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Rebirth vs Heaven and Hell

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This is an interfaith discussion regarding the comparative moral soundness of
1) Eternal Hell or Heaven after one birth (general Abrahamic view)
2) A rebirth cycle till eventual liberation (general Dharmic view)
Call out to @Link to participate as per mutual understanding. There will be mostly discussion here and others are welcome to participate as well.

Please explain what your specific views are and how it is consistent with a good God or a good moral order of the universe (for views that do not believe in a God).

I will put my own in a bit.
PPL asking for evidence of God or rebirth or heaven...this thread is not for you. Cheers.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

Thanks for the thread.

وَلَوْ تَرَىٰ إِذْ وُقِفُوا عَلَى النَّارِ فَقَالُوا يَا لَيْتَنَا نُرَدُّ وَلَا نُكَذِّبَ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّنَا وَنَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ | Were you to see when they are brought to a halt by the Fire, whereupon they will say, ‘If only we were sent back [into the world]! Then we will not deny the signs of our Lord, and we will be among the faithful!’ | Al-An'aam : 27

بَلْ بَدَا لَهُمْ مَا كَانُوا يُخْفُونَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۖ وَلَوْ رُدُّوا لَعَادُوا لِمَا نُهُوا عَنْهُ وَإِنَّهُمْ لَكَاذِبُونَ | Indeed, what they used to hide before has now become evident to them. But were they to be sent back they would revert to what they were forbidden, and they are indeed liars. | Al-An'aam : 28

These verses I believe bring up an issue. If a soul breaks the covenant the first time when it was on a clean slate, will it be able to be truthful in the next promise? I think the Quran is arguing, they now have been corrupted and are of a lying nature so will not be able to be true anymore.

وَأَنْذِرِ النَّاسَ يَوْمَ يَأْتِيهِمُ الْعَذَابُ فَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا رَبَّنَا أَخِّرْنَا إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ قَرِيبٍ نُجِبْ دَعْوَتَكَ وَنَتَّبِعِ الرُّسُلَ ۗ أَوَلَمْ تَكُونُوا أَقْسَمْتُمْ مِنْ قَبْلُ مَا لَكُمْ مِنْ زَوَالٍ | Warn the people of the day when the punishment will overtake them, whereat the wrongdoers will say, ‘Our Lord! Respite us for a short time so that we may respond to Your call and follow the apostles.’ [They will be told,] ‘Did you not swear before? There is no reverse for you, | Ibrahim : 44

If they broke the promise the first time, how will they not do it again when they are going with a more lying nature the second time around?

The mechanism that a soul learns to prevent it from future mistakes, doesn't make sense to me. This is because the soul on the clean slate had a better covenant and knowledge and has better chances of getting it right.

The way I see it is that death is a pressure cooker. With forever results, you have to get it right the first time and this makes life infinitely more meaningful. This is because these moments will have forever consequences or rewards. Think of school. If they didn't put pressure to hand in assignments on time, would people do them in a orderly manner?

With the pressure of forever reward or forever punishment, life is very important to get things right. Although not all souls will get it right, there is better chances for souls to get it right than to give forever time to get it right.

The other issue is - is it fair to good souls that their end result is the same as oppressors and evil people? God giving the same end result, is that fair and just?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
What the heck is moral soundness and why should that determine what happens after death, particularly given that it seems to have precious little to do with how one dies?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The nature of evil is not like shows or cartoons or movies, where the Villain knows he is evil. Per Quran, disbelievers think they are good:

الَّذِينَ تَتَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ ظَالِمِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ ۖ فَأَلْقَوُا السَّلَمَ مَا كُنَّا نَعْمَلُ مِنْ سُوءٍ ۚ بَلَىٰ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ | —Those whom the angels take away while they were wronging themselves. Thereat they offer submission/peace: ‘We were not doing any evil!’ ‘Yes, indeed Allah knows best what you used to do! | An-Nahl : 28

