Sex, Gender, Expression, Attraction; some definitions (?)

[JDMS]

But you're a convenient and politically advantageous moral panic. Gotta scare the votes outta the simple folk.

Yep. Immigrants were more or less the scapegoat and talking point of the 2016 election, and now we've gone round to trans people. But hey, it's only fair we take our turns, right?

 

[Debater Slayer]

No, they haven't. The "trans" movement is a pernicious zeitgeist and a shibboleth.

An example of what I'm talking about, from the American Psychological Association:

Have transgender people always existed?​

Transgender persons have been documented in many indigenous, Western, and Eastern cultures and societies from antiquity until the present day. However, the meaning of gender nonconformity may vary from culture to culture.

Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity, and gender expression

Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender identity (sense of themselves as male or female) or gender expression differs from socially constructed norms associated with their birth sex. This includes androgynous, bigendered and gender queer people, who tend to see...

www.apa.org

The world doesn't revolve around the US. Just because American politics is currently fixated on trans people doesn't mean other cultures and countries are the same way.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Taking a nod from Confucius, as I do, I thought I'd offer some definitions for debate or agreement. (Taken from GenderBread.org):

Anatomical Sex (sex): Sex (sometimes called biological sex, anatomical sex, or physical sex) is comprised of things like genitals, chromosomes, hormones, body hair, and more. But one thing it’s not: gender.

Gender Identity: Your psychological sense of self. Who you, in your head, know yourself to be, based on how much you align (or don’t align) with what you understand to be the options for gender.

Gender Expression: The ways you present gender, through your actions, clothing, demeanor, and more. Your outward-facing self, and how that’s interpreted by others based on gender norms.

Attraction: Like sex, attraction isn’t really a component of gender. However, we often conflate sexual orientation with gender, or categorize the attraction we experience in gendered ways.

Starting with these definitions:

sex: seems clear, it's biology.
gender identity: This is where a trans person might feel as though they got the wrong body, correct?
gender expression: would a cross dresser be an example? (e.g. a cis male, who dresses as a woman?) not sure!
attraction: I'm guessing this is where gay men and lesbians fit in?

So, any thoughts, corrections?

An Adorable, Accessible Way to Explain a Complicated Concept » The Genderbread Person

What is the purpose of this thread? More specifically, what are you hoping to achieve with it?

The scientific and medical definitions for sex, gender, and gender identity are all readily accessible online, so I'm not sure how or why the opinions of laypeople would change much, if anything, regarding said definitions. Are you trying to explore how people's opinions on sex and gender identity might compare to the expert consensus?

 

[Father Heathen]

Spoken like a true believer and an indoctrinated woke person.

It's adorable how "woke" became a sneering slur for anything conservatives dislike, which includes being educated.

Funny how these differences are only now being discovered and only in certain cultures and countries.

What's funny is your embarrassing display of ignorance.

Transgender history - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Father Heathen]

Yep. Immigrants were more or less the scapegoat and talking point of the 2016 election, and now we've gone round to trans people. But hey, it's only fair we take our turns, right?

Trans people and drag queens (RW yokels too dopey to know the difference) have been around for a very long time, and if they're really the predatory threat they've been portrayed as, then there should be countless records of such crimes to support these claims.

 

[Shaul]

It's adorable how "woke" became a sneering slur for anything conservatives dislike, which includes being educated.

What's funny is your embarrassing display of ignorance.

Transgender history - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sure, buddy. Just like phrenology, eugenics, telegony and "scientific racism"; so too will "Trans" theories be consigned to the dustbin of history. Look at you, appealing to wikipedia as if it was an authoritative source. You are hilarious.

 

[Father Heathen]

Sure, buddy. Just like phrenology, eugenics, telegony and "scientific racism"; so too will "Trans" theories be consigned to the dustbin of history. Look at you, appealing to wikipedia as if it was an authoritative source. You are hilarious.

Not quite as hilarious as clinging to the ancient superstitions of primitive savages. You're not exactly in a position to judge the scientific validity of anything.

 

[Alien826]

But you're a convenient and politically advantageous moral panic. Gotta scare the votes outta the simple folk.

