Not sure if this is the right forum, but--maybe we can talk about Spinoza and his concept of God for a while

[YoursTrue]

I’d like to think of that possibility, although it is all theological.

It reminds me of the angels who go around the throne declaring “Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God Almighty as if in each time they went around, they found a new dimention, a new eternal aspect of God.


Ultimately, I would agree with this position.



I would probably question this, since we cannot understand the eternal. If He does not derive from “an outside concept for his conceivability” - then how can we, the outsiders, conceive His capacity. If He is of infinite substance, cannot there be essences and attributes that are equal but expanding eternally in, let’s say, three difference directions?



Obviously, I would be looking at it through my limited mind and through the eyes of a Christian, but I would say it is spiritual substance - but what is that?

I wonder if Spinoza or Einstein prayed.

 

[Balthazzar]

Getting there is part of the evolutionary journey, IMO. I know I've improved, but a loonngggg way to go.

It may be the only possible way. I don't know if we can help but to improve and i don't know if this will ever change, so the duration of ongoing improvements may last for some time ...

 

[Balthazzar]

"Odium nunquam potest esse bonum."

--Spinoza

Specifically due to how we hate what we hate, eh?

 

[metis]

Yup.

So, two geniuses are wrong and you are right? Granted there's a possibly that you are the one that is right, but if I was a gambling man I would have to bet it's the other way around.

 

[metis]

I wonder if Spinoza or Einstein prayed.

Probably not in the way you are thinking.

 

[YoursTrue]

Probably not in the way you are thinking.

Could be. ... (After all, Jesus DID put the prayer he wanted his disciples to pray, "Our Father in heaven...let your kingdom come...") and I doubt Einstein or Spinoza prayed that. However, since I believe in Jesus and the resurrection of the dead and I believe both Einstein and Spinoza will be resurrected (I have no reason to believe otherwise) then hopefully we'll see the outcome.

 

[YoursTrue]

So, two geniuses are wrong and you are right? Granted there's a possibly that you are the one that is right, but if I was a gambling man I would have to bet it's the other way around.

Geniuses do not make right.

 

[metis]

Geniuses do not make right.

I did not say nor imply they did, so why did you post this? Matter of fact, I said you could be right all along, so what's the fuss?

 

[YoursTrue]

It may be the only possible way. I don't know if we can help but to improve and i don't know if this will ever change, so the duration of ongoing improvements may last for some time ...

Speaking of "evolutionary improvements," the oceans are continually being polluted by plastics and other toxic substances. Evolution isn't helping to stop the murder of fish and other natural substances.
Recognizing you probably don't believe the following (I do, but here it is anyway for you to look at): from the book of Revelation chapter 11: It's a prophecy:

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because You have taken Your great power
and have begun to reign.
18The nations were enraged,
and Your wrath has come
The time has come to judge the dead
and to reward Your servants the prophets,
as well as the saints and those who fear Your name,
both small and great—
and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

So again, I figure you don't believe that because you believe in evolution, but that's what the Bible says. I believe it will happen. God will DESTROY THOSE WHO DESTROY THE EARTH. No one can stop the continual polluting of the earth and atmosphere but God. And (I believe) He will!

 

[YoursTrue]

I did not say nor imply they did, so why did you post this? Matter of fact, I said you could be right all along, so what's the fuss?

Ok. Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

[wellwisher]

Assuming this is the right forum to discuss this as peacefully as possible, I am learning somewhat (although for me it's hard to understand) about Spinoza's concept of God. So one comment reads, I'm just going to center on a few sentences because otherwise for me it gets too confusing.
"As understood by Spinoza, God is the one infinite substance who possesses an infinite number of attributes each expressing an eternal aspect of his/her nature.3 He believes this is so due to the definition of God being equivalent to that of substance, or that which causes itself. By that which causes itself, Spinoza means that God is the only being who does not derive from an external cause for his/her existence or an outside concept for his/her conceivability. Moreover, Spinoza claims that only God can be a substance since the existence of two or more substances with the same essence and attributes would necessarily be identical or incompatible. 4 That is, Spinoza believes if people were to try to perceive two or more substances of the same essence and attributes they would be unable to do so since there would be no differentiating characteristics between them that anyone can acknowledge as belonging to either one of them exclusively."
From -- Spinoza on God, Affects, and the Nature of Sorrow – Florida Philosophical Review
Anyone care to dissect this particularly about "substance"? and what it means thereafter?

