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question for those who reject biological evolution
- Thread starter anotherneil
- Start date
leroy
Well-Known Member
We have done so many times. As I pointed out the language that was used told us that you were wrong in your conclusions. Same "loci" does not mean "same place." The language alone told you that. This is why context matters. But since you never looked up the term yourself I will do so for you:
Locus (genetics) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
"In genetics, a locus (pl.: loci) is a specific, fixed position on a chromosome where a particular gene or genetic marker is located.[1]"
In other words the same gene on the same chromosome means same locus. Finding that is evidence of common descent. No one has been debating against that since we are talking mammals here. They have a relatively recent common ancestor probably less than 65 million years ago.
But what exactly is a locus of a gene? They give an example:
"A range of loci is specified in a similar way. For example, the locus of gene OCA1 may be written "11q1.4-q2.1", meaning it is on the long arm of chromosome 11, somewhere in the range from sub-band 4 of region 1 to sub-band 1 of region 2."
The locus of a gene is where it is found on the chromosome. But the articles are about mutations within the genes. Genes are easily tens of thousands of nucleons in length.
Another article that says that the locus is just the location of the gene. It is not saying a specific spot on gene:
Locus
A locus is the specific physical location of a gene or other DNA sequence on a chromosome, like a genetic street address.www.genome.gov
And yet another one:
NCI Dictionary of Genetics Terms
A dictionary of more than 150 genetics-related terms written for healthcare professionals. This resource was developed to support the comprehensive, evidence-based, peer-reviewed PDQ cancer genetics information summaries.www.cancer.gov
You kept misinterpreting "locus" as being a specific spot on a gene after it was explained to you why it did not mean that. You had already lost due to the context that was used. You should have looked up the term yourself. But then you would have seen that you were wrong so I understand why you avoid reliable sites.
mmm
"A locus is a section of a deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) sequence and can be a single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP), a gene or a larger region of DNA sequence."Locus - Mendelian randomization dictionary
So obviosuly locous could be a point in a specific gene......................and sicne the authors of the articles are concerned with Variations within specific genes, they are obviously taking about specific points in genes
but even more important (from the article)
and recent results from several genes have suggested that this phenomenon is powerful enough to also drive recurrent evolution at the sequence level6,7,8,9. Where homoplasious substitutions do occur these have long been considered the result of neutral processes. However, recent studies have demonstrated that adaptive convergent sequence evolution can be detected in vertebrates using statistical methods that model parallel evolutionhttps://www.nature.com/articles/nature12511
As you have been told in the past “homoplasious substitutions” are the actual words that scientists use to refer when 2 different linages get the same substitutions independently. (same substitutios = same mutatios)
"A homoplasy defines when the same substitution occurs multiple times independently in separate evolutionary lineages
1"
So according to the article bats and dolphins had the same substitutions at the same nucleotides from the same genes……..there is no question about this
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Wow.
leroy
Well-Known Member
So let’s make a summary of your arguemnts
1 convergent necessarily means “not the same” (my reply: you never supported that assertion)
2 Locus doesn’t mean the same Spot (my reply: yes sometimes it does mean same spot (same nucleotide) as was shown by my source……..
3 If my interpretation of the article is true, then evolution would be falsified, (my reply: so what? arguments are not wrong just because you don’t like the implications, besides only your own personal and ignorant interpretation of the TOE would be falsified, the current model can account for this type of discordances
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, that has been supported. Do you really need a source that tells you that a dolphin is different from a shark and that both are different from a mosasaur? If you want to admit to being that ignorant I will gladly show you that they are not the same.
That was supported yesterday. And once again, the context told you that your interpretation was wrong.
