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Its not euthanasia, its suicide.

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I can't find any major news reporting this, and I hope to god it isn't true, but several secondary media sources are running with this recent story involving a perfectly healthy woman who was told her depression is incurable and she will never ever get better, and will be voluntarily killing herself next month at the time this story is published.



I'm an advocate of euthanasia, but this doesn't sound right as I've never heard of any incurable mental illness aside from mental retardation or some other issue involving a person's brain where their behavior is severely compromised.

For me this is suicide and not euthanasia , but I also feel if a person wants to end their life, it's their business when all is said and done. Still , I feel this is a really bad decision and I hope , if true, this gets averted.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Sadly, it's true and not new. The Dutch and Belgians have been allowing people to kill themselves for mental health reasons for at least a few decades. It's disgusting and a real failure of their duty to care for their people.

That story is really sad. She was horribly failed by her doctor's. There's no way they've tried every single remedy available. And what about her boyfriend and cats? Someone has to stop this!
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I'm an advocate of euthanasia, but this doesn't sound right as I've never heard of any incurable mental illness aside from mental retardation or some other issue involving a person's brain where their behavior is severely compromised.
From the Mayo Clinic:

If you've been treated for depression but your symptoms haven't improved, you may have treatment-resistant depression. Taking an antidepressant or going to psychological counseling (psychotherapy) eases depression symptoms for most people. But with treatment-resistant depression, standard treatments aren't enough. They may not help much at all, or your symptoms may improve, only to keep coming back. [source]​
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The first three posters on this thread are, yet again, repeating that strange notion that you are your body, and you mind/brain have little to do with anything. They don't express horror at Medical Assistance in Dying (MAiD) when incurable body illnesses are involved, but deny that such a thing could happen to the mind.

Once again, while so many here at RF are concerned with "spirituality," the mind simply doesn't seem to play a part. I find that so strange.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
The first three posters on this thread are, yet again, repeating that strange notion that you are your body, and you mind/brain have little to do with anything. They don't express horror at Medical Assistance in Dying (MAiD) when incurable body illnesses are involved, but deny that such a thing could happen to the mind.

Once again, while so many here at RF are concerned with "spirituality," the mind simply doesn't seem to play a part. I find that so strange.
Please don't put words into my mouth or make assumptions. I know very well the pain and suffering of mental illness, so how dare you go there. My outrage is more these people being lied to and thrown away by careless doctors and failed by society. It's morally vacuous at best to rubber stamp the suicides of vulnerable people. No, having severe depression is not the same as terminal cancer.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Please don't put words into my mouth or make assumptions. I know very well the pain and suffering of mental illness, so how dare you go there. My outrage is more these people being lied to and thrown away by careless doctors and failed by society. It's morally vacuous at best to rubber stamp the suicides of vulnerable people. No, having severe depression is not the same as terminal cancer.
The words I read are your own -- I didn't put them there!

"Sadly, it's true and not new. The Dutch and Belgians have been allowing people to kill themselves for mental health reasons for at least a few decades. It's disgusting and a real failure of their duty to care for their people.
"That story is really sad. She was horribly failed by her doctor's. There's no way they've tried every single remedy available. And what about her boyfriend and cats? Someone has to stop this!"
You have made a judgment, on your own, about what her doctor(s) told her. Do you know everything they tried? Do you know what they didn't try, and that might work? Do you know how long one should keep trying after failure after failure after failure? Yes, you might know that about yourself, but do you know that about everybody else, too?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
My outrage is more these people being lied to and thrown away by careless doctors and failed by society. It's morally vacuous at best to rubber stamp the suicides of vulnerable people.
It's also a morally vacuous outrage to presume that careless doctors in a failed society lied to this woman while presuming her to be so easily duped.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
The words I read are your own -- I didn't put them there!

"Sadly, it's true and not new. The Dutch and Belgians have been allowing people to kill themselves for mental health reasons for at least a few decades. It's disgusting and a real failure of their duty to care for their people.
"That story is really sad. She was horribly failed by her doctor's. There's no way they've tried every single remedy available. And what about her boyfriend and cats? Someone has to stop this!"
You have made a judgment, on your own, about what her doctor(s) told her. Do you know everything they tried? Do you know what they didn't try, and that might work? Do you know how long one should keep trying after failure after failure after failure? Yes, you might know that about yourself, but do you know that about everybody else, too?
I'm going to guess you didn't bother to read the article.

"“I’m seeing euthanasia as some sort of acceptable option brought to the table by physicians, by psychiatrists, when previously it was the ultimate last resort,” Stef Groenewoud, a health care ethicist at Theological University Kampen, in the Netherlands, told the outlet.