I get the impression that Spinoza is defining a God, like the concept of a limit in math. Math limits converges to one place and not to many places; an asymptote. Below the curve is slowly reaching the dashed line and not two dashed lines. This math function below when plotted shows a curve that reaches a single asymptote an infinite number of times until one again.

Concepts like the Trinity are more about the curve of God, changing into different phases, on route to the asymptote of the dashed line. God the Father is the Old Testament Vision; part of the curve, that made sense for the childhood of human consciousness. Then we have the Son, who makes more sense for the adult man with children of his own; instinctive bond and patience. Then the Holy Spirit is where the distinctions become less obvious; olde man and the wisdom of the ages. All the phases are of the one substance of the one God. However, since it can intersect the asymptote an infinite number of times, all expression of gods, come from the one God aspect, that is the final asymptote where there are no more intersections but one.

 

[metis]

I get the impression that Spinoza is defining a God

Not so much as he does believe that God and Nature [used in the broadest sense of the word] are likely the same.

 

[YoursTrue]

@metis. One more thing. In my defense. At least one poster has expressed the idea that she'd rather believe or agree with what a genius says about things in question because they're geniuses.

 

[Balthazzar]

Speaking of "evolutionary improvements," the oceans are continually being polluted by plastics and other toxic substances. Evolution isn't helping to stop the murder of fish and other natural substances.
Recognizing you probably don't believe the following (I do, but here it is anyway for you to look at): from the book of Revelation chapter 11: It's a prophecy:

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because You have taken Your great power
and have begun to reign.
18The nations were enraged,
and Your wrath has come
The time has come to judge the dead
and to reward Your servants the prophets,
as well as the saints and those who fear Your name,
both small and great—
and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

So again, I figure you don't believe that because you believe in evolution, but that's what the Bible says. I believe it will happen. God will DESTROY THOSE WHO DESTROY THE EARTH. No one can stop the continual polluting of the earth and atmosphere but God. And (I believe) He will!

Interesting you would think this about me. My value has not been unacknowledged. I question whether you do, however. Isn't plastic recyclable? Mercury levels are rising also, which tend to have an adverse effect on us when we consume fish products. Do you think I would be on board with toxic mutant evolution? Mutant Ninja turtles, haaaa! I wonder if I'll turn into a Ninja turtle? Meh, probably not, I'm a human. Spider man maybe or Venom or maybe something else. What do you think? Who's destroying the earth exactly. Maybe I'll join the team against them.

I wonder what toxin or mutagen would be capable of toxic mutantagenetic evolutionary transformation?

 

[metis]

@metis. One more thing. In my defense. At least one poster has expressed the idea that she'd rather believe or agree with what a genius says about things in question because they're geniuses.

I don't think anyone has a monopoly on truth or falsehood.

 

[YoursTrue]

Interesting you would think this about me. My value has not been unacknowledged. I question whether you do, however. Isn't plastic recyclable? Mercury levels are rising also, which tend to have an adverse effect on us when we consume fish products. Do you think I would be on board with toxic mutant evolution? Mutant Ninja turtles, haaaa! I wonder if I'll turn into a Ninja turtle? Meh, probably not, I'm a human. Spider man maybe or Venom or maybe something else. What do you think? Who's destroying the earth exactly. Maybe I'll join the team against them.

I wonder what toxin or mutagen would be capable of toxic mutantagenetic evolutionary transformation?

I guess you either don't understand what I am saying or I misunderstand your view. We are all involved, some unwittingly because we can't help it. Others know they are contributing willfully to deadly pollution.

 

[YoursTrue]

I get the impression that Spinoza is defining a God, like the concept of a limit in math. Math limits converges to one place and not to many places; an asymptote. Below the curve is slowly reaching the dashed line and not two dashed lines. This math function below when plotted shows a curve that reaches a single asymptote an infinite number of times until one again.

