My thoughts about why people say that Jesus is not God

[Niatero]

NOTE: To avoid misunderstandings, I think I should say that I am not a Christian and I don't believe in any Christian doctrines about salvation and the Triniity.

I'm posting this in a debate forum not because I want to debate about it, but because I don't want to try to stop people from debating about it if they want to.

(edited) Please ignore everything below the line. I was making it too complicated. I'm thinking that when people say that Jesus is not God, what they mean is that Jesus and God are not the same person, which maybe everybody already knows. (end edit)

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Sometimes when the Bible says "God," it means the Father and sometimes it means Jesus. Maybe also sometimes it means the Holy Spirit and sometimes it means all three of them together, but that doesn't matter for my purpose here. I'm thinking that most often it means the Father, or at least people think it does., One way or another, sometimes people think that "God" can only mean the Father, so when you say that Jesus is God, they think that you're saying that Jesus is the Father. That's why they think it's wrong to say that Jesus is God. I also disagree with saying that Jesus is God, because of the confusion and controversy that it creates, without any good reason for substituting those words in the place of the words of the Bible.

(later) I take that back. Some of the reasons for saying that Jesus is God don't look that bad to me, but I still say that it isn't necessary, that it doesn't do any good to say it in those words, all it does is create a lot of confusion, divide Christians from each other and repel other people away from learning about Jesus and what He wants for us.

(later) Actually, I don't disagree with saying that Jesus is God, between people who agree to say it that way. What I disagree with is arguing and debating about it, and insisting that people are wrong when they say Jesus is not God, because all they are really saying is that the Son is not the Father, just saying "Jesus" instead of "the Son" and "God" instead of "the Father." Wouldn't you agree that's an easy mistake to make?

 

[Soapy]

NOTE: To avoid misunderstandings, I think I should say that I am not a Christian and I don't believe in any Christian doctrines about salvation and the Triniity.

I'm posting this in a debate forum not because I want to debate about it, but because I don't want to try to stop people from debating about it if they want to.

Sometimes when the Bible says "God," it means the Father and sometimes it means Jesus. Maybe also sometimes it means the Holy Spirit and sometimes it means all three of them together, but that doesn't matter for my purpose here. I'm thinking that most often it means the Father, or at least people think it does., One way or another, sometimes people think that "God" can only mean the Father, so when you say that Jesus is God, they think that you're saying that Jesus is the Father. That's why they think it's wrong to say that Jesus is God. I also disagree with saying that Jesus is God, because of the confusion and controversy that it creates, without any good reason for substituting those words in the place of the words of the Bible.

(later) I take that back. Some of the reasons for saying that Jesus is God don't look that bad to me, but I still say that it isn't necessary, that it doesn't do any good to say it in those words, all it does is create a lot of confusion, divide Christians from each other and repel other people away from learning about Jesus and what He wants for us.

It’s simply right to say that Jesus is not God because it is true that Jesus is not God.

Nowhere in scriptures, or the belief of the children of God, is Jesus declared as God, Almighty God, YHWH.

All through the Scriptures where Jesus [Christ], is stated, he is addressed as “the Son of God”, or ‘The Servant of God’.

You may be thinking of a verse which says: ‘Thy throne, Oh God’, or ‘Therefore God, Thy God, has …’

Do you understand that the word, ‘God’, also means ‘Mighty One’…. as well as being the TITLE of ‘The Mighty One’.

Bare these two expressions and meanings in mind when reading the scriptures…

Take the first:

• ‘Thy throne, O God, will be an everlasting throne…’ (paraphrased).

Could it read:

• “Thy throne, O MIGHTY ONE, will be an everlasting throne…’ (paraphrased).

Is it reasonable to suggest that ALMIGHTY GID: YHWH, the Father, that His throne WILL BE eternal…? when we already know that His throne IS ALREADY eternal?

Or is it reasonable to suggest that the eternal throne (of king David, a man) WILL BE ruled over by THE MAN whom scriptures decanted as ‘Son of David’… or are we to believe that ALMIGHTY God is to rule from a human throne?

P.s. read the scriptures about Jesus’ rulership and see that they do not apply in any way to YHWH God; the Father… the only true Gid, stated by Jesus, himself!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm trying to allow for the fact the the OP is timestamped 4:45 AM.