أَلَا إِنَّهُمْ هُمُ الْمُفْسِدُونَ وَلَٰكِنْ لَا يَشْعُرُونَ | Behold! They are themselves the agents of corruption/mischief, but they are not aware. | Al-Baqara : 12


So a soul that deceives itself and has been corrupted by evil deeds, that soul will revert to deceiving itself. The best bet was when the soul was on a clean slate:

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِنْ بَنِي آدَمَ مِنْ ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَىٰ أَنْفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ ۖ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ ۛ شَهِدْنَا ۛ أَنْ تَقُولُوا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَٰذَا غَافِلِينَ | When your Lord took from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their descendants and made them bear witness over themselves, [He said to them,] ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They said, ‘Yes indeed! We bear witness.’ [This,] lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, ‘Indeed we were unaware of this,’ | Al-A'raaf : 172
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Salam

Thanks for the thread.

وَلَوْ تَرَىٰ إِذْ وُقِفُوا عَلَى النَّارِ فَقَالُوا يَا لَيْتَنَا نُرَدُّ وَلَا نُكَذِّبَ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّنَا وَنَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ | Were you to see when they are brought to a halt by the Fire, whereupon they will say, ‘If only we were sent back [into the world]! Then we will not deny the signs of our Lord, and we will be among the faithful!’ | Al-An'aam : 27

بَلْ بَدَا لَهُمْ مَا كَانُوا يُخْفُونَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۖ وَلَوْ رُدُّوا لَعَادُوا لِمَا نُهُوا عَنْهُ وَإِنَّهُمْ لَكَاذِبُونَ | Indeed, what they used to hide before has now become evident to them. But were they to be sent back they would revert to what they were forbidden, and they are indeed liars. | Al-An'aam : 28

These verses I believe bring up an issue. If a soul breaks the covenant the first time when it was on a clean slate, will it be able to be truthful in the next promise? I think the Quran is arguing, they now have been corrupted and are of a lying nature so will not be able to be true anymore.

وَأَنْذِرِ النَّاسَ يَوْمَ يَأْتِيهِمُ الْعَذَابُ فَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا رَبَّنَا أَخِّرْنَا إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ قَرِيبٍ نُجِبْ دَعْوَتَكَ وَنَتَّبِعِ الرُّسُلَ ۗ أَوَلَمْ تَكُونُوا أَقْسَمْتُمْ مِنْ قَبْلُ مَا لَكُمْ مِنْ زَوَالٍ | Warn the people of the day when the punishment will overtake them, whereat the wrongdoers will say, ‘Our Lord! Respite us for a short time so that we may respond to Your call and follow the apostles.’ [They will be told,] ‘Did you not swear before? There is no reverse for you, | Ibrahim : 44

If they broke the promise the first time, how will they not do it again when they are going with a more lying nature the second time around?

The mechanism that a soul learns to prevent it from future mistakes, doesn't make sense to me. This is because the soul on the clean slate had a better covenant and knowledge and has better chances of getting it right.

The way I see it is that death is a pressure cooker. With forever results, you have to get it right the first time and this makes life infinitely more meaningful. This is because these moments will have forever consequences or rewards. Think of school. If they didn't put pressure to hand in assignments on time, would people do them in a orderly manner?

With the pressure of forever reward or forever punishment, life is very important to get things right. Although not all souls will get it right, there is better chances for souls to get it right than to give forever time to get it right.

