Yeah, that's fine. I think it would be a positive change.
It seems to me that these all still occur with what we have now and are a problem no matter what.
... but getting rid of special protections for religions would help, I think.
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What if every religion was left de-organized?
- Thread starter ☆Dreamwind☆
- Start date
Yeah, that's fine. I think it would be a positive change.
It seems to me that these all still occur with what we have now and are a problem no matter what.
... but getting rid of special protections for religions would help, I think.
☆Dreamwind☆
Active Member
What special protections would you advocate to get rid of, out of curiosity?
And yes those problems will unfortunately always be present. But perhaps natural minimization would make it at least a little easier to keep an eye on so it doesnt get so rampantly out of control? Or maybe it wouldn't? I really don't know.
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A few examples that comes to mind (with the caveat that these rules vary from jurisdictions to jurisdiction):
- in some places, daycares and private schools operated by churches don't have to meet all of the safety-related rules that other daycares and private schools do.
- in some places, churches don't need to do the same financial filings that legitimate charities have to. This can create a lack of transparency that can hide financial misdeeds, legal settlements, etc.
- here in Ontario, three classes of people are entitled by law to enter a public school: trustees of the board that oversees the school, parents of students, and local clergy. Schools don't have the legal right to refuse entry to a problematic minister or priest.
☆Dreamwind☆
Active Member
That makes a lot of sense.
Banach-Tarski Paradox
Active Member
I did add a sentence while you were posting this, I think.
Most of the information is unfortunately in Spanish, but I kind of know where to find it.
Her ancestors were cimmarones (run-away slaves).
They and their communities were considered as illegal by the colonial state, and needed to be distroyed.
The palenques were founded by sorcerers.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Excellent questions! I expect this to be a very fun and thoughtful thread.
Just to give context, I don't push organized religion. It's not for everyone.
I would also preface this by saying that small groups are just as organized as large groups. Meeting in a home is not the same thing as disorganized religion. If you share a common creed, a common set of ethics, and common practices, that IS organized religion, no matter how small one's group.
That said, to answer your question, without organized religion, there would be no soup kitchens, no non-profit hospitals, because those kinds of charities require the organized coordination of many. That's to start with.
But there is more. People who are involved in religious communities statistically speaking have better health and well being. For reasons scientists are simply unsure of, other forms of community just don't get the same results. The relevant factors have yet to be identified.
It is also worth mentioning that evolutionary biologists are now proposing that religion is adaptive in that it helps to form cooperative groups. But for that to happen, you have to have a common religion either in the culture at large, or in your subgroup, and common religions tend to only occur in an organized fashion.
Finally, I would say I have a personal preference for religions that have educated clergy. I realize that sects such as the LDS and Friends do not have paid pastors -- they minister to one another and it seems to work fine for them. But I simply do prefer to have someone who is well educated in my religion doing the teaching. I don't think Judaism could even function without highly educated rabbis who are experts in Jewish law. I mean what if a question came up about a law, and no one knew the answer, and you got 10 different opinions?
As to would eliminating organized religion lead to less abuse of religion? I really don't know. You are basically asking me to guess without any real evidence one way or the other. Well my guess is that it would have no effect. The reason I say that is because I don't think those abuses are due to religion, organized or disorganized. I think those abuses occur because of the evil in men's hearts.
I *do* however, strongly advocate for a separation of church and state. When I look at history, when the church BECOMES the state, tyranny results. Look at Calvin's Geneva and be afraid.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There is nothing stopping us from doing that already.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Hinduism is a very interesting case. After listening to plenty of arguments on both sides, I have reached the conclusion that Hinduism isn't really one religion, but many religions all loosely associated because they are indigenous to India.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
OMGosh. We live in an age where a working class person can't even qualify to rent an apartment, and you think there is no need for unions?
Tinkerpeach
Active Member
Plenty of working class people rent apartments without being in a union.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I don't know where. Certainly not in my neck of the woods. Here, apartment owners require you make 3x the amount of rent before they will even consider you. If a one bedroom apartment runs 2400/mo like mine, that means an income of 7200/mo. I knew a couple where both had full time jobs, one as a Barista manager and the other as an EMT, and they slept in their car.
Tinkerpeach
Active Member
Well your statistics are off.
The average rent for an apartment in the U.S. is $1,713. The cost of rent varies depending on several factors, including location, size, and quality.
43,858,831 or 35% of the households in U.S. are renter-occupied while 80,152,161 or 65% are owner-occupied.
Union RepresentationThe percentage of workers represented by a union was 11.2 percent in 2023, also little different than a year earlier. Workers represented by a union include both union members (14.4 million) and workers who report no union affiliation but whose jobs are covered by a union contract (1.8 million).
So that’s about 30 million non-union people renting apartments
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Like I said, not in my neck of the woods, Orange County. "When you rent an apartment in Orange, you can expect to pay about $2,277 per month for a studio, $2,324 for a one-bedroom apartment, and around $2,818 for a two bedroom." The prices do not include the fees for parking, mandatory renters insurance, or pet rent. There are some places in Orange County where a one bedroom can cost $5900/mo.
Let's work with YOUR figures for a moment. A working class couple moves up to Northern California, and spots an apartment that rents for $1713. Since they are required to make 3x the rent, they don't even qualify for consideration, because even with both incomes combined, they simply don't make 5139/mo.
Ever wonder why 28% of the nation's homeless are in California? Now you know why.
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Yep. I just interviewed a candidate that recently moved back to Cleveland from Anaheim. She was paying $2500/mo for a one bedroom apartment.
It would make it worse, as it would only increase anarchy.
Mankind needs organisation based on God's given Messages. Humanity needs to submit to a code of laws based founded on the principles given in God’s Messages.
When anarchy reigns, self interest will override the needed virtues and morals and feed the criminal element that are in this life only for themselves, no one would be safe.
Regards Tony
Tinkerpeach
Active Member
Sounds like a California problem not a national problem.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Well, Yeah.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
A similar question: Is it good to have knifes or would we be better off without them?
Abuse occurs in most cases within family. I think it's better to have organised institutions (religion, scouts, sport, charity, education...) that are beneficial to society. Laws, precautions and control should be applied to minimize possible harm.
Religion is not the problem. Religious extremism is. People kill each other also because of national and other extremism. Even fans of different sport clubs do it... But should we throw the baby out with the bathwater? As @The Hammer already said we should overgrow the tribal us-them mentality.
I think the world would more peaceful if democracy, legal state, good education, economic development, separation of religion and state... was reached globally.
Banach-Tarski Paradox
Active Member
My wife has three machetes under our bed.
She uses them for yard work and tending to her flower garden.
It’s a part of her religion.