Exactly. Up to a couple of years ago I had not heard of any of this. Then I came across it on a right-wing religious site, where everyone was getting all "shock horror" about it. Later, I started hearing about it from the political area. I then realized that it was the "flavor of the month" subject that was being used to stir up fear and anger in the religious right community.

There was a time when the subject was female suffrage. I'll bet a lot of religion was used to stir up opposition to that. Now, does anyone seriously think women shouldn't be allowed to vote? Sounds silly, doesn't it?

Then it was homosexuality. They lost on that, now it's generally acceptable, same sex marriage is legal and most TV shows have gay couples portrayed. The sky didn't fall.

Now they've moved on to trans people as the villains de jour. It's working for now.

I wonder what they will move on to once most people find out that transphobia is yet another tempest in a teacup?

 

[JDMS]

Exactly. Up to a couple of years ago I had not heard of any of this. Then I came across it on a right-wing religious site, where everyone was getting all "shock horror" about it. Later, I started hearing about it from the political area. I then realized that it was the "flavor of the month" subject that was being used to stir up fear and anger in the religious right community.

There was a time when the subject was female suffrage. I'll bet a lot of religion was used to stir up opposition to that. Now, does anyone seriously think women shouldn't be allowed to vote? Sounds silly, doesn't it?

Then it was homosexuality. They lost on that, now it's generally acceptable, same sex marriage is legal and most TV shows have gay couples portrayed. The sky didn't fall.

Now they've moved on to trans people as the villains de jour. It's working for now.

I wonder what they will move on to once most people find out that transphobia is yet another tempest in a teacup?

Yes, yes and yes. As someone who has read thousands of pages of primary and secondary sources from both sides of the slavery argument, the black rights movement, women's suffrage movement, anti-liquor movement, and the gay rights movement (because of my degree), I can say that this is very typical, and the arguments used against trans people can pretty much be heard verbatim in the writing of folks from 200 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago, etc...

And yeah, there will always be a certain amount of back and forth for other minorities previously plowed through, but eventually their fear mongering won't work nearly as well anymore, and they'll move the primary focus onto someone new.

I'm curious about what group that may be as well.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, they haven't. The "trans" movement is a pernicious zeitgeist and a shibboleth.

Yeah, they have. Take some courses or read some books or something. Geesh.

 

[Father Heathen]

Exactly. Up to a couple of years ago I had not heard of any of this. Then I came across it on a right-wing religious site, where everyone was getting all "shock horror" about it. Later, I started hearing about it from the political area. I then realized that it was the "flavor of the month" subject that was being used to stir up fear and anger in the religious right community.

There was a time when the subject was female suffrage. I'll bet a lot of religion was used to stir up opposition to that. Now, does anyone seriously think women shouldn't be allowed to vote? Sounds silly, doesn't it?

Then it was homosexuality. They lost on that, now it's generally acceptable, same sex marriage is legal and most TV shows have gay couples portrayed. The sky didn't fall.

Now they've moved on to trans people as the villains de jour. It's working for now.

I wonder what they will move on to once most people find out that transphobia is yet another tempest in a teacup?

Considering they've been on the wrong side of history with pretty much everything, you'd think a little light of realization would flicker behind their eyes.

 

[JDMS]

Considering they've been on the wrong side of history with pretty much everything, you'd think a little light of realization would flicker behind their eyes.

That would require them to understand/know history and be capable of self reflection and awareness enough to identify their actions in what they learned. That's a tall order though. What a shame.

 

[Father Heathen]

Yeah, they have. Take some courses or read some books or something. Geesh.

Reading is for libtards. They don't even read their holy texts (that's what religious pundits are for.)

 

[PureX]

Taking a nod from Confucius, as I do, I thought I'd offer some definitions for debate or agreement. (Taken from GenderBread.org):

Anatomical Sex (sex): Sex (sometimes called biological sex, anatomical sex, or physical sex) is comprised of things like genitals, chromosomes, hormones, body hair, and more. But one thing it’s not: gender.

Gender Identity: Your psychological sense of self. Who you, in your head, know yourself to be, based on how much you align (or don’t align) with what you understand to be the options for gender.

Gender Expression: The ways you present gender, through your actions, clothing, demeanor, and more. Your outward-facing self, and how that’s interpreted by others based on gender norms.