 

[Niatero]

I'm trying to allow for the fact the the OP is timestamped 4:45 AM.

Thank you.

 

[amazing grace]

NOTE: To avoid misunderstandings, I think I should say that I am not a Christian and I don't believe in any Christian doctrines about salvation and the Triniity.

I'm posting this in a debate forum not because I want to debate about it, but because I don't want to try to stop people from debating about it if they want to.

(edited) Please ignore everything below the line. I was making it too complicated. I'm thinking that when people say that Jesus is not God, what they mean is that Jesus and God are not the same person, which maybe everybody already knows. (end edit)

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Why I do not believe Jesus is God: Scriptures do not claim that Jesus is God. The disciples did not teach Jesus was God. Jesus did not teach that he was God. It's true that Jesus and God are NOT the same person - God is Spirit and Jesus was a human being who was filled with the Spirit of God, i.e. the Holy Spirit working in him and enabling him to remain sinless.

This is mainstream trinitarian theology: God is the Father, God is the Son, God is the Holy Spirit but the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not the Son nor the Father. These are all separate and distinct - yet ONE God. Confused yet?

 

[Niatero]

Why I do not believe Jesus is God: Scriptures do not claim that Jesus is God. The disciples did not teach Jesus was God. Jesus did not teach that he was God. It's true that Jesus and God are NOT the same person - God is Spirit and Jesus was a human being who was filled with the Spirit of God, i.e. the Holy Spirit working in him and enabling him to remain sinless.

This is mainstream trinitarian theology: God is the Father, God is the Son, God is the Holy Spirit but the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not the Son nor the Father. These are all separate and distinct - yet ONE God. Confused yet?

For the record, I see a way for it to be true.

 

[jimb]

Why I do not believe Jesus is God: Scriptures do not claim that Jesus is God. The disciples did not teach Jesus was God. Jesus did not teach that he was God. It's true that Jesus and God are NOT the same person - God is Spirit and Jesus was a human being who was filled with the Spirit of God, i.e. the Holy Spirit working in him and enabling him to remain sinless.

This is mainstream trinitarian theology: God is the Father, God is the Son, God is the Holy Spirit but the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not the Son nor the Father. These are all separate and distinct - yet ONE God. Confused yet?

Nope. Not confused in the slightest, any more than I'm confused by the fact that I'm body, mind, and spirit.

 

[Niatero]

Nope. Not confused in the slightest, any more than I'm confused by the fact that I'm body, mind, and spirit.

Is Jesus His own father? Is God His own son? Is Jesus talking to Himself when He says "Let this cup pass from me," and "Why hast thou forsaken me"?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Is Jesus His own father? Is God His own son?

Are you familiar with the hypostatic union? FYI, it is a Christian theological belief that Jesus took on human nature yet remained fully God when he lived as a man. It encapsulates the belief regarding his humanity and divinity (two natures) in a single hypostasis and is in conjunction with the Trinity doctrine.

 

[jimb]

Why I do not believe Jesus is God: Scriptures do not claim that Jesus is God. The disciples did not teach Jesus was God. Jesus did not teach that he was God. It's true that Jesus and God are NOT the same person - God is Spirit and Jesus was a human being who was filled with the Spirit of God, i.e. the Holy Spirit working in him and enabling him to remain sinless.

This is mainstream trinitarian theology: God is the Father, God is the Son, God is the Holy Spirit but the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not the Son nor the Father. These are all separate and distinct - yet ONE God. Confused yet?

Nope, not confused.

"I and the Father are one" John 10:30

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one" John 17:20-22

"Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" John 14:9

Admittedly, this is not an easy concept to grasp, but it is God's revealed truth.

 

[jimb]

Is Jesus His own father? Is God His own son? Is Jesus talking to Himself when He says "Let this cup pass from me," and "Why hast thou forsaken me"?

See the previous post #10

 

[Niatero]

Are you familiar with the hypostatic union? FYI, it is a Christian theological belief that Jesus took on human nature yet remained fully God when he lived as a man. It encapsulates the belief regarding his humanity and divinity (two natures) in a single hypostasis and is in conjunction with the Trinity doctrine.

