Satan as a force or current....

[raymkoak]

Satanism, in my view, is an itelligent, educated, realistic way of living life while keeping the door to the possibility of the existence of a "spiritual" realm open. Atheistic Satanism doesn't make much sense to me because, as Satanists, we are encouraged to be deep thinking, rational, and intelligent people. How is it rational to completely discount the "possibility" of the existence of any deity? One can't know that there isn't one, much like one can't know that there is one. Satanists may serve themselves better by keeping an open mind. This doesn't mean you have to grovel to anyone or anything (many of us Theistic Satanists do not grovel whatsoever), it simply means that as a logical person, one should realize that it is illogicall to make absolute claims. Same goes for atheists. You can't say that god doesn't exist, just like the xian can't say that god does exist. Neither of you "know", therefore it is unfair and illogical to make those claims. Many people may "feel" one way or the other, but they do not "know". And if there is someone out there who does claim to "know", it would be unverifiable. So, let's stay reasonable, let's play on the same team the way we're supposed to, and let's allow ourselves to learn from one another.

 

[Octavia156]

I don't believe Satanism has ever offered a Spiritual realm though.... Its atheistic by nature isn't it?

You ought to look into Setianism or Thelema if you're looking for a deeper understanding of existance.

 

[Adramelek]

You ought to look into Setianism or Thelema if you're looking for a deeper understanding of existance.

My words exactly Octavia. As most of you know I am personally convinced in the existence of the "Prince of Darkness" as a very real ancient, intelligent, sentient Life Force or Form within the Universe who entrusted to that which has become humankind the dignity of consciousness and the ability to think abstractly; who enshrined in us the Will to Come Into Being.

Throughout the centuries mankind has given this Dark Entity many names and semblances such as Set, Satan, Lucifer, Prometheus, Typhon, etc, and so forth. All of which are reflections of certain aspects of this mysterious Entity and the Powers of Darkness. Set= The Seperator (by infusing within man the Gift of Self-Awareness He/It set us apart as metaphysically distinct Beings). Set was also known as the Slayer or Disruptor of the Cosmic Stasis, Satan/Lucifer= The Adversary against the resistance of the Cosmic Stasis i.e. "God" against Magical Creation, Prometheus who gave man the forbidden knowledge of fire.

I am not of the mind that these different god-forms or Daimons actually exist in and of themselves, but again, they are rather symbolic reflections of That which is also known as the Highest of Life and the Ageless Intelligence of this Universe, who I personally know as the Egyptian Set for Magical reasons. Others, however, prefer to call Him/It by the Hebrew name Satan while others know Him/It by the name Lucifer, just as I did those many years ago until I first invoked the Name of Set and experienced such a life altering presence I chose on that night of nights to swear my eternal allegience to the Prince of Darkness in His/Its Setian Form.

"Those who call me the Prince of Darkness do me no dishonor." Set - The Book of Coming Forth by Night

Xeper em Ma'at.
/Adramelek\

 

[raymkoak]

Can you please elaborate a bit on your experience? While I have become of the belief that Satan is more than just symbolic, I have never actally had any experience whatsoever that I could classify as spiritual or even strange. I am learning and searching every day, not because I'm trying to necessarily force myself onto this experience, but rather because Satanism has drawn me to it, almost as if out of nowhere and for no particular reason. I havee never had a religion, per se, nor did I ever care about it. Suddenly, 3 years ago, Satanism just pulled me like a magnet and I've been learning ever since, seemingly drawn to the "spiritual" or theistic side.

 

[Adramelek]

Can you please elaborate a bit on your experience? While I have become of the belief that Satan is more than just symbolic, I have never actally had any experience whatsoever that I could classify as spiritual or even strange. I am learning and searching every day, not because I'm trying to necessarily force myself onto this experience, but rather because Satanism has drawn me to it, almost as if out of nowhere and for no particular reason. I havee never had a religion, per se, nor did I ever care about it. Suddenly, 3 years ago, Satanism just pulled me like a magnet and I've been learning ever since, seemingly drawn to the "spiritual" or theistic side.

All I can tell you is to never lust for results. My experience was very personal, no offence to you, I'd just rather not go into any deeper details about my experience. Perhaps at another time. What I will tell you is that ever since the age of 9 I have been naturally drawn to the "Dark Side".

 

[Gladius Deus Ex]

I don't believe Satanism has ever offered a Spiritual realm though.... Its atheistic by nature isn't it?

You ought to look into Setianism or Thelema if you're looking for a deeper understanding of existance.

Not quite. There is a spiritual side of Satanism but it's mostly touched upon by Luciferians. You might want to look into the term "Self Deification." While Satanists are called to be skeptical of what they experience, remember, everyone's experience is their own which could lead one to believe in a life after death. This is different from what is considered by some "Self delusion." of the right hand path (note that I do not believe Right Hand Path believers are delusional and I mean no disrespect) because a Satanist shouldn't live their life or bet everything on this "possibility." but in the spare time and for your own personal amusement, why not seek to understand the hereafter?