The other issue is - is it fair to good souls that their end result is the same as oppressors and evil people? God giving the same end result, is that fair and just?
I will make two introductory problems that I see, before presenting a Hindu viewpoint on the matter.
1) A parent asks child to not put finger on the fire. But the child does and get burnt. It is far more probable now that the child will knowingly put his hands on the fire because of the suffering he felt due to this experience. So, it seems to me that a rebirth after suffering punishment for deeds of the past life is highly likely to cause the person to do better next time around. The reason one gives punishment (like a prison sentence or a fine etc) for an evil action is to have this effect, so that the next time he does not do it. Knowing the consequences first hand does cause one to do better. So the Qurans explanation does not make sense to me.
2) Any evil action done by a person is of finite and temporary nature. At best he causes pain for a finite number of moments or causes the death of a body. The soul cannot be touched by him. So even with an "eye-for-eye" kind of retributive punishment system, it makes no sense to have an infinite punishment duration for a finite crime. So eternal hell becomes unjust even if it is pre-warned.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I will make two introductory problems that I see, before presenting a Hindu viewpoint on the matter.
1) A parent asks child to not put finger on the fire. But the child does and get burnt. It is far more probable now that the child will knowingly put his hands on the fire because of the suffering he felt due to this experience. So, it seems to me that a rebirth after suffering punishment for deeds of the past life is highly likely to cause the person to do better next time around. The reason one gives punishment (like a prison sentence or a fine etc) for an evil action is to have this effect, so that the next time he does not do it. Knowing the consequences first hand does cause one to do better. So the Qurans explanation does not make sense to me.
2) Any evil action done by a person is of finite and temporary nature. At best he causes pain for a finite number of moments or causes the death of a body. The soul cannot be touched by him. So even with an "eye-for-eye" kind of retributive punishment system, it makes no sense to have an infinite punishment duration for a finite crime. So eternal hell becomes unjust even if it is pre-warned.
Salam

(1) If the memory is 100% on it, then it's pure fear of it. If the memory is effect on the soul type as far I can tell people don't recall hell here in this world, then the contention that its of a corrupt lying nature still applies.

(2) We are linked to an eternal being. Time is finite, but our actions are linked to the eternal being. Morality is itself created from light of eternality and is not temporal in nature.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Salam

Thanks for the thread.

وَلَوْ تَرَىٰ إِذْ وُقِفُوا عَلَى النَّارِ فَقَالُوا يَا لَيْتَنَا نُرَدُّ وَلَا نُكَذِّبَ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّنَا وَنَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ | Were you to see when they are brought to a halt by the Fire, whereupon they will say, ‘If only we were sent back [into the world]! Then we will not deny the signs of our Lord, and we will be among the faithful!’ | Al-An'aam : 27

بَلْ بَدَا لَهُمْ مَا كَانُوا يُخْفُونَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۖ وَلَوْ رُدُّوا لَعَادُوا لِمَا نُهُوا عَنْهُ وَإِنَّهُمْ لَكَاذِبُونَ | Indeed, what they used to hide before has now become evident to them. But were they to be sent back they would revert to what they were forbidden, and they are indeed liars. | Al-An'aam : 28

These verses I believe bring up an issue. If a soul breaks the covenant the first time when it was on a clean slate, will it be able to be truthful in the next promise? I think the Quran is arguing, they now have been corrupted and are of a lying nature so will not be able to be true anymore.

وَأَنْذِرِ النَّاسَ يَوْمَ يَأْتِيهِمُ الْعَذَابُ فَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا رَبَّنَا أَخِّرْنَا إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ قَرِيبٍ نُجِبْ دَعْوَتَكَ وَنَتَّبِعِ الرُّسُلَ ۗ أَوَلَمْ تَكُونُوا أَقْسَمْتُمْ مِنْ قَبْلُ مَا لَكُمْ مِنْ زَوَالٍ | Warn the people of the day when the punishment will overtake them, whereat the wrongdoers will say, ‘Our Lord! Respite us for a short time so that we may respond to Your call and follow the apostles.’ [They will be told,] ‘Did you not swear before? There is no reverse for you, | Ibrahim : 44

If they broke the promise the first time, how will they not do it again when they are going with a more lying nature the second time around?

The mechanism that a soul learns to prevent it from future mistakes, doesn't make sense to me. This is because the soul on the clean slate had a better covenant and knowledge and has better chances of getting it right.

The way I see it is that death is a pressure cooker. With forever results, you have to get it right the first time and this makes life infinitely more meaningful. This is because these moments will have forever consequences or rewards. Think of school. If they didn't put pressure to hand in assignments on time, would people do them in a orderly manner?

