Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[It Aint Necessarily So]

What do you imagine God would be if God existed

Like everything else that exists, that god would have a time (now) and place where it could affect other things that exist and be affected by other existing things.

Assuming that wolves exist but that werewolves don't, there are times and places where I could affect a wolf or be affected by one. By contrast, there is nowhere I could be now where I could affect a werewolf or be affected by one.

I assume that by God you mean the god of Abraham. If that god existed, it would be the reason that the universe was formed over six days and why it experienced a global flood.

I am also asked what would be evidence of that god or any other god. The answer is any object or process that is better explained by positing a supernatural agent with magical powers than a godless universe.

If personal satisfaction was my reason for being a Baha'i I'd leave too. I started attending the Baha'i Feasts again last July after a long hiatus. They are boring as heck, but I don't attend to be entertained.

You've written things like that before, but I've never understood why you stick with a god or religion the belief in which doesn't make your life better. In fact, your beliefs seem to make you unhappy. You've said that you wish that you didn't believe what you do, but that you find the words and deeds of the Messenger too compelling to walk away from his claims, words and deeds that I find to be quite human.

As I said, I can't understand that. I can't understand what keeps you in that religion. Find a happy religion if religion is what you want and need. The pagans seem pretty happy. Today is Beltane. "Beltane was a "spring time festival of optimism" during which "fertility ritual again was important, perhaps connecting with the waxing power of the sun"

 

[Trailblazer]

I like the devotional part, but that is short. In the business portion that usually is short in my community, and I look forward to contributing to that more with treasurers' reports and receiving contributions at Feast. l like having a responsibility in the community where I can contribute. There is also the matter of long-delayed treasurer's audits which are kind of boring really but must be done. I hope Sara can be one of those helping out with that. She has experience from the past in helping with audits. I like working with Sara in endeavors.

I don't like the devotional part of Feast, but I don't mind the business part. As you know I am not much for the 'praise God' readings and videos.

As you know I don't like to have a long social part, and Sara and I are at odds on that. I like to leave before she does. Usually she accedes to my desire to leave earlier than she wants to, though I don't request it as soon as I can. I endure the social portion for a while before I express a desire to leave. The social portion is not as much of an ordeal as it used to be, since now I attend more to what people are saying rather than my mind drifting off elsewhere. I try to not let my attention deficit tendency to dominate.

I do not mind the social part of Feast. Although I am not much for light conversation, it is good to see the Baha'is in person once in a while.

Today Sara is off to the 12th day of Ridvan celebration, and I am staying at home. I don't like to going to a lot of Holy day occasions this time of year, with three Ridvan Holy days, the declaration of the Bab later this month, plus the Ascension of Baha'u'llah. Neither the declaration of the Bab or the Ascension of Baha'u'llah will have much socializing since since both will be at the prescribed times on Zoom of about 2 hours after sunset for the declaration of he Bab, and at 4:00 a.m. for the Ascension of Baha'u'llah. I am in charge of putting the Ascension of Baha'u'llah program together. There will be, of course, a minimum of people attending the latter Holy day observance. I like putting together the program regardless of the attendance. It is edifying for me. I already have what I regard as an outstanding video for that by Smith and Dragoman. It will be good to be playing that on the actual anniversary of His passing.

There are so many Baha'i Holy days it makes my head spin. I never attend those celebrations. If the Baha'is spent even half the time that they spend in Baha'i meetings teaching the Faith it is possible that this Faith could get off the ground. I think that the Bab and Baha'u'llah would prefer Baha'is to be teaching to celebrating their declarations, births and ascensions, but I don't run the show. I am just a lone Baha'i with an opinion. The show will on on without me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Like everything else that exists, that god would have a time (now) and place where it could affect other things that exist and be affected by other existing things.

Assuming that wolves exist but that werewolves don't, there are times and places where I could affect a wolf or be affected by one. By contrast, there is nowhere I could be now where I could affect a werewolf or be affected by one.

How do you know that God does not have a time and place where He affects other things that exist and is affected by other existing things?