Not to mention spirituality could lead one to understanding themselves better and thereby improving their own lives. So why do you believe that a Satanist is incapable of having a deeper understanding of existance? Again, as long as you're improving yourself and not limiting your freedom there's nothing wrong with exploring spirituality or the afterlife.

*Edit* I would also like to echo Adram's advice. If, say, you believe in "magickal" workings don't just cast spells and sit in your house waiting for something to happen. Do them on the side and strive towards your goals yourself. In other words, don't bet everything on some magickal working or revolve your life around the possibility of the afterlife. Do as much as you can yourself and allow spirituality to be an aid.

 

[Octavia156]

Not to mention spirituality could lead one to understanding themselves better and thereby improving their own lives. So why do you believe that a Satanist is incapable of having a deeper understanding of existance? Again, as long as you're improving yourself and not limiting your freedom there's nothing wrong with exploring spirituality or the afterlife.

I don't think I ever said that 'a Satanist is incapable of having a deeper understanding of existance' what I said was Satanism itself - i.e. the 'religion' Anton Le Vey 'created' does not include any spiritual aspects. Thats not to say that Satanists are incapable for undertsanding a spiritual realm - its more that if they do they are no operating under Satanic ideology, but something additional.

And if you are exploring the concept an 'afterlife' you are clearly not Satanist!

 

[Erebus]

And if you are exploring the concept an 'afterlife' you are clearly not Satanist!

There are several varieties of Satanism besides LaVey's brand. Even so, I don't think the Satanic Bible ever explicitly states that there is no afterlife, rather it says not to waste THIS life hoping for one.
I agree with Gladius, there's nothing wrong with exploring a concept as long as it doesn't negatively impact your life.

 

[Gladius Deus Ex]

I don't think I ever said that 'a Satanist is incapable of having a deeper understanding of existance' what I said was Satanism itself - i.e. the 'religion' Anton Le Vey 'created' does not include any spiritual aspects. Thats not to say that Satanists are incapable for undertsanding a spiritual realm - its more that if they do they are no operating under Satanic ideology, but something additional.

And if you are exploring the concept an 'afterlife' you are clearly not Satanist!

My apologies for misunderstanding you but "Satanism" does not start or end with "LaVey." While I understand that he created Satanism as it is popularly known today but there are many Satanists as well as organizations that consider themselves Satanic with slightly or radically different views to LaVey. Theistic Satanism differs from LaVey's vision on some key points but remains similar in some areas. Theistic Satanism also differs depending on the individual you speak to.

 

[Octavia156]

Wow ok...
Where can I find more info on the Theistic Satanism you follow?


I've found a site that states: a theistic (traditional) Satanist is anyone who reveres Satan as a deity.

Is this where you sit?

 

[Gladius Deus Ex]

Wow ok...
Where can I find more info on the Theistic Satanism you follow?


I've found a site that states: a theistic (traditional) Satanist is anyone who reveres Satan as a deity.

Is this where you sit?

No. I revere no deity other than myself. As for where my particular beliefs come from.. a mixture of LaVey, Luciferian, and some of my own interpretations/ideas. From my observation, Theistic Satanism depends widely on the individual that practices it. There's no, one, universal source of "Theistic Satanism." and it's why it's often dubbed as "Traditional" Satanism. There's no church, universal bible, or anything else of the sort. Which leaves it open for it's practitioners to come with their own observations and ideas. However, it is of my opinion, that those who practice "reverse christianity" aka "Devil Worship." are more "Right Hand." than Left Hand. Of course that's just my opinion and some consider them Theistic Satanists just the same even if they do lean more towards right hand philosophy. Though, if you truly analyze the way I think you'd probably notice that it doesn't vary too far from LaVey. While I consider the possibility of an afterlife possible, I don't dwell on it, nor do I care much for it. The existence or nonexistence of it changes nothing.

 

[Octavia156]

What practises does Theistic Satanism involve?

I ask, as Traditional Satanists as I understood them were the ex-Catholic Occult practioners of the 15th - 19th centuries? These the RHP Theistic Satanists you speak of?

 

[Gladius Deus Ex]

What practises does Theistic Satanism involve?

I ask, as Traditional Satanists as I understood them were the ex-Catholic Occult practioners of the 15th - 19th centuries? These the RHP Theistic Satanists you speak of?

It honestly depends what exactly they practiced and how they practiced it. Remember, I stated that it does vary depending on who you're speaking to. As for my own practices? I've already stated some of my beliefs as well as my views, I don't really understand what it is you're asking? If you're asking for specifics that's a private matter that I don't feel like discussing.

To reiterate, I'm sure some were LHP and some leaned more towards RHP. It depended on how the individual believed and practiced. If they worshiped Satan, followed some forms of religious laws/dogma that weren't crafted by themselves, etc then they probably leaned more towards RHP philosophy. If, on the other hand, they worshiped themselves, sought personal and spiritual freedom, followed no dogma but their own, and stayed true to themselves without conforming to others views/beliefs to fit in then they were definitely LHP. Left handed practitioners also commonly question everything without believing in a universal truth.

