The Berlin Wall. Were you present when it came down?

[Spiderman]

I'm so glad the Berlin Wall came down. America should have kicked Russia out of East Germany before they got nukes. Especially because Russia attacked Poland when Hitler did. They deserved more than a slap on the wrist.

Was anybody here present physically when the Berlin Wall was coming down?

What was it like?

 

[stvdv]

Yes I was there. There were also quite a few Nazis screaming "Heil Hitler". Strange experience after so many years.

 

[Woberts]

I wasn't there, but my dad was.
Secondly, Russia didn't deserve more than a slap on the wrist.
I'm assuming that I'm in the minority when I say that it shouldn't have come down.
And in regards to what it was like, Dad said that it was one of the most heartbreaking moments in his life.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I'm so glad the Berlin Wall came down. America should have kicked Russia out of East Germany before they got nukes. Especially because Russia attacked Poland when Hitler did. They deserved more than a slap on the wrist.

Was anybody here present physically when the Berlin Wall was coming down?

What was it like?
View attachment 24268

I regret not taking the the option to guard the Berlin wall when I was in the military. I'm part German and Polish. What a combo. *Grin*

I remember the announcement when it was being torn down , it was plastered on the news all over the place. In fact they were selling bits of the wall in collector boxes. To be honest I never thought it would ever come down. I was quite shocked at the time.

 

[Spiderman]

I wasn't there, but my dad was.
Secondly, Russia didn't deserve more than a slap on the wrist.
I'm assuming that I'm in the minority when I say that it shouldn't have come down.
And in regards to what it was like, Dad said that it was one of the most heartbreaking moments in his life.

let's not take into account all the East European nations that Russia occupied and committed crimes against humanity.

let's not take into account that the Soviet Union had a higher kill count than Nazi Germany.

 

[Woberts]

let's not take into account that the Soviet Union had a higher kill count than Nazi Germany.

That's debatable. Many counts include victims of famine, or in some cases (The Black Book of Communism is one) include war related deaths.

 

[stvdv]

let's not take into account all the East European nations that Russia occupied and committed crimes against humanity.

let's not take into account that the Soviet Union had a higher kill count than Nazi Germany.

That's debatable. Many counts include victims of famine, or in some cases (The Black Book of Communism is one) include war related deaths.

I just got a thought. How many death would there be on RF if thoughts in "heated debate related" would have killed?

 

[Jumi]

That's debatable. Many counts include victims of famine, or in some cases (The Black Book of Communism is one) include war related deaths.

Soviets used famine as a weapon, Ukraine is a good example of that.

 

[Jumi]

I wasn't there, but back then people would watch on small TV screens and think that much of world that was awake at the time was present. Peering into small TVs or listening to radio reporting of it... all happening live. Soon after that, the Gulf War where Bush I attacked Iraq to defend Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, was the first war that had that "honor" of people watching live as the thing started.

 

[England my lionheart]

I'm so glad the Berlin Wall came down. America should have kicked Russia out of East Germany before they got nukes. Especially because Russia attacked Poland when Hitler did. They deserved more than a slap on the wrist.

Was anybody here present physically when the Berlin Wall was coming down?

What was it like?
View attachment 24268

I wasn't there but my twin nieces were and they said it was amazing and euphoric, a few years prior to that I was in an nbc suit and gas mask with a full metal jacket waiting for the Russian hordes,I'm glad it came down and the Russians didn't come, it was a mistake to let it go up.

 

[Woberts]

Soviets used famine as a weapon, Ukraine is a good example of that.

I assume you're referring to the Holodomor.
That was a combination of imperialist propaganda and an actual famine.
A natural famine, that is.

 

[England my lionheart]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...wwAXoECAsQEQ&usg=AOvVaw0rGU_onYCY5jA4zZeGcwqH

 

[Jumi]

That was a combination of imperialist propaganda and an actual famine.
A natural famine, that is.

Really? By referring to "imperialist propaganda", I take it that you are a communist and actually believe the Stalinist narratives and propaganda.