I assume that by God you mean the god of Abraham. If that god existed, it would be the reason that the universe was formed over six days and why it experienced a global flood.

If you mean the God of the Bible, no, I don't believe that God formed the universe over six days or that the earth ever experienced a global flood.

I am also asked what would be evidence of that god or any other god. The answer is any object or process that is better explained by positing a supernatural agent with magical powers than a godless universe.

Since Jesus allegedly performed miracles that posits a supernatural agent with magical powers, but what good does that do for people who did not witness those miracles? All they can do is believe in them by reading what was recorded in the NT. The same applies for the miracles of Baha'u'llah. We could only have witnessed them if we were alive during His lifetime and met Him face to face. Otherwise all we can do is read about them.

You've written things like that before, but I've never understood why you stick with a god or religion the belief in which doesn't make your life better. In fact, your beliefs seem to make you unhappy. You've said that you wish that you didn't believe what you do, but that you find the words and deeds of the Messenger too compelling to walk away from his claims, words and deeds that I find to be quite human.

Belief in God ans being in the religion does make my life better but it doesn't make me happy. That is not what belief in God and religion are for, to make people happy. Did you see my thread?

Do your beliefs make you happy?

What I am asking is whether you think that your religious or non-religious beliefs about God or gods are the ‘reason’ you are happy. I highly doubt that is the reason people are happy, although they might tell themselves that. If that is the reason they were happy they would not need enjoyable...

www.religiousforums.com

Most who replied were believers and they did not say that their beliefs made them happy. Beliefs might contribute to happiness but most people meed other things to be happy, activities they enjoy, friends and family they love.

Sometimes my beliefs make me unhappy because I have conflicts regarding the character of God. I never will understand how there is so much undue suffering in this world if God is loving. I also have trouble fitting in the Baha'i community because I do not share their love for God and because I am not interested in the act ivies they engage in. It was easier when my husband was alive since he understood how I feel and I had him to talk to.

Yes, I find the words and deeds of Baha'u'llah too compelling to walk away from his claims. I believe they are human but more than human.

Sometimes I wish that you didn't believe what I do because I feel I have to sacrifice what I could otherwise enjoy because of my beliefs. These feelings are coming from my own inner voice, my sense of obligation, rather than from the religion since there is really nothing I cannot do that I want to do because I am a Baha'i. For example, I don't want to have sex out of wedlock or drink alcohol or take recreational drugs, so that is no sacrifice. What I would like to do but cannot do is travel but the religion does not preclude travel. The reason I don't travel is because (a) I have anxiety, (b) I don't like traveling alone, and (c) I don't like leaving the cats.

As I said, I can't understand that. I can't understand what keeps you in that religion. Find a happy religion if religion is what you want and need. The pagans seem pretty happy. Today is Beltane. "Beltane was a "spring time festival of optimism" during which "fertility ritual again was important, perhaps connecting with the waxing power of the sun"

As I said, I did not join the Baha'i Faith in order to be happy. However, I am content because I believe it is the truth from God for this age and I believe I am doing what God wants me to do.

As a loose analogy, I am not always happy with having the responsibility of so many cats but since I love the cats I am willing to sacrifice for them. It is the same with the Baha'i Faith. I do love it, even though it sometimes makes me unhappy because I question some things and that causes inner conflicts. Most Baha'is do not question their beliefs so they are happy with them all the time!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

How do you know that God does not have a time and place where He affects other things that exist and is affected by other existing things?

I don't. But I'm not going to believe that a god exists absent compelling evidence that one does.

I am not always happy with having the responsibility of so many cats but since I love the cats I am willing to sacrifice for them

You have the cats because they make you happy. Why do you have the religion? This is what eludes me. If you hated cats or they did nothing for you, you wouldn't have brought them into your life. We do what we choose to do in the pursuit of maximizing net pleasure which includes actions that minimize pain. We pursue what we want and try to avoid that which we dislike or fear. That's true about lizards as well.

