
Source:

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/buck_symbol_secret.pdf

If you want to create a thread to criticize Baha'u'llah's 'revision' of his work, then come up with a better title for your OP than If a person claiming to be Christ comes today, how do you know it is really *not* him?

Thanks for your suggestion, but I won't be changing the title of my thread.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It was a comment in a book co-edited by Momen on page 28, would you like to guess whether or not it was a Baha'i we are talking about given it made a claim as non-neutral as Baha'u'llah stealing the thunder of his future critique?

Here it is;
"Such disclosures of editing, particularly by Bahá’u’lláh himself, steals from Najafí’s thunder."
Source:
https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/buck_symbol_secret.pdf

Thank you.

You have provided a link to a 285 page paper written by a Baha'i scholar Christopher Buck titled "Symbol and Secret: Qur'an commentary in Baha'u'llah's kitab-i-Iqan"

The paper examines thoroughly a number of issues in regards one of Baha'u'llah's earliest work including an allegation made by a Shi'i theologian and critic of the Baha'i Faith, Sayyid Najafí. The criticism in brief is that Baha'u'llah made errors in the original text of the Kitab-i-Iqan that later required correction.

Christopher Buck in reviewing the criticism, quotes a long passage from the Research Department at the Baha'i World Centre. The comment;

"Such disclosures of editing, particularly by Bahá’u’lláh himself, steals from Najafí’s thunder."

is part of that response from the Baha'i World Centre and Christopher Buck, not Moojen Momen.

Am I missing something? How is Moojen Momen relevant?

 

[CG Didymus]

The answer is obvious to me: You don't believe in the claims of Baha'u'llah. I don't think you would disagree with God if you knew what God knew.

Well, right now I disagree with the God of the Bible, the God of the Quran and the God in the Baha'i writings. Now are any of those Scriptures really telling me about what God knows and who God is? So really, I'm disagreeing with the men that wrote those things and claimed they were talking for God.

 

[danieldemol]

Thank you.

You have provided a link to a 285 page paper written by a Baha'i scholar Christopher Buck titled "Symbol and Secret: Qur'an commentary in Baha'u'llah's kitab-i-Iqan"

The paper examines thoroughly a number of issues in regards one of Baha'u'llah's earliest work including an allegation made by a Shi'i theologian and critic of the Baha'i Faith, Sayyid Najafí. The criticism in brief is that Baha'u'llah made errors in the original text of the Kitab-i-Iqan that later required correction.

Christopher Buck in reviewing the criticism, quotes a long passage from the Research Department at the Baha'i World Centre. The comment;

"Such disclosures of editing, particularly by Bahá’u’lláh himself, steals from Najafí’s thunder."

is part of that response from the Baha'i World Centre and Christopher Buck, not Moojen Momen.

Am I missing something? How is Moojen Momen relevant?

What you appear to be missing in my view is that the Bahai have
A) Had their chance to respond with anything of substance to the central issue raised in the OP
B) Given a woefully inadequate response

But to be fair, what adequate response could be given to Baha'u'llah's errors, the pointing out of those errors over a period of a year by an ordinary mortal, and the following revision other than a frank admission of the fallibility of Baha'u'llah?

 

[CG Didymus]

Ok, so it took an all-Knowing Manifestation of God a year to fix errors as suggested by a mere mortal?!

Yeah, is he getting inerrant information directly from God into his head or not? I'd prefer it if wasn't perfect, inerrant knowledge from God, but just his vision of what is true.

Then we could evaluate it and take what's useful and disregard the rest. To me that's a lot better than acting as if it is "God's word" and the infallible truth... and then having true believer's pushing to be dogmatic about believing and following every single thing he said.

So, for me, errors would be a good thing. His writings had some good, insightful stuff, and some didn't.

 

[CG Didymus]

Irrelevant in my view as he should have foreknown that he would have a lot on his plate as the All-Knowing Manifestation of God and written the book correctly the first time. That he didn't is overwhelming evidence that he was *not* All-Knowing in my view.

I've done some creative writing and some song writing. Sometimes inspiration just hits me. I don't know where it comes from, but it's not like it came from me. But after I write it out... I have to go back and do some rewrites.

So, whoever or whatever is sending messages into my brain, I wish you'd get the story or song straight before you give it to me. I hate having to edit your work.