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Israel's stunning victory over Iran

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
This "we're nice, the Palestinians are insincere, and Arafat sucks" synopsis is convenient and self serving folk history. A far better overview is dealt with in Slate's Was Arafat the Problem?.
I did read closely your article. As you know, I'm a "follow the evidence" type of gal. I'm willing to change my mind, even when it hurts, if the evidence indicates otherwise--I've done so with may issues in my lifetime. But I simply did not find the article convincing. It could be that, given time and mulling it over, I may feel different. But as it stands right now, I remain with the opinions I voiced.

I NEVER listen to pundits. As far as I'm concerned, they are so extreme and so biased that their words are completely worthless to me. Nor am I a "hardliner" or "right wing." I'm so conspicuously a moderate that I tend to irritate everyone. LOL

I never said that Barak offered Arafat everything the Palestinians said they wanted. Just the overwhelming majority. (Whatever two-state solution is offered has to be a compromise by both sides.) They even offered to allow the Palestinians to use East Jerusalem as their capital -- an unprecedented and stunning offer, and likely to never be repeated. To me, the reasons for Arafat's refusal are self obvious.

We may have to simply agree to disagree on this, which is a perfectly fine thing with me. I don't expect my friends to always agree, since after all we have separate brains. :)
 

idea

Question Everything
Israel is made up of Jews from all around the world, not just the Ashkenazim, as well as a minority of non-Jews. Indeed some Jews in Israel are descended from first century Judeans who never left the Land.

Since the destruction of the temple, and subsequent diaspora, Jews have recited every year at Passover, "Next year in Jerusalem." IOW we never gave up our claim to the land or the hope of returning. So in that regard you can say that all Jews everywhere are Zionists.

The Zionism movement proper did indeed first arise in Europe, as a response to the constant stream of harassment and killings that Jews had to put up with, and the fact that the Emancipation of the Jews in Western Europe (referring to the new movement to make Jews citizens of the countries in which we dwelt) was a complete and utter failure.

Let's talk about Herzl, who is considered the Father of Zionism, although to be honest, many other Jews contributed to the philosophy and each has their own story. Herzl (pronounced Hurts-l) was a Viennese Jew. He was highly assimilated. In fact, he seriously considered converting to Catholicism just to make his assimilation 100%. Then he had a watershed moment at the trial of Dreyfus in France.

The Dreyfus affair was an instance when a Jew was framed for a murder he did not commit. We know this because later in history, the witnesses basically confessed that they had lied. French society rallied against Dreyfus, but it didn't stop there, it rallied against all Jews. A century after Jews were emancipated in France and assimilated, Jews were still the victims of prejudice and hate.

So Herzl was standing outside the courthouse when Dreyfus was convicted, and what he heard chilled him to the bone. The crowd was not shouting "Death to Dreyfus." They were shouting "Death to the Jews."

It became suddenly crystal clear to Herzl that emancipation and assimilation was not the solution. No matter how much Jews had become fellow citizens and embraced the culture of their adopted country, we were always going to be victimized and killed. The ONLY solution to the problem of antisemitism was to have our own land, and be a self-determining autonomous people.

While at first many Jews were resistant to this secular philosophy of Zionism, the holocaust changed everything. There were very few Orthodox Jews in Germany. German Jews were among the most highly assimilated in the world, who thought of themselves as Germans. It is interesting that in Anne Frank's diary, the ONLY time she discussed Judaism with her family was when they were celebrating CHRISTMAS. And yet it was precisely because Jews were so assimilated that Hitler believed them to be a great threat. Assimilation meant intermarriage, and that would, in the eyes of the Nazis, pollute the blood of the German people. As a result, six million were systematically killed.

Zionism is, simply, the secular political philosophy that Jews deserve self determination in order to survive in an antisemitic world. And really, every group has this right, not just Jews. It is a HUMAN right.


1917 is when return started,

A British history, Balfour a Christian. European Christians support Israel because it ties into their Armageddon narratives. Without Christians, Israel as it is today would not exist.

There are many groups of people who do not have their own country.

Palestinians do not have their own country....

I support melting pots, by the people, for all the people, checks and balances - not racist country with only one religious/ethnic/cultural group...
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I NEVER listen to pundits.

BTW, the Cambridge dictionary defines pundit as

"a person who knows a lot about a particular subject and is therefore often asked to give an opinion about it"​

I'm left to wonder who you do listen to.

I don't listen to anyone's videos. I use Google News to read a variety of newspaper articles from around the world which are not editorials.

@IndigoChild5559, I'm 78 years old and may be a little slow, so help me.

Your ...
  1. "I NEVER listen to pundits" and
  2. "I don't listen to anyone's videos"
are reactions to a post where I provide a link to a Slate article. To what video are you referring.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
@IndigoChild5559, I'm 78 years old and may be a little slow, so help me.