“I see the phenomenon especially in people with psychiatric diseases, and especially young people with psychiatric disorders, where the health care professional seems to give up on them more easily than before,” she added."

It is very hard to get decent mental health care even in the best of times. It's very stigmatized and usually underfunded. Doctors can be quick to give up on patients and can be very ignorant about these things. I've often felt, myself, that it seems like the government and society (as in its institutions) would be happier if people like me just died, so then they don't have to spend any money on us and so forth.

They also tend to rely on things like antidepressants which don't really work and can cause further problems, especially in long time use. She not only has depression, but borderline personality disorder and autism. BPD points to a history of trauma. There's multiple forms of therapy that can be helpful with people who have BPD and similar issues, and also methods of therapy that are good at processing trauma. There is also psychedelic and ketamine therapy and trans-cranial magnetic stimulation. People with autism are known to have higher suggestibility, as well. Either way, she is a vulnerable person and probably has poor social skills as well as the article mentioning her being socially isolated.

Ultimately, people who committ suicide out of despair due to psychological pain have been failed by society. There's no reason why suicide is inevitable. Mental illness isn't terminal. People who are suicidal due to mental illness are quite simply not thinking rationally. They usually actually believe that the world would be better off without them, which is a delusional belief. It always hurts someone. There's always someone left behind, even if it's just a pet.

As much as it sucks at times, I'm glad the police and doctors didn't just give up on me and took my suicidal feelings and attempts seriously. The point is to try and do all you you can to save a patient. Of course there's the reality of terminal illness and sometimes we must prepare the patient for dying. But it's not like that with mental illness, which are a series of flawed thinking processes. We can always change our thinking if we keep trying and if we get the care we need. Sometimes it's just a gifted clinician or social worker who manages to have a breakthrough with a client who is struggling. It takes real humanity and care.

A society that gives up on a patient and says that what their depression is telling them is true is a cruel, heartless and irrational society that deserves to end.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Its also a morally vacuous outrage to presume that careless doctors in a failed society lied to this woman while presuming her to be so easily duped.
It isn't, when you've been dealing with mental health problems all of your life and navigating society and the healthcare system as a mentally ill person. I think I know what I'm talking about, so take your smug rudeness elsewhere.
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm going to guess you didn't bother to read the article.

"“I’m seeing euthanasia as some sort of acceptable option brought to the table by physicians, by psychiatrists, when previously it was the ultimate last resort,” Stef Groenewoud, a health care ethicist at Theological University Kampen, in the Netherlands, told the outlet.

“I see the phenomenon especially in people with psychiatric diseases, and especially young people with psychiatric disorders, where the health care professional seems to give up on them more easily than before,” she added."

It is very hard to get decent mental health care even in the best of times. It's very stigmatized and usually underfunded. Doctors can be quick to give up on patients and can be very ignorant about these things. I've often felt, myself, that it seems like the government and society (as in its institutions) would be happier if people like me just died, so then they don't have to spend any money on us and so forth.

They also tend to rely on things like antidepressants which don't really work and can cause further problems, especially in long time use. She not only has depression, but borderline personality disorder and autism. BPD points to a history of trauma. There's multiple forms of therapy that can be helpful with people who have BPD and similar issues, and also methods of therapy that are good at processing trauma. There is also psychedelic and ketamine therapy and trans-cranial magnetic stimulation. People with autism are known to have higher suggestibility, as well. Either way, she is a vulnerable person and probably has poor social skills as well as the article mentioning her being socially isolated.

Ultimately, people who committ suicide out of despair due to psychological pain have been failed by society. There's no reason why suicide is inevitable. Mental illness isn't terminal. People who are suicidal due to mental illness are quite simply not thinking rationally. They usually actually believe that the world would be better off without them, which is a delusional belief. It always hurts someone. There's always someone left behind, even if it's just a pet.

As much as it sucks at times, I'm glad the police and doctors didn't just give up on me and took my suicidal feelings and attempts seriously. The point is to try and do all you you can to save a patient. Of course there's the reality of terminal illness and sometimes we must prepare the patient for dying. But it's not like that with mental illness, which are a series of flawed thinking processes. We can always change our thinking if we keep trying and if we get the care we need. Sometimes it's just a gifted clinician or social worker who manages to have a breakthrough with a client who is struggling. It takes real humanity and care.