With the pressure of forever reward or forever punishment, life is very important to get things right. Although not all souls will get it right, there is better chances for souls to get it right than to give forever time to get it right.

The other issue is - is it fair to good souls that their end result is the same as oppressors and evil people? God giving the same end result, is that fair and just?
Clarification To other Hindus:- I will speak here mostly from the point of view of the Visista-Advaita theology as rebirth is easier to understand from the pov.

I will be using the Gita to explain the relationship between rebirth, heaven and hell in Hindu theology.

First let us look at happens to the beings who are virtuous without becoming fully enlightened.

Those who know the three Vedas (scriptures),
the soma drinkers, those whose evils are
cleansed,
Worship Me with sacrifices and seek
to go to heaven.
They, attaining the pure world of the
Lord of the gods,
Enjoy in heaven the gods' celestial
pleasures .

Having enjoyed the vast world of
heaven,
They enter the world of mortals when
their merit is exhausted.
Thus confonning to the law of the
three Vedas,
Desiring enjoyments, they obtain
the state of going and returning.


Those who are devoted to the gods go
to the gods;
Those who are devoted to the ancestors
go the the ancestors;
Those who are devoted to the spirits
go to the spirits;

Here the thought is that people who have been good and pious have done a finite amount of good through their actions and hence, according to justice, receive a finite amount of reward in heavens and closeness with the gods (in Islams these would appx be angelic forces that oversee the world) before returning back to the mortal further for further development of their character and wisdom.

The nature of birth differs based on the character of the person, which in turn is determined by his actions. It is possible to progress or regress based on the free willed choices and actions one does. So an evil person will be reborn in conditions of greater ignorance, delusion and suffering due to his actions. The mediocre will stay mediocre.

When an embodied being goes to
dissolution (death)
Under the dominance of sattva (virtue),
Then he attains the stainless worlds (heavens)
Of those who know the highest.
He who goes to dissolution (death)
when rajas (selfish action) is dominant,
Is reborn among those attached to
action;
Likewise, dissolved (dying) when
tamas (delusion and evil) is dominant,
He is reborn from the wombs of the
deluded.
From sattva knowledge is bom,
And from rajas desire;
Negligence and delusion arise
From tamas, and ignorance too.
Those established in sattva go upward;
The rajasic stay in the middle;
The tamasic, established in the lowestquality,
Go downward.


But this does not mean that the cycle is endless for a being. For there is a state of wisdom that is higher than virtue and piety (sattva)

When the seer perceives
No doer other than the three qualities (sattva-rajas-tamas),
And knows that which is higher than the qualities,
He attains My being.
When an embodied being transcends
These three qualities, which are
the source of the body,
Released from birth, death, old age, and pain,
He attains immortality.
To whom pain and pleasure are equal,
who dwells solely in the (Great) Self (Atman),
To whom a clod, a stone, and gold are the same,
To whom the loved and the unloved
are alike, who is steadfast,
To whom blame and praise of himself
are alike.
To whom honor and dishonor are
equal,
Dispassionate toward the side of
friend or foe,
Renouncing all (goal-seeking) undertakings
He is said to transcend the qualities.
And he who serves Me
With the yoga of unswerving devotion,
Transcending these qualities,
Is ready for absorption in Brahman.


So this is the overall system according to the Gita in brief.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What the heck is moral soundness and why should that determine what happens after death, particularly given that it seems to have precious little to do with how one dies?
Is the structure of afterlife/rebirth such that principles of morality and justice are preserved in various religious theologies? That is the question.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
"Before your soul descended to this world, it was determined she would succeed. If not in this lifetime, then in another, or yet another-eventually she will fulfill her entire mission. And in each lifetime, she will move further ahead. It was this knowledge that conceived her. It was this inspiration that brought the world to be. It is this vision of her success that lies at the essence of all things."
Rabbi Tzvi Freeman (Kabbalah Judaism)

"I am a red man. If the Great Spirit had desired me to be a white man he would have made me so in the first place. He put in your heart certain wishes and plans, in my heart he put other and
different desires. Each man is good in his
sight. It is not necessary for Eagles to be
Crows."
Sitting Bull (An Indigenous American)