Your ...
  1. "I NEVER listen to pundits" and
  2. "I don't listen to anyone's videos"
are reactions to a post where I provide a link to a Slate article. To what video are you referring.
Oh my. I made a terrible mistake. I confused a conversation I was having with someone else at the same time with our conversation. My abject apologies.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
Oh my. I made a terrible mistake. I confused a conversation I was having with someone else at the same time with our conversation. My abject apologies.
It is truly theraputic to know that others have done that as well. :D

Nice to see the non fallacious engagement with topic --- How bout that Iron dome !! not sure we call it a "Stunning Victory" but, with the help of USA and others taking most of the cruise missiles and slow moving drones out prior to reaching the dome .. and the dome taking out most of the rest .. was a damn good showing. Israeli arms business will be bustling after the war .. So .. some good defense action for sure.

On the other hand .. was a victory for Iran as well -- they demonstrated the ability to target and hit anywhere in Israel .. the Iron Dome didn't do so well against the ballistic missiles which found home. also -- at a cost of maybe 30 million .. made Israel and the others spend 3 Billion.. a costly night out at the club .. yeeeeouchee .. and put Israel on Notice that Iran can destroy Israel at will .. can fire way more drones and missiles than Israel has air defense .. then when run out of missiles .. boo hoo hoo ..

So .. no A"victory over Iran" .. but a nice showing of the Iron Dome capabilities ..
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
So why pollute it?
Two negatives make a positive do they not ? :) har har har

Were you stunned by Iran's capabilities ! .. quite something -- and that was their old stuff they were getting rid of mostly .. had a few goodies in there .. just for show .. think Bibi had a bit of a stain in pants after that night though .. aye .. teetering his Gov't .. hope when ousting him they send him to the Hague .. even though the Irish delegation to the UN say " The Hague too good for Bibi" . ..
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I NEVER listen to pundits. As far as I'm concerned, they are so extreme and so biased that their words are completely worthless to me. Nor am I a "hardliner" or "right wing." I'm so conspicuously a moderate that I tend to irritate everyone. LOL

I can't quote posts from other threads without their author's permission, per Rule 1, but I don't know on which scale it is considered "moderate" to downplay the civilian death toll in Gaza by a factor of 10 while casting doubts on it that no independent or expert assessments of the death toll have echoed, excuse the significant loss of life and suffering as necessary or as something the IDF isn't to be held accountable for, or to make sweeping accusations about an entire population as in this part that I responded to earlier:

Never have the Palestinians ever sincerely wanted a Palestinian state -- they would be fine if their territory were governed by, say, Jordan, as it was before 1967. Their agenda is to destroy the Jewish state with a singular devotion.

I hope I never have to live in a world where common definitions of "moderate" become so watered down and compromised as to include tribalistic dehumanization and rationalization or downplaying of mass killing of civilians.
 

libre

Skylark
Meanwhile, in the wake of this victory, the hostages remain hostages and Hamas has cut in half the number they are willing to release during a six-week pause, and too much of the world couldn't care less.
I just don't understand why the world isn't clamoring for the release of the hostages. This was a war crime. Hamas has no right to demand anything in exchange for them.
Respectfully, I really cannot wrap my head around what you mean when you say the world couldn't care less or that they are not clamouring for the release of the hostages.

Are there specific countries you are talking about? Public opinion? What do you expect other countries/populations to be doing differently?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Respectfully, I really cannot wrap my head around what you mean when you say the world couldn't care less or that they are not clamouring for the release of the hostages.
Respectfully:

I can think of a number of Jewish organized wivils and demonstrations that do just that. I no of none where Jews -- 0.2% of the world's population -- did not constitute the overwhelming majority of the participants.

We are blessed with a reasonably robust social life and I would guess that roughly 80% of our friends are Jewish, all of whom long for a 2-State solution and view Netanyahu as a more despicable and dangerous variant of Trump. Most have family and/or friends in Israel. A couple of articles are indicative of what we see and how we feel.
Note that the Reuters article was last updated six months ago. Note also that, should you google "rise in antisemitism since Oct 7," you will find many similar articles.

Are there specific countries you are talking about? Public opinion? What do you expect other countries/populations to be doing differently?

Please, please read A Rabbi's Cry Of Pain Following Oct. 7 Terror Attacks. Rabbi Sharon Brous summarizes her remarks -- her response to you -- with these words:

Our humble ask is that people give a damn when we die.
It visits an additional anguish on our broken hearts when they do not.

And couple every condemnation of Israel's pursuit of its war against Hamas with a sincere recognition of Hamas culpability and a heart-felt demand that they release the hostages, an act entirely alien to them, yet most likely to immediately and qualitatively transform the lot of Palestinians and Israelis alike.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Tis not the size of the country, but the
might of its several far more powerful
loyal guard dogs.
I understand what you're saying, just saying that the country itself is tiny, tiny, tiny, The amount of land involved is tiny. About 448 Israel's can fit inside the US. Four hundred and forty eight!
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I just don't understand why the world isn't clamoring for the release of the hostages. This was a war crime. Hamas has no right to demand anything in exchange for them.
You mean the hostages held by Hamas, right?

Probably the same reasons the world doesn't clamour for the release of Palestinian hostages held by Israel.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You mean the hostages held by Hamas, right?

Probably the same reasons the world doesn't clamour for the release of Palestinian hostages held by Israel.
That's not true. Many people make an issue of the fact that Israel holds prisoners without trial, including some where evidence of a crime is pretty dubious. That would include me. I'm assuming that's the issue you are referring to.
 
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