Now you are quote mining. You know better than that. Try again.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Go get your original article and link it again.
leroy
Well-Known Member
Genome-wide signatures of convergent evolution in echolocating mammals - Nature
By analysing genomic sequences in echolocating mammals it is shown that convergence is not a rare process restricted to a handful of loci but is instead widespread, continuously distributed and commonly driven by natural selection acting on a small number of sites per locus; analyses involved...
vv
leroy
Well-Known Member
No it was not supported, even by your own admition, you didn’t support it because I was “impolite”
There are many levels/types of convergent evolution, including convergent evolution at the DNA level (same nucleotides)
"Convergence occurs at the level of DNA and the amino acid sequences produced by translating structural genes into proteins. Studies have found convergence in amino acid sequences in echolocating bats and the dolphin;[26] among marine mammals;[27] between giant and red pandas;[28] and between the thylacine and canids.[29] Convergence has also been detected in a type of non-coding DNA, cis-regulatory elements, such as in their rates of evolution; this could indicate either positive selection or relaxed purifying selection.[30][31]
Convergent evolution - Wikipedia
it is interesting that the author of that wiki article also had the same interpretation than me.......... so National geographic AIG and wikipedial all agree with me................ seems like a very evil conspiracy against you-.
"As a sensory adaptation, echolocation has evolved separately in cetaceans (dolphins and whales) and bats, but from the same genetic mutations"Convergent evolution - Wikipedia
"
No I need a source that shows that always and necessarily convergent means “not the same” which is the claim that you made
Yes and you where refuted………. To the point that you have ignored my refutation twice
Last edited:
Pogo
Well-Known Member
ProoftextNo it was not supported, even by your own admition, you didn’t support it because I was “impolite”
There are many levels/types of convergent evolution, including convergent evolution at the DNA level (same nucleotides)
"Convergence occurs at the level of DNA and the amino acid sequences produced by translating structural genes into proteins. Studies have found convergence in amino acid sequences in echolocating bats and the dolphin;[26] among marine mammals;[27] between giant and red pandas;[28] and between the thylacine and canids.[29] Convergence has also been detected in a type of non-coding DNA, cis-regulatory elements, such as in their rates of evolution; this could indicate either positive selection or relaxed purifying selection.[30][31]
Convergent evolution - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
it is interesting that the author of that wiki article also had the same interpretation than me.......... so National geographic AIG and wikipedial all agree with me................ seems like a very evil conspiracy against you-.
"As a sensory adaptation, echolocation has evolved separately in cetaceans (dolphins and whales) and bats, but from the same genetic mutations"Convergent evolution - Wikipedia
"
No I need a source that shows that always and necessarily convergent means “not the same” which is the claim that you made
Yes and you where refuted………. To the point that you have ignored my refutation twice
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For the academic journal, see Prooftexts (journal).
A proof text is a passage of scripture presented as proof for a theological doctrine, belief, or principle.[1] Prooftexting (sometimes "proof-texting" or "proof texting") is the practice of using quotations from a document, either for the purpose of exegesis, or to establish a proposition in eisegesis (introducing one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases). Such quotes may not accurately reflect the original intent of the author,[2] and a document quoted in such a manner, when read as a whole, may not support the proposition for which it was cited.[3][4][5][6] The term has currency primarily in theological and exegetical circles.
Great, now you have learned how to proof text an extremely common fallacy amongst the religious.
Your ignorance and arrogance knows no bounds.
leroy
Well-Known Member
Still waiting Your reply or your admition that echolocation has evolved separately in cetaceans (dolphins and whales) and bats, in part from the same genetic mutations. @Subduction ZoneNo it was not supported, even by your own admition, you didn’t support it because I was “impolite”
There are many levels/types of convergent evolution, including convergent evolution at the DNA level (same nucleotides)
"Convergence occurs at the level of DNA and the amino acid sequences produced by translating structural genes into proteins. Studies have found convergence in amino acid sequences in echolocating bats and the dolphin;[26] among marine mammals;[27] between giant and red pandas;[28] and between the thylacine and canids.[29] Convergence has also been detected in a type of non-coding DNA, cis-regulatory elements, such as in their rates of evolution; this could indicate either positive selection or relaxed purifying selection.[30][31]
Convergent evolution - Wikipedia
it is interesting that the author of that wiki article also had the same interpretation than me.......... so National geographic AIG and wikipedial all agree with me................ seems like a very evil conspiracy against you-.