"The purpose of life is not to be happy. It is to be useful, to be honorable, to be
compassionate, to have it make some difference that you have lived and lived well."
Ralph Waldo Emerson (Unitarian Christian)

Don't search for Heaven and Hell in the future. Both are now present.
Whenever we manage to love without
expectations, calculations, negotiations. We are indeed in Heaven.
Whenever we fight, hate, we are in Hell.
Unknown

I read and concur with many variations of theology that have certain connections that I do not feel us attainable in only one earth life. And I do believe our Creator has a purpose for us to achieve, therefore we are born again until we have succeeded.
Screenshot_20231211_141606_Facebook.jpg
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Salam

(1) If the memory is 100% on it, then it's pure fear of it. If the memory is effect on the soul type as far I can tell people don't recall hell here in this world, then the contention that its of a corrupt lying nature still applies.

(2) We are linked to an eternal being. Time is finite, but our actions are linked to the eternal being. Morality is itself created from light of eternality and is not temporal in nature.
I believe (in a rebirth paradigm) people's past experiences exist in their unconscious nature. What we call conscience is something we are gaining from such past life, heaven hell experiences.

Your second point is not clear to me. Our actions do not have eternal consequences as they lie within the material universe. This is common experience. If you are saying something different, I need deeper justification. Action-Consequence chain is, by its very nature, within time and hence finite in duration.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
This is an interfaith discussion regarding the comparative moral soundness of
1) Eternal Hell or Heaven after one birth (general Abrahamic view)
2) A rebirth cycle till eventual liberation (general Dharmic view)
Call out to @Link to participate as per mutual understanding. There will be mostly discussion here and others are welcome to participate as well.

Please explain what your specific views are and how it is consistent with a good God or a good moral order of the universe (for views that do not believe in a God).

I will put my own in a bit.
PPL asking for evidence of God or rebirth or heaven...this thread is not for you. Cheers.
Any willfully evil person should necessarily lose that which they willfully abuse. Absence of life benefits abused is a worthy punishment.

The ultimate goal of justice that is just is to conquer the evil heart and let all goodness prevail. To leave the evil in a condition of moral depravity for all of eternity is contrary to what life is all about. If becoming worse they should receive worse. In repentance they should gain the better as to their ability to deserve it.

No one should take more than they themselves deserve unless they are prepared to give others as they deserve.

Eternal hell without end is absolutely disgusting. Eternal hell with the aims of ending evil in the hearts of evil people is to the glory of life and the living.

If everyone gets what they deserve then justice will change anyone eventually to what is good.

So if life is eternal then eventually eternal life would be universal if justice deserved is met.

To me life is about benevolence as deserved.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe (in a rebirth paradigm) people's past experiences exist in their unconscious nature. What we call conscience is something we are gaining from such past life, heaven hell experiences.

Your second point is not clear to me. Our actions do not have eternal consequences as they lie within the material universe. This is common experience. If you are saying something different, I need deeper justification. Action-Consequence chain is, by its very nature, within time and hence finite in duration.
Salam

The consequences are finite to some degree. If it leads other astray, it can be more than that. However, deeds are judged inwardly, and that state is linked to eternal morality. Therefore even though the consequences of hate outwardly is that friends of God for example will not be harmed by it, the intention is something that is towards eternal light of God making it of a transcendent nature beyond time and that hate cannot be forgiven.

As the light of God is in his chosen, hating them is in a way hating God.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Salam

The consequences are finite to some degree. If it leads other astray, it can be more than that. However, deeds are judged inwardly, and that state is linked to eternal morality. Therefore even though the consequences of hate outwardly is that friends of God for example will not be harmed by it, the intention is something that is towards eternal light of God making it of a transcendent nature beyond time and that hate cannot be forgiven.