Even historians who think it wasn't planned point out that it was a massive failure of the forced collectivisation effort under Stalin where the
professional farmers who were liquidated were replaced by inefficient communist farmers. Compare this to Zimbabwe. There was also that
whole anti-science thing with Lysenkoism.

Quote from wiki if you're unfamiliar with it:

Lysenkoism (Russian: Лысе́нковщина, tr. Lysenkovshchina) was a political campaign conducted by Trofim Lysenko, his followers and Soviet authorities against genetics and science-based agriculture. Lysenko served as the director of the Soviet Union's Lenin All-Union Academy of Agricultural Sciences. Lysenkoism began in the late 1920s and formally ended in 1964.

The pseudo-scientific ideas of Lysenkoism assumed the heritability of acquired characteristics (Lamarckism).[1] Lysenko's theory rejected Mendelian inheritance and the concept of the "gene"; it departed from Darwinian evolutionary theory by rejecting natural selection.[2] Proponents falsely claimed to have discovered, among many other things, that rye could transform into wheat and wheat into barley, that weeds could spontaneously transmute into food grains, and that "natural cooperation" was observed in nature as opposed to "natural selection".[2] Lysenkoism promised extraordinary advances in breeding and in agriculture that never came about.

Joseph Stalin supported the campaign. More than 3,000 mainstream biologists were fired or even sent to prison,[3] and numerous scientists were executed as part of a campaign instigated by Lysenko to suppress his scientific opponents.[4][5][6][7] The president of the Agriculture Academy, Nikolai Vavilov, was sent to prison and died there, while scientific research in the field of genetics was effectively destroyed until the death of Stalin in 1953.[2] Research and teaching in the fields of neurophysiology, cell biology, and many other biological disciplines was also negatively affected or banned.[8]


Of course besides the ridiculous levels of incompetence and pseudo-science, having your food confiscated does contribute to dying now, doesn't it? A natural famine, or caused by stupidity and made worse by wanting to kill of some undesirables.

 

[Stevicus]

Of course besides the ridiculous levels of incompetence and pseudo-science, having your food confiscated does contribute to dying now, doesn't it? A natural famine, or caused by stupidity and made worse by wanting to kill of some undesirables.

Some might have looked at the collectivization and industrialization period as a necessary transformation from a backward agrarian state into a modern industrialized power. It doesn't forgive the atrocities, but it may have also been a way of consolidating state power in the countryside.

There were some wealthy peasant farmers ("kulaks") who seemed incongruous in a classless society. The state set the prices, and many of the peasants refused to accept it, and that's what ostensibly triggered the whole thing. Some of them went so far as to burn their crops, eat their seed grain, slaughter their livestock - just so they could keep it out of the state's hands. That certainly contributed to the famine that followed.

 

[Jumi]

Some might have looked at the collectivization and industrialization period as a necessary transformation from a backward agrarian state into a modern industrialized power. It doesn't forgive the atrocities, but it may have also been a way of consolidating state power in the countryside.

I can imagine Marx is rolling in his grave about the "necessity" of the ridiculous failures in his name. Did you read the bit about Lysenkoism? It wasn't a necessary transformation, but anti-scientific thinking that caused a huge famine. Of course with the Soviets, the blame was never on them, but "enemies". Even Trotskyists got blamed for the famine. You watch people like Trump-fans talk excuses and you compare that to the Soviets, you see the same pattern.

There were some wealthy peasant farmers ("kulaks") who seemed incongruous in a classless society.

They were deemed class-enemies and you know what happened to people like that. There would be the state truth and the real truth. So many "thieves" executed and put to labor camps. It reminds me of another country with enemies... Germany and another moustache hero out to say who "seemed incongruous".

The state set the prices, and many of the peasants refused to accept it, and that's what ostensibly triggered the whole thing. Some of them went so far as to burn their crops, eat their seed grain, slaughter their livestock - just so they could keep it out of the state's hands. That certainly contributed to the famine that followed.

Well that's what the Stalinist would have us believe, but who actually believes them?