So why are you in that religion? What negative consequences do you foresee by leaving it? I was a Christian until I no longer believed that this god or its heaven existed. Why? Because it wasn't an attractive or appealing life and there was no reason to continue in it if the god or heaven it promised didn't. If that weren't the case - if simply living the Christian life were appealing even if life ended with oblivion - then I would have continued going to church, reading my Bible, etc..

I believe that's the case for many self-identifying Christians. They don't really believe the dogma, but the culture and participation in it is comfortable and familiar. They feel good being with the family in church singing hymns and clapping and laughing, who smile back and nod approvingly.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't. But I'm not going to believe that a god exists absent compelling evidence that one does.

As I have said before, I don't think you should believe in God unless you have evidence that is compelling to you.

You have the cats because they make you happy. Why do you have the religion? This is what eludes me. If you hated cats or they did nothing for you, you wouldn't have brought them into your life.

I have the religion because I believe it is the truth from God. I do not hate my religion and it does do a lot for me. It gives me teachings, laws and principles to live by that make me a better person.

"Our past is not the thing that matters so much in this world as what we intend to do with our future. The inestimable value of religion is that when a man is vitally connected with it, through a real and living belief in it and in the Prophet Who brought it, he receives a strength greater than his own which helps him to develop his good characteristics and overcome his bad ones. The whole purpose of religion is to change not only our thoughts but our acts; when we believe in God and His Prophet and His Teachings, we find we are growing, even though we perhaps thought ourselves incapable of growth and change!"

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 3, 1943)

Lights of Guidance (second part):A Bahá'í Reference File

We do what we choose to do in the pursuit of maximizing net pleasure which includes actions that minimize pain. We pursue what we want and try to avoid that which we dislike or fear. That's true about lizards as well.

You and perhaps most people do what they choose to do in the pursuit of maximizing net pleasure which includes actions that minimize pain. You and perhaps most people pursue what they want, but not everyone does that. Sometimes people make sacrifices for the good of the whole, even if it is not what they want.

I and most people try to avoid that which we dislike or fear. I do not dislike or fear my religion.

So why are you in that religion? What negative consequences do you foresee by leaving it?

I am not in my religion because I fear negative consequences although admittedly I desire the reward the comes with believing and living my beliefs.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

I was a Christian until I no longer believed that this god or its heaven existed. Why? Because it wasn't an attractive or appealing life and there was no reason to continue in it if the god or heaven it promised didn't. If that weren't the case - if simply living the Christian life were appealing even if life ended with oblivion - then I would have continued going to church, reading my Bible, etc..

You just hit the nail on the head. You were a Christian until you no longer believed that the God or its heaven existed....
I am still a Baha'i because I STILL believe that God and heaven exists, although Baha'is don't believe in heaven the same way Christians do.

There would have been no 'reason' to continue in Christianity if you did not believe the God or heaven it promised didn't exist AND living the Christian life was not even attractive or appealing. However, the Baha'i life is attractive and appealing to me, and as I said before, there isn't anything I have to give up that I want. Baha'is are actually enjoined to enjoy the bounties of this world as long as they are allowed under the Law.

“Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276

I believe that's the case for many self-identifying Christians. They don't really believe the dogma, but the culture and participation in it is comfortable and familiar. They feel good being with the family in church singing hymns and clapping and laughing, who smile back and nod approvingly.

That is probably the case for most Christians. They feel good being with the family in church singing hymns and clapping and laughing, but I think they also believe in Jesus and God and love Jesus and God. As for the dogma, I think most Christians just accepted tat since that is what they were taught, and they never questioned it.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I left religion because it was unsatisfying.

I've found my way. I'm not looking for life advice.

No, we're all always in the belief state, the difference being that with empiricism, belief is justified (demonstrated correct) whereas with the religious it is always unjustified belief (faith).