As the light of God is in his chosen, hating them is in a way hating God.
I will comment on this after I hear your reactions to the rebirth theology of the Gita that I presented.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I will comment on this after I hear your reactions to the rebirth theology of the Gita that I presented.
Sounds good, tonight I put all bets it's the night of value (layatal Qadr). So I will respond tomorrow inshallah.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
This is an interfaith discussion regarding the comparative moral soundness of
1) Eternal Hell or Heaven after one birth (general Abrahamic view)
2) A rebirth cycle till eventual liberation (general Dharmic view)
I do not think moral soundness is involved in rebirth, Heaven and hell. These are beliefs in different religious systems.
The other issue is - is it fair to good souls that their end result is the same as oppressors and evil people? God giving the same end result, is that fair and just?
End results are not the same. A rebirth in Dharmic religions comes after a stay in heaven for good deeds and a stay in hell for bad deeds. So, the chance to improve is given after the person has suffered hell for his bad deeds. Your unfamiliarity with Dharmic religions is noted.
Is the structure of afterlife/rebirth such that principles of morality and justice are preserved in various religious theologies? That is the question.
Well, 'dharma' (duty) is eternal (Sanatan). The principles of 'dharma' do not change (according to Hindu thought) even after the dissolutions of the universe. They go on to the next universe.
 
Last edited:

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
End results are not the same. A rebirth in Dharmic religions comes after a stay in heaven for good deeds and a stay in hell for bad deeds. So, the chance to improve is given after the person has suffered hell for his bad deeds. Your unfamiliarity with Dharmic religions is noted.
Thanks. It doesn't change my point because I'm looking at it from the end point of view. All souls get to paradise at the end of it, not right away I understand, but at the end good and evil souls all get to paradise. I'm talking about how I feel that is unjust.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Clarification To other Hindus:- I will speak here mostly from the point of view of the Visista-Advaita theology as rebirth is easier to understand from the pov.

I will be using the Gita to explain the relationship between rebirth, heaven and hell in Hindu theology.

First let us look at happens to the beings who are virtuous without becoming fully enlightened.

Those who know the three Vedas (scriptures),
the soma drinkers, those whose evils are
cleansed,
Worship Me with sacrifices and seek
to go to heaven.
They, attaining the pure world of the
Lord of the gods,
Enjoy in heaven the gods' celestial
pleasures .

Having enjoyed the vast world of
heaven,
They enter the world of mortals when
their merit is exhausted.
Thus confonning to the law of the
three Vedas,
Desiring enjoyments, they obtain
the state of going and returning.


Those who are devoted to the gods go
to the gods;
Those who are devoted to the ancestors
go the the ancestors;
Those who are devoted to the spirits
go to the spirits;

Here the thought is that people who have been good and pious have done a finite amount of good through their actions and hence, according to justice, receive a finite amount of reward in heavens and closeness with the gods (in Islams these would appx be angelic forces that oversee the world) before returning back to the mortal further for further development of their character and wisdom.

The nature of birth differs based on the character of the person, which in turn is determined by his actions. It is possible to progress or regress based on the free willed choices and actions one does. So an evil person will be reborn in conditions of greater ignorance, delusion and suffering due to his actions. The mediocre will stay mediocre.

When an embodied being goes to
dissolution (death)
Under the dominance of sattva (virtue),
Then he attains the stainless worlds (heavens)
Of those who know the highest.
He who goes to dissolution (death)
when rajas (selfish action) is dominant,
Is reborn among those attached to
action;
Likewise, dissolved (dying) when
tamas (delusion and evil) is dominant,
He is reborn from the wombs of the
deluded.
From sattva knowledge is bom,
And from rajas desire;
Negligence and delusion arise
From tamas, and ignorance too.
Those established in sattva go upward;
The rajasic stay in the middle;
The tamasic, established in the lowestquality,
Go downward.