Of course when things went south with the counterproductive agricultural reform due to incompetency and optimistic anti-science attitude as well as taking the professionals out to be replaced by party people. What do you expect? Well the Soviet wouldn't accept the blame, but put it on the kulaks. Perhaps someone really "burned their crops", but do you actually believe that it happened on a scale that "triggered it"? Perhaps you believe there was also a good reason to remove the intelligentsia and biologists also?

 

[Spiderman]

I assume you're referring to the Holodomor.
That was a combination of imperialist propaganda and an actual famine.
A natural famine, that is.

You might as well be defending Hitler.

 

[Spiderman]

Really? By referring to "imperialist propaganda", I take it that you are a communist and actually believe the Stalinist narratives and propaganda.

Even historians who think it wasn't planned point out that it was a massive failure of the forced collectivisation effort under Stalin where the
professional farmers who were liquidated were replaced by inefficient communist farmers. Compare this to Zimbabwe. There was also that
whole anti-science thing with Lysenkoism.

Quote from wiki if you're unfamiliar with it:

Lysenkoism (Russian: Лысе́нковщина, tr. Lysenkovshchina) was a political campaign conducted by Trofim Lysenko, his followers and Soviet authorities against genetics and science-based agriculture. Lysenko served as the director of the Soviet Union's Lenin All-Union Academy of Agricultural Sciences. Lysenkoism began in the late 1920s and formally ended in 1964.

The pseudo-scientific ideas of Lysenkoism assumed the heritability of acquired characteristics (Lamarckism).[1] Lysenko's theory rejected Mendelian inheritance and the concept of the "gene"; it departed from Darwinian evolutionary theory by rejecting natural selection.[2] Proponents falsely claimed to have discovered, among many other things, that rye could transform into wheat and wheat into barley, that weeds could spontaneously transmute into food grains, and that "natural cooperation" was observed in nature as opposed to "natural selection".[2] Lysenkoism promised extraordinary advances in breeding and in agriculture that never came about.

Joseph Stalin supported the campaign. More than 3,000 mainstream biologists were fired or even sent to prison,[3] and numerous scientists were executed as part of a campaign instigated by Lysenko to suppress his scientific opponents.[4][5][6][7] The president of the Agriculture Academy, Nikolai Vavilov, was sent to prison and died there, while scientific research in the field of genetics was effectively destroyed until the death of Stalin in 1953.[2] Research and teaching in the fields of neurophysiology, cell biology, and many other biological disciplines was also negatively affected or banned.[8]


Of course besides the ridiculous levels of incompetence and pseudo-science, having your food confiscated does contribute to dying now, doesn't it? A natural famine, or caused by stupidity and made worse by wanting to kill of some undesirables.

Amen! Preach it bro!

 

[Jumi]

Amen! Preach it bro!

No preaching. Stalin messed up agriculture with the anti-evolution ideas and targeted certain groups for liquidation. Problems made for excuses to get rid of undesirables such as class-enemies and scientists.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wasn't there, but I have a cousin who was stationed there (Army, IIRC) when it came down and she sent some pieces of it back home.

 

[Valjean]

I'm so glad the Berlin Wall came down. America should have kicked Russia out of East Germany before they got nukes. Especially because Russia attacked Poland when Hitler did. They deserved more than a slap on the wrist.

Was anybody here present physically when the Berlin Wall was coming down?


View attachment 24268

I wasn't there. Perhaps I'll catch Trump's wall coming down -- it's a lot closer.

Didn't General Patton and PM Churchill consider invading the USSR after Germany's defeat in WWII, Operation Unthinkable, or some such thing?
Would have been a disaster.

let's not take into account all the East European nations that Russia occupied and committed crimes against humanity.

let's not take into account that the Soviet Union had a higher kill count than Nazi Germany.

But for sheer imperial rapaciousness and total direct/indirect body count, though, nothing can beat the US' two centuries of war, annexation, invasion, nation-building and political puppetry.
It's we who now stand astride the world like a Colossus.