You can only speak for yourself based on your own experience, and that is reasonable, but many souls have gone further than belief and realized that state which they had, as religious novices, previously believed in. Fwiw, it is not impossible for you too to realize a higher state of awareness than you presently do, but first you must believe you can do it. This applies to all aspirations, not just religion, if a young child did not first believe they were capable of learning to ride a bike, they would never learn to ride a bike. But having learnt to ride a bike, they do not go around believing that can learn to ride a bike.
As it is, if you believe there is no God, then that becomes your reality. You can change it anytime as you create your own reality by what you first believe. A realized religious person on the other hand is unfolding their full potential as the human being, perhaps believing that they will be able to do the things that Jesus did, and as he taught his disciples that they would also be able to do, and more.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I do not hate my religion and it does do a lot for me. It gives me teachings, laws and principles to live by that make me a better person.

You don't need religion for that.

You and perhaps most people do what they choose to do in the pursuit of maximizing net pleasure which includes actions that minimize pain. You and perhaps most people pursue what they want, but not everyone does that. Sometimes people make sacrifices for the good of the whole, even if it is not what they want.

That doesn't make sense. If they make sacrifices for the good of the whole, then that is what gives them pleasure. Maybe we have different definitions for pleasure, happiness, and satisfaction.

many souls have gone further than belief

No, they haven't. You and others might claim otherwise, but you can offer nothing in support of those claims.

As it is, if you believe there is no God, then that becomes your reality.

I believe that there is no reason to believe a god exists.

You can change it anytime as you create your own reality by what you believe.

I'm not looking to create my own reality. I'm looking to avoid doing that.

A realized religious person on the other hand is unfolding their full potential as the human being

More empty claims and meaningless words. You and others make these claims of having special knowledge and ways of knowing that give you greater wisdom and insight, but what I see are confused people stumbling through life making mistakes critical thinkers no longer make. The lives of the faithful aren't to be envied.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No, they haven't. You and others might claim otherwise, but you can offer nothing in support of those claims.

I believe that there is no reason to believe a god exists.

I'm not looking to create my own reality. I'm looking to avoid doing that.

More empty claims and meaningless words. You and others make these claims of having special knowledge and ways of knowing that give you greater wisdom and insight, but what I see are confused people stumbling through life making mistakes critical thinkers no longer make. The lives of the faithful aren't to be envied.

Your belief as an atheist is just that, a belief. If you believe that religious goals can never go beyond the belief stage, that religious goals can never be realized, just believed in, then that is the belief you have created, I wish you well in your reality.

 

[Trailblazer]

As it is, if you believe there is no God, then that becomes your reality. You can change it anytime as you create your own reality by what you first believe.

I don't think that atheists can change their non-belief in God into belief in God not any more than believers can change their belief in God to non-belief.
There would have to be a 'reason' for an atheist to 'start' believing in God just as there would have to be a reason fro a believer to 'stop' believing in God.

In the case of @It Aint Necessarily So and all the other atheists I have conversed with, thy would need to see evidence for God that compels them to believe. The reason they do not believe in God is because of the lack of such evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

You don't need religion for that.

No I don't, but you said that religion does nothing for me and I was just responding with what it does for me.

That doesn't make sense. If they make sacrifices for the good of the whole, then that is what gives them pleasure. Maybe we have different definitions for pleasure, happiness, and satisfaction.

That's true, sacrificing for the good of the whole might give people pleasure but I was not talking about pleasure in that sense,
I was talking about worldly pleasures.

When people make sacrifices for their religious beliefs, that is not always what they 'want' to be doing or what they enjoy, so they are not always getting pleasure from that. They might be doing it out of principle and sometimes they are enduring pain. For example, when I talk about my religion and people say derogatory things about it, that is painful.

I'm not looking to create my own reality. I'm looking to avoid doing that.

Good for you.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I don't think that atheists can change their non-belief in God into belief in God not any more than believers can change their belief in God to non-belief.
There would have to be a 'reason' for an atheist to 'start' believing in God just as there would have to be a reason fro a believer to 'stop' believing in God.

In the case of @It Aint Necessarily So and all the other atheists I have conversed with, thy would need to see evidence for God that compels them to believe. The reason they do not believe in God is because of the lack of such evidence.

I understand the practicality of what you are saying, but the fact remains, the kingdom of God is within, and it is not possible to share the evidence of that with an atheist who does not self identify with their inner spiritual nature/soul, but only the outer, ie., God's temple/physical body.