But this does not mean that the cycle is endless for a being. For there is a state of wisdom that is higher than virtue and piety (sattva)

When the seer perceives
No doer other than the three qualities (sattva-rajas-tamas),
And knows that which is higher than the qualities,
He attains My being.
When an embodied being transcends
These three qualities, which are
the source of the body,
Released from birth, death, old age, and pain,
He attains immortality.
To whom pain and pleasure are equal,
who dwells solely in the (Great) Self (Atman),
To whom a clod, a stone, and gold are the same,
To whom the loved and the unloved
are alike, who is steadfast,
To whom blame and praise of himself
are alike.
To whom honor and dishonor are
equal,
Dispassionate toward the side of
friend or foe,
Renouncing all (goal-seeking) undertakings
He is said to transcend the qualities.
And he who serves Me
With the yoga of unswerving devotion,
Transcending these qualities,
Is ready for absorption in Brahman.


So this is the overall system according to the Gita in brief.
I understand evil people will have to go through more challenges, but at the end, they reach the same destination as the good and highest of virtue let alone the mediocre. I feel this is unjust that they all end up in the same destination. It makes life almost meaningless.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I guess what would puzzle me about reincarnation is that the number of lifeforms on the earth fluctuates. So when that number us low, where are those 'souls' in waiting?

Also, does this process include life forms elsewhere in the universe?

And if we do not reincarnate, where are all the 'new' souls coming from? And why is the number always Increasing?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I understand evil people will have to go through more challenges, but at the end, they reach the same destination as the good and highest of virtue let alone the mediocre. I feel this is unjust that they all end up in the same destination. It makes life almost meaningless.
I do not find it unjust at all. People are not permanently evil as that denies their free will. As long as they suffer the consequences of evil actions they have done and reform their ways, what possible morally justified reason can there be of not allowing them to attain the same goal after that? Our Justice system also operates on the same principle. Once he has served due time and if he follows the law after that, he is a normal citizen with the same right as one who has never done any crime.
Furthermore, Islam itself says that repenting and returning to the correct path after doing wrong makes a person fit for heaven in this life. So why not extend the same facility over multiple lives?
Further it is not as if the person is not suffering for his bad actions. He does. As the Gita says:-

Hypocrisy, arrogance, pride,
Anger, insolence, And ignorance,
are the endowment of those born

To a demoniacal destiny, Arjuna.
Demoniacal men do not understand

When to act and when to refrain from action.
Neither purity, nor good conduct,
Nor truth is found in them.
These men of lost souls, of small intelligence,
And of cruel actions, come forth as enemies
Of the world for its destruction.
Attached to insatiable desire,

Full of hypocrisy, arrogance, and pride,
Having accepted false notions through delusion,
They work with unclean resolves,
Clinging to immeasurable Anxiety,
ending only in death,
With gratification of desire as their highest aim, Convinced that this is all;
Bound by a hundred snares of hope,

Devoted to desire and anger,
They seek to obtain, by unjust means,
Hoards of wealth for the gratification of their desires.


Led astray by many imaginings,
Enveloped in a net of delusion,

Attached to the gratification of desires,
They fall into a foul hell.
Clinging to egotism, force, insolence,

Desire, and anger,
Those malicious people hate Me
In their own and others' bodies.
Those cruel haters,
The worst of men,
I constantly hurl
Into the wombs of demons
In the cycles of rebirth.
Having entered the wombs of demons,
Those who are deluded, not attaining Me

In birth after birth, Arjuna,
From there go to a condition still lower than that.
This is the threefold gate of hell,

Destructive of the self: Desire, anger, and greed. Therefore one should abandon these three.

So hell exists and an evil person is bound to be reborn in these worlds as long he/she continues to cling on to these evil delusions. But renounce it through free will, and path out of this suffering remains open...birth after birth.

Why is this not a just as well as compassionate system?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I guess what would puzzle me about reincarnation is that the number of lifeforms on the earth fluctuates. So when that number us low, where are those 'souls' in waiting?

Also, does this process include life forms elsewhere in the universe?

And if we do not reincarnate, where are all the 'new' souls coming from? And why is the number always Increasing?
It is thought to include all of the material multiverse and other transmaterial universes as well. Reality is thought to be like a onion with hundreds of different dimensional layers, and beings move through these various layers as per their actions and abilities.
 
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