Of course this can also lead into a debate on what is and isn't Left Hand and Right Hand philosophy. My understanding of what's considered left hand and right hand could be skewed or wrong but in the end, I believe either or can both be seen as "Theistic Satanism." because "Theistic Satanism." is the belief in Satan as an external force. This is why I believe that there's different forms of Theistic Satanism and why Theistic Satanism widely varies on practitioner.

 

[Octavia156]

Thank you

So you most simple definition of your beliefs is that you belive in Satan as an external force to your own?

May I ask - what is the 'end goal' of Theistic Satanists? ANd how does this differ from LeVeyian Satanism? From what you describe I would have difficulty calling it traditional satanism - as for me tranditional satanism is catholic magic - its Old Aeon Monotheistic thought or worship in which God/Satan is viewed as an external force to ones own.
Modern Satanism is New Aeon Thelemic - Individual centered worship.


I ask about your practises because I wonder which schools of thought Theistic Satanists tend to follow or whether they by definition design their own.

Whats the end goal, and do you intend to get there?

 

[Gladius Deus Ex]

It's pretty similar as the same as LaVeyan. I guess in a sense I'm far more modern than most Theistic Satanists. Like I said, I incorporate a lot of modern views. Such as LaVey, Luciferian, and more. The end goal is self deification, both spiritually and physically and I do intend to get there but I believe it's a process with no real "End." The traditional aspect is the belief that Satan "IS" an external force from my own. One I can relate to and respect but not one I worship. The differences is in belief that there's a possible afterlife, that the force "Satan" really does exist, that spiritual enlightenment/immortality is possible and that self deification may not just be a metaphor but can be quite literal.

However, as I mentioned before, there are Theistic Satanists that are very different from my way of thinking or their practices. Such as ones who do worship Satan. So I guess you can call me a modern Theistic. The reason I use Theistic is because while the Satanic bible leaves it open to interpretation, I do find it highly atheistic. I am also very spiritually inclined even if I am skeptical of the spiritual/supernatural. I understand that this does make it conflicting and confusing.

I can understand how someone may not believe but I have had experiences that lead credence to the possibility. Spiritual advancement does also help in my self improvement, whether it be psychological or supernatural, I don't fully know but find it makes little difference either way. My mind is open but not so much so that I'm a fool who believes anything.

Also like I mentioned before, I don't allow my work on the spiritual to consume me in a negative way on the physical. If I do a magickal working to bring about some result I don't sit around and wait for that result to happen. I do work towards that goal. Magick is an aid but not my primary means of handling things.

So again.. you can call me a modern Theist Satanist but not all of us are.

To reiterate.. Goal is for some form of spiritual immortality or Godhood. Physical and Spiritual freedom. I think you want a little more than this because it's vague so I'll try to go further into detail without giving away MY specific practices too much. I strive to reach a state of enlightenment that will give me what I mentioned above while ensuring that I'll exist after this life is extinguished. I do not believe in the biblical hell that I'll be sent to suffer for all eternity because my ancient ancestors ate some fruit that they were told not to.

 

[Octavia156]

So you are a practising magician who calls himself a Theistic Satanist.. good to meet you brother from another mother

I wonder what system of magick you use?

 

[Gladius Deus Ex]

So you are a practising magician who calls himself a Theistic Satanist.. good to meet you brother from another mother

I wonder what system of magick you use?

I use a mix of different systems. From Chaos Magick to Ceremonial Magick, to Witchcraft, and more. I even use my own brand of "Candle Magick." I pretty much incorporate whatever has managed to work for me in the past, while exploring new things. I also use a lot of methods from Michael W. Ford's works when it comes to self deification. Nice to meet you too.

 

[Soulless]

I use a mix of different systems. From Chaos Magick to Ceremonial Magick, to Witchcraft, and more. I even use my own brand of "Candle Magick." I pretty much incorporate whatever has managed to work for me in the past, while exploring new things. I also use a lot of methods from Michael W. Ford's works when it comes to self deification. Nice to meet you too.

^ just asking , when you are using magic are you dealing with demons ?

 

[Octavia156]

I use a mix of different systems. From Chaos Magick to Ceremonial Magick, to Witchcraft, and more. I even use my own brand of "Candle Magick." I pretty much incorporate whatever has managed to work for me in the past, while exploring new things. I also use a lot of methods from Michael W. Ford's works when it comes to self deification. Nice to meet you too.

Ever read any Crowley?

 

[Octavia156]

^ just asking , when you are using magic are you dealing with demons ?

Sometimes, for some magicians..

The most famous system that works with Demons is The Goetia or The Lesser Key of Solomon.
When a magician uses the Goetia he 'evokes' (calls forth into manifestation) what are called 'demons' - or lower parts of the psyche.

The existential reality of these demons depends on your Aeonic point of view.

The other side of this school is the Greater Key of Solomon which works with Angels or the Higher parts of the Soul.
These rituals are of 'invoking' (drawing into oneself) higher planetary energies.

Both schools require a high degree of competancy in ceremonial magick and qabala to accomplish true success.