I'm saying that Jesus and God are not the same person. If you say that they are, then you're contradicting the Trinity doctrine. Look at the Trinity triangle where it says "IS NOT."

 

[Niatero]

See the previous post #10

Ask your pastor if Jesus and God are the same person. Not essence. Not hypostasis. Person.

 

[jimb]

Ask your pastor if Jesus and God are the same person. Not essence. Not hypostasis. Person.

You ask your pastor why you don't understand that Jesus and God are the same person.

 

[jimb]

I'm saying that Jesus and God are not the same person. If you say that they are, then you're contradicting the Trinity doctrine. Look at the Trinity triangle where it says "IS NOT."

You need to look at the Trinity triangle more carefully. It clearly says that the Father IS the Son.

 

[amazing grace]

Nope. Not confused in the slightest, any more than I'm confused by the fact that I'm body, mind, and spirit.

Yes, human beings are comprised of body soul and spirit - Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ - meaning a complete person is comprised of a body, soul, and spirit. But my body is not separate and distinct from my soul nor my spirit and could not exist as such, i.e. not separate and distinct persons.

 

[shunyadragon]

You need to look at the Trinity triangle more carefully. It clearly says that the Father IS the Son.

Polytheism in Christianity. Many believers do not believe as you do based on the scripture.

 

[King Phenomenon]

To me it’s simple. “Jesus” is god manifest.

 

[Colt]

NOTE: To avoid misunderstandings, I think I should say that I am not a Christian and I don't believe in any Christian doctrines about salvation and the Triniity.

I'm posting this in a debate forum not because I want to debate about it, but because I don't want to try to stop people from debating about it if they want to.

(edited) Please ignore everything below the line. I was making it too complicated. I'm thinking that when people say that Jesus is not God, what they mean is that Jesus and God are not the same person, which maybe everybody already knows. (end edit)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes when the Bible says "God," it means the Father and sometimes it means Jesus. Maybe also sometimes it means the Holy Spirit and sometimes it means all three of them together, but that doesn't matter for my purpose here. I'm thinking that most often it means the Father, or at least people think it does., One way or another, sometimes people think that "God" can only mean the Father, so when you say that Jesus is God, they think that you're saying that Jesus is the Father. That's why they think it's wrong to say that Jesus is God. I also disagree with saying that Jesus is God, because of the confusion and controversy that it creates, without any good reason for substituting those words in the place of the words of the Bible.

(later) I take that back. Some of the reasons for saying that Jesus is God don't look that bad to me, but I still say that it isn't necessary, that it doesn't do any good to say it in those words, all it does is create a lot of confusion, divide Christians from each other and repel other people away from learning about Jesus and what He wants for us.

(later) Actually, I don't disagree with saying that Jesus is God, between people who agree to say it that way. What I disagree with is arguing and debating about it, and insisting that people are wrong when they say Jesus is not God, because all they are really saying is that the Son is not the Father, just saying "Jesus" instead of "the Son" and "God" instead of "the Father." Wouldn't you agree that's an easy mistake to make?

First, define "God".

Then explain why God can't delegate creative powers and authority to his Sons of various orders? In other words, explain the source of the limitations superimposed on the Infinite by the finite?

 

[amazing grace]

Nope, not confused.

"I and the Father are one" John 10:30

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one" John 17:20-22

Yes, God was IN Christ and the Father (God) AND Jesus will dwell IN those who believe in Jesus Christ through the message left by the disciples. Now if I am trinitarian, I read into John 10:30 as saying "Jesus is God because they are one." And following that same logic - then all who believe in Jesus are "one as we are one" means all who believe are also God.

"Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" John 14:9

How did Jesus "show us the Father"?
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves." Jesus was given authority to say what his Father told him to say (John 12:49, etc.) and it was the Father (God) working IN and through him doing the works. (Acts 2:22)

Admittedly, this is not an easy concept to grasp, but it is God's revealed truth.

Yep, it's very clear from scripture that God sent his Son, a miraculous conception in the womb of Mary by way of the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High. None of which declares that God was to be born, be a man and walk on the earth, die on a cross, and be raised from the dead exalted to God's right hand.