Atheists obviously are/have a soul, but their physical ego self refuses to go within to realize it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I understand the practicality of what you are saying, but the fact remains, the kingdom of God is within, and it is not possible to share the evidence of that with an atheist who does not self identify with their inner spiritual nature/soul, but only the outer, ie., God's temple/physical body.

Oh, I see. You believe that evidence for God is within. I was thinking along the lines of evidence that can be see in the outer world, evidence such as Jesus.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Oh, I see. You believe that evidence for God is within. I was thinking along the lines of evidence that can be see in the outer world, evidence such as Jesus.

I don't just believe the evidence for God is within, to the extent it has, spiritual realization has been unfolding wrt soul. Evidence in the outer world can occur, but it may come too late for some, as imho end times has begun, judgement is near.

 

[jimb]

Your belief as an atheist is just that, a belief. If you believe that religious goals can never go beyond the belief stage, that religious goals can never be realized, just believed in, then that is the belief you have created, I wish you well in your reality.

Well said!

 

[Truthseeker]

There are so many Baha'i Holy days it makes my head spin. I never attend those celebrations. If the Baha'is spent even half the time that they spend in Baha'i meetings teaching the Faith it is possible that this Faith could get off the ground. I think that the Bab and Baha'u'llah would prefer Baha'is to be teaching to celebrating their declarations, births and ascensions, but I don't run the show. I am just a lone Baha'i with an opinion. The show will on on without me.

We have found very few friends of the Faith to teach here. However, I also wish my community would not spend so much time observing each and every holy day. Specifically, why take the time to celebrate all three Ridvan holy days? We could at least be endeavouring in that time to learn something important, or improve our character or spirituality or even find some much more entertaining than socializing.

I also do Sara a service when I don't go to Kettering holy days, because when I'm not there, she can socialize longer.

 

[Trailblazer]

We have found very few friends of the Faith to teach here. However, I also wish my community would not spend so much time observing each and every holy day. Specifically, why take the time to celebrate all three Ridvan holy days? We could at least be endeavouring in that time to learn something important, or improve our character or spirituality or even find some much more entertaining than socializing.

I also do Sara a service when I don't go to Kettering holy days, because when I'm not there, she can socialize longer.

Most people prefer to socialize rather than improving their character or spirituality because it is so much easier.

 

[2ndpillar]

I don't just believe the evidence for God is within, to the extent it has, spiritual realization has been unfolding wrt soul. Evidence in the outer world can occur, but it may come too late for some, as imho end times has begun, judgement is near.

Apparently, the judgment for Hamas is coming to an end. Hopefully their supporters can find a little judgment in a 8 x 6 cell. I am sure the Texas governor will do what he can. As for judgment in general, that is when the LORD gather the "nations" against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-2). The numbers lining against Jerusalem seem to be almost 100%. Biden just told Israel to leave Hamas alone for the return a small fraction of the kidnapped. Most of the kidnapped have already been killed, and Hamas can only equivocate.

 

[Anne1]

I couldn't disagree more. There are good and righteous people who are atheists. And there are religious people who fully accept the Bible and are horrid. Also there is nothing to understand beyond what is written in the Bible. After all Christianity teaches that “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." and "the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God".

Then why did Pew find that Christians contribute to charity 50% more than the nonreligious? Why do they lie less, cheat less, and have happier marriages? i

 

[Anne1]

This is such a a twisting of Scripture! How did you even come up with such garbage? (There are better words to describe it but are inappropriate for posting on this forum.)

What is your motive for posting this?

What is the motive of atheists posting mean little jabs at those who believe? It actually makes no sense. If there is not God, why the hell do they care what others think? What is the point of being mean? Oh, wait. Evil has no reason. It merely is.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

What is the motive of atheists posting mean little jabs at those who believe? It actually makes no sense. If there is not God, why the hell do they care what others think? What is the point of being mean? Oh, wait. Evil has no reason. It merely is.

You're complaining about atheists posting mean little jabs at believers, but you just posted a mean little jab at atheists by insinuating that they are evil.