Concepts like the Trinity are more about the curve of God, changing into different phases, on route to the asymptote of the dashed line. God the Father is the Old Testament Vision; part of the curve, that made sense for the childhood of human consciousness. Then we have the Son, who makes more sense for the adult man with children of his own; instinctive bond and patience. Then the Holy Spirit is where the distinctions become less obvious; olde man and the wisdom of the ages. All the phases are of the one substance of the one God. However, since it can intersect the asymptote an infinite number of times, all expression of gods, come from the one God aspect, that is the final asymptote where there are no more intersections but one.

Ok this is too abstruse for me to settle with. Hope you have a good day. Bye for now.

 

[Balthazzar]

I guess you either don't understand what I am saying or I misunderstand your view. We are all involved, some unwittingly because we can't help it. Others know they are contributing willfully to deadly pollution.

Yeah, but what if the mutagens create a toxic mutagenetic variant able to produce mutants like sub zero?

Ok, so I'm joking. I actually think we will help restore the earth when its required. Pollution may take a while to sift through the filters, but efforts are being made. It's concerning, sure but it's not too late. One day, I'm sure most will be on board with non destructive earth concepts and maybe this is what revelation is insinuating. We'll get past those ways and our paradigms will shift from destruction to healing.

What sucks about it is before we're able to change things, we're required to acknowledge need. Something about the concept of only those who are sick needing a physician. Precautions are one thing. Needing to address something is another.

 

[vulcanlogician]

Spinoza was lost. Anyway, I think (but I don't KNOW that for a fact) that he will come back in the resurrection and have a chance to understand more. I hope so anyway. Acts 24:15 - New Living Translation
I have the same hope in God that these men have, that he will raise both the righteous and the unrighteous.

While I would personally disagree with the notion that Spinoza was lost, I understand how more traditional theists would reject his notions.

He was very close to being a naturalist or atheist. The only thing really keeping him out of these categories is his famous (infamous) God concept which differs greatly from those of traditional theists.

He was expelled from his Jewish community in Holland early in his life, and later was even attacked by a knife-wielding crazy person who shouted "Heretic!"The tensions with his Jewish community were high to say the least.

But those whom he surrounded himself with told a different story about the man. They said he was a gentle, thoughtful, and sagely person.

Also, oddly enough for a Jew, he referred to Jesus as "Christ" and (it's pretty plain to see that he thought highly of Jesus (or perhaps, some hypothesize) he was only pretending to. I personally think he admired Jesus in several ways. But he was FAR from what you might call a Christian.

I recommend reading the first few pages of his theological-political tract do get the basic gist of his criticisms of religion. He obviously disliked superstitious thinking, in all its forms. If you think Spinoza is lost, that will inform you better concerning HOW he might be lost.

 

[YoursTrue]

While I would personally disagree with the notion that Spinoza was lost, I understand how more traditional theists would reject his notions.

He was very close to being a naturalist or atheist. The only thing really keeping him out of these categories is his famous (infamous) God concept which differs greatly from those of traditional theists.

He was expelled from his Jewish community in Holland early in his life, and later was even attacked by a knife-wielding crazy person who shouted "Heretic!"The tensions with his Jewish community were high to say the least.

But those whom he surrounded himself with told a different story about the man. They said he was a gentle, thoughtful, and sagely person.

Also, oddly enough for a Jew, he referred to Jesus as "Christ" and (it's pretty plain to see that he thought highly of Jesus (or perhaps, some hypothesize) he was only pretending to. I personally think he admired Jesus in several ways. But he was FAR from what you might call a Christian.

I recommend reading the first few pages of his theological-political tract do get the basic gist of his criticisms of religion. He obviously disliked superstitious thinking, in all its forms. If you think Spinoza is lost, that will inform you better concerning HOW he might be lost.

Ok thank you. I can appreciate greatly how lost he would have been because I had a similar experience but I didn't make up things as to what I thought God was. Because of the confusion in religion and things like Easter eggs, Christmas trees, etc. I figured God did not exist. I even read Alan Watts trying to figure where was God? Still couldn't figure. But then...but then... something happened that helped me to understand something much more. Specifically, that there is a God who cares and exists.