Attraction: Like sex, attraction isn’t really a component of gender. However, we often conflate sexual orientation with gender, or categorize the attraction we experience in gendered ways.

Starting with these definitions:

sex: seems clear, it's biology.
gender identity: This is where a trans person might feel as though they got the wrong body, correct?
gender expression: would a cross dresser be an example? (e.g. a cis male, who dresses as a woman?) not sure!
attraction: I'm guessing this is where gay men and lesbians fit in?

So, any thoughts, corrections?

An Adorable, Accessible Way to Explain a Complicated Concept » The Genderbread Person

I think attraction involves both sex and gender, as well as a number of other human characteristics and concepts. And each to varying degrees. Which makes it nearly impossible to define or predict.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Reading is for libtards. They don't even read their holy texts (that's what religious pundits are for.)

Oh, right! My bad.

 

[Alien826]

gender expression: would a cross dresser be an example? (e.g. a cis male, who dresses as a woman?) not sure!

Years ago, I volunteered on a suicide help line. They had educational meetings from time to time, and at one we we introduced to a male cross dresser. A lady asked him if he was gay, and he replied "Oh no, I like women. I find you very attractive."

 

[Kfox]

Yes, yes and yes. As someone who has read thousands of pages of primary and secondary sources from both sides of the slavery argument, the black rights movement, women's suffrage movement, anti-liquor movement, and the gay rights movement (because of my degree), I can say that this is very typical, and the arguments used against trans people can pretty much be heard verbatim in the writing of folks from 200 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago, etc...

And yeah, there will always be a certain amount of back and forth for other minorities previously plowed through, but eventually their fear mongering won't work nearly as well anymore, and they'll move the primary focus onto someone new.

I'm curious about what group that may be as well.

The new will be likely be something unheard of right now. Perhaps trans-abled will be next. There is a thread about it where people who are not handicapped will identify as handicapped and will want to cut off limbs, blind themselves, or other things which will cause them to be handicapped according to how they identify. Gotta admit; it sounds crazy now, but it wasn't long ago when stuff accepted as normal now sounded crazy.

 

[Shaul]

Not quite as hilarious as clinging to the ancient superstitions of primitive savages. You're not exactly in a position to judge the scientific validity of anything.

As a human with critical thinking I am in a position to question everything. Especially pseudo-science spouted by wannabees. My opinion isn't based on any "ancient superstitions"[sic]. So by suggesting they are just demonstrates more of your baseless prattle.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Taking a nod from Confucius, as I do, I thought I'd offer some definitions for debate or agreement. (Taken from GenderBread.org):

Anatomical Sex (sex): Sex (sometimes called biological sex, anatomical sex, or physical sex) is comprised of things like genitals, chromosomes, hormones, body hair, and more. But one thing it’s not: gender.

Gender Identity: Your psychological sense of self. Who you, in your head, know yourself to be, based on how much you align (or don’t align) with what you understand to be the options for gender.

Gender Expression: The ways you present gender, through your actions, clothing, demeanor, and more. Your outward-facing self, and how that’s interpreted by others based on gender norms.

Attraction: Like sex, attraction isn’t really a component of gender. However, we often conflate sexual orientation with gender, or categorize the attraction we experience in gendered ways.

Starting with these definitions:

sex: seems clear, it's biology.
gender identity: This is where a trans person might feel as though they got the wrong body, correct?
gender expression: would a cross dresser be an example? (e.g. a cis male, who dresses as a woman?) not sure!
attraction: I'm guessing this is where gay men and lesbians fit in?

So, any thoughts, corrections?

An Adorable, Accessible Way to Explain a Complicated Concept » The Genderbread Person

I'm going to listen to Lola by the Kinks. See if something formulates.

 

[Kfox]

An example of what I'm talking about, from the American Psychological Association:

Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity, and gender expression

Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender identity (sense of themselves as male or female) or gender expression differs from socially constructed norms associated with their birth sex. This includes androgynous, bigendered and gender queer people, who tend to see...

www.apa.org

The world doesn't revolve around the US. Just because American politics is currently fixated on trans people doesn't mean other cultures and countries are the same way.

But many political issues that begin in America often do seem to spread to the rest of the world.