A society that gives up on a patient and says that what their depression is telling them is true is a cruel, heartless and irrational society that deserves to end.
Well said, and I'm sorry you went through dark times.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I really wonder if the couple in that article truly understand the finality of death. You can't take it back. It's over. Does the boyfriend think he will be exempt from the grieving process? He won't. He's opening himself up to lifelong trauma by going along with it. And the cats, too. They're going to grieve over her not being there.

I really don't think a lot of these people understand what they're doing. It's obvious that many suicidal people don't really understand the what they're doing in the first place.
 

☆Dreamwind☆

Active Member
To be frank, the mental health care system is anything but. No one stigmatizes or dehumanizes their patients more cruelly then psychiatrists and therapists. No one takes away their agency, commits irreperable physical and emòtional harm, and violates all human rights faster. And in a way that no other doctor could dare get away with, while society applauds it.

It is and has always been run by exploitative, power hungry fools who don't give two s**** about their patients.

How can anyone get better when their doctors tell them they'll never get better? How can anyone not be depressed when forced to bend to their will with threats, sedation, violence, institutionalization, and medications they can't refuse?

How could anyone possibly get better in a system that treats them like idiots and imprisons them?

When a patient's rights are respected. When the word NO is respected, when they no longer weild undisputed legal power over complete strangers, and treatment is totally voluntary, THEN and only THEN can people have a chance to heal.

Until they're legally forced to face justice and obey civil rights laws, they're nothing but narcissistic liars who sedate their victims around the clock and claim they're benevolent healers

If your business has to legally kidnap, drug, imprison,threaten and denigrate its patients, then something is seriously wrong. I truly wish that mental health workers would go the way of the dodo, it's a system that should never have come into place and their victims were better off without them. So yes, I'd say both Society and Psychiatry failed that poor woman.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
To be frank, the mental health care system is anything but. No one stigmatizes or dehumanizes their patients more cruelly then psychiatrists and therapists. No one takes away their agency, commits irreperable physical and emòtional harm, and violates all human rights faster. And in a way that no other doctor could dare get away with, while society applauds it.

It is and has always been run by exploitative, power hungry fools who don't give two s**** about their patients.

How can anyone get better when their doctors tell them they'll never get better? How can anyone not be depressed when forced to bend to their will with threats, sedation, violence, institutionalization, and medications they can't refuse?

How could anyone possibly get better in a system that treats them like idiots and imprisons them?

When a patient's rights are respected. When the word NO is respected, when they no longer weild undisputed legal power over complete strangers, and treatment is totally voluntary, THEN and only THEN can people have a chance to heal.

Until they're legally forced to face justice and obey civil rights laws, they're nothing but narcissistic liars who sedate their victims around the clock and claim they're benevolent healers

If your business has to legally kidnap, drug, imprison,threaten and denigrate its patients, then something is seriously wrong. I truly wish that mental health workers would go the way of the dodo, it's a system that should never have come into place and their victims were better off without them. So yes, I'd say both Society and Psychiatry failed that poor woman.
You know it seems every time I interact with health professionals, more often than not I get the distinct feeling of being nothing more than a big bag of money walking around than anything else.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
To be frank, the mental health care system is anything but. No one stigmatizes or dehumanizes their patients more cruelly then psychiatrists and therapists. No one takes away their agency, commits irreperable physical and emòtional harm, and violates all human rights faster. And in a way that no other doctor could dare get away with, while society applauds it.

It is and has always been run by exploitative, power hungry fools who don't give two s**** about their patients.

How can anyone get better when their doctors tell them they'll never get better? How can anyone not be depressed when forced to bend to their will with threats, sedation, violence, institutionalization, and medications they can't refuse?

How could anyone possibly get better in a system that treats them like idiots and imprisons them?

When a patient's rights are respected. When the word NO is respected, when they no longer weild undisputed legal power over complete strangers, and treatment is totally voluntary, THEN and only THEN can people have a chance to heal.

Until they're legally forced to face justice and obey civil rights laws, they're nothing but narcissistic liars who sedate their victims around the clock and claim they're benevolent healers

If your business has to legally kidnap, drug, imprison,threaten and denigrate its patients, then something is seriously wrong. I truly wish that mental health workers would go the way of the dodo, it's a system that should never have come into place and their victims were better off without them. So yes, I'd say both Society and Psychiatry failed that poor woman.
All I know is that my brother is seriously mentally ill, and I was told repeatedly by the state that until he actually broke the law or threatened to become a danger to himself or others, it was not illegal to be mentally ill. And they were true to their word, apparently, since he was living life the way he wanted to till he broke various laws. He went through a program and then onto disability and all that and is now living life the way he wants again, but at tax payer expense.
 
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