"As a sensory adaptation, echolocation has evolved separately in cetaceans (dolphins and whales) and bats, but from the same genetic mutations"Convergent evolution - Wikipedia
"
No I need a source that shows that always and necessarily convergent means “not the same” which is the claim that you made
Yes and you where refuted………. To the point that you have ignored my refutation twice
Pogo
Well-Known Member
This is not in question.
This is your assertion that we are waiting for evidence of.
Don't worry, we really don't expect an answer.
Pogo
Well-Known Member
well then you will show us these same sequences of mutations. LOL
Pogo
Well-Known Member
The actual paper that the Wikipedia article refers to which has genetic trees based on the prestin protein which by their very existence disprove your same gene argument.No it was not supported, even by your own admition, you didn’t support it because I was “impolite”
There are many levels/types of convergent evolution, including convergent evolution at the DNA level (same nucleotides)
"Convergence occurs at the level of DNA and the amino acid sequences produced by translating structural genes into proteins. Studies have found convergence in amino acid sequences in echolocating bats and the dolphin;[26] among marine mammals;[27] between giant and red pandas;[28] and between the thylacine and canids.[29] Convergence has also been detected in a type of non-coding DNA, cis-regulatory elements, such as in their rates of evolution; this could indicate either positive selection or relaxed purifying selection.[30][31]
Convergent evolution - Wikipedia
it is interesting that the author of that wiki article also had the same interpretation than me.......... so National geographic AIG and wikipedial all agree with me................ seems like a very evil conspiracy against you-.
"As a sensory adaptation, echolocation has evolved separately in cetaceans (dolphins and whales) and bats, but from the same genetic mutations"Convergent evolution - Wikipedia
"
No I need a source that shows that always and necessarily convergent means “not the same” which is the claim that you made
Yes and you where refuted………. To the point that you have ignored my refutation twice
leroy
Well-Known Member
My mistake I forgot that you don't accept the testimony of scientists in peer reviewed papers as evidence.... So no I don't have evidence
leroy
Well-Known Member
I didn't made a same gene argument.....once again you are lying and making things up
Grateful if you point me to the post where you made whatever argument it is that you made instead.
Or are you merely asserting?
Pogo
Well-Known Member
No you argued the same mutations. It has become very clear that you have no clue what you are actually saying.
leroy
Well-Known Member
Yes same mutations, that is what the article says/implies ...
leroy
Well-Known Member
Te claim is that ancient toothed whales like dolphins and bats had the same mutations independently in genes that are belived to be related to echolocation these utations are called homoplasious substitutions
.......
My support Support ( @Pogo Denies that bats and dolphins suffered from the same mutations...... lets see if he can support his claim)
Articles that support my claim
A wiki article
As a sensory adaptation, echolocation has evolved separately in cetaceans (dolphins and whales) and bats, but from the same genetic mutations"Convergent evolution - Wikipedia
A peer reviewed article
Where homoplasious substitutions do occur these have long been considered the result of neutral processes. However, recent studies have demonstrated that adaptive convergent sequence evolution can be detected in vertebrates using statistical methods that model parallel evolution9,10
Genome-wide signatures of convergent evolution in echolocating mammals - Nature
By analysing genomic sequences in echolocating mammals it is shown that convergence is not a rare process restricted to a handful of loci but is instead widespread, continuously distributed and commonly driven by natural selection acting on a small number of sites per locus; analyses involved...
A National geographic article
The echolocation abilities of bats and whales, though different in their details, rely on the same changes to the same gene – Prestin
Echolocation in bats and whales based on same changes to same gene
The echolocation abilities of bats and whales, though different in their details, rely on the same changes to the same gene – Prestin. This is one of the most dramatic examples yet of ‘convergent evolution’, with physical changes mirrored by genetic ones.
www.nationalgeographic.com