What is in a claim?

[tariqkhwaja]

Assalamualaikum.

Al-Ahqaf Chapter 46 : Verse 5
Say to them, 'Do you know what it is you call upon beside Allah? Show me what they have created of the earth. Or, have they a share in the creation of the heavens? Bring me a Book revealed before this or some vestige of knowledge in your support, if you indeed, speak the truth.'

It is an extremely strong argument in support of Islam and the Quran.

Where is their claim? The concept of who God is is a very fundamental concept of every religion of the world. But one problem with some of the other major religions of the world is that God's nature is an inferred concept and not directly stated in their holy books.

So, for example, in the Hindu books we never find something like "There is Om who is the chief God and there are about 300 or so Gods apart from the chief God and their names are so and so and one must worship the good ones and ignore the bad ones ...." Hindus infer from various Vedic and Geeta texts that there are so many Gods and not one but inferences are inferences and very prone to human error.

Similarly, in the Bible while it is stated that "There is no God other than Me" (gist) the concept of trinity is never explicitly stated. The word trinity, itself, is never used and the whole concept is an inference from various statements.

Both religions make extraordinary conclusions from statements that could be given ordinary conclusions. But categorical statements about beliefs as fundamental as this one are never made. "There is no God other than Me; Father, Holy Spirit, and Jesus are three (parts) of Me ..." or something like that.

In this regard lays one of Islam's strengths and a strength of its Holy Book, the Quran. Our fundamental claims are all found and stated quite explicitly in the Quran. And many times. This might be one reason that these claims of "There is no God but Allah" are stated so many times.

In fact, the first verse of Surah Ikhlaas is
[112:2] Say 'He is Allah, the One!.

The above Surah I consider a champion of God's oneness and unity and destroyer of any claim counter to that. The verse invites Muslims to make explicit claims to God's oneness and also invites other religions to at least make explicit claims regarding God from their books instead of inferring them from various verses of the books.

 

[herushura]

'Do you know what it is you call upon beside Allah? Show me what they have created of the earth

'Do you know what it is you call upon beside "The Most High Sun? Show me what they have Completed the Circle of the earth = Suns Annual Journey of the Zodiac " Ancient called the zodiac (Circle of the Earth)

"There is no God other than Me" There is no other Sun but me, Obviously

Father(Most high Sun), Holy Spirit(Setting Sun), and Jesus(Rising Sun) The Same Sun at different Times

Say 'He is Allah, the One!. = Say he is Most High, the Sun

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Herushura what was the point of your post.

 

[herushura]

Herushura what was the point of your post.

To Spread Wisdom

 

[tariqkhwaja]

herushura (with all due respect) you are making no sense to me.

If you can show from the primary source (holy book or something) of your religion (Wisdom you call it) that there are categorical claims about what God is it would make me happy.

 

[Dunemeister]

In this regard lays one of Islam's strengths and a strength of its Holy Book, the Quran. Our fundamental claims are all found and stated quite explicitly in the Quran. And many times. This might be one reason that these claims of "There is no God but Allah" are stated so many times.

Why not regard this as a weakness rather than a strength? Does this perhaps not imply that the view of God in the Quran lacks depth? Perhaps the Christian or Hindu conceptions of God require deduction and analogy and metaphor because they are richer, more complete, more resonant than what appears in the (perhaps painfully) simple (simplistic?) statements contained in the Quran?

I don't say this because I believe this argument. I only pose it as a possibility.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Why not regard this as a weakness rather than a strength? Does this perhaps not imply that the view of God in the Quran lacks depth? Perhaps the Christian or Hindu conceptions of God require deduction and analogy and metaphor because they are richer, more complete, more resonant than what appears in the (perhaps painfully) simple (simplistic?) statements contained in the Quran?

I don't say this because I believe this argument. I only pose it as a possibility.

I will have to refute that point ... albeit a good point.

The refutation is that one needs to know how to recognize someone in order to respect them, no matter how much depth that person might have.

I hope you respect your parents. In any case if your parents were to pass by you during the day you would see them and you know how they look and you would subsequently show them respect and honor them in whatever way you do. Yet if they passed you in the darkness and you did not recognize them how can anyone expect you to show any respect. See you don't need to know how deep they go, how their cellular systems work, the intricatness of their design and personality in order to recognize them ... but you need something.

In the same way it is not necessary to know the intricate depths regarding God (as pointed out by the Quran in numerous ways on which pages may be written (if you wish I can PM you some bits)) in order to worship Him but you need to know some characteristics you can use to identify Him.

The fact that Hinduism, Christianity, etc. in their primary sources (holy books) fail to explicitly identify these characteristics is their weakness. The fact that it is a 'mystery' then is not a strength but a great underlying weakness. So when a Hindu prays to God which god does he pray to? Who does he supplicate to? These things are not explicitly stated in the Vedas.

Similarly, in Christianity the whole concept of trinity in shrouded in mystery. Is it the one God who I worship. Or should I give equal time to three gods. Or are they three parts of the same god. Or three forms of the same god. I mean how can I turn my attention and pray to God if I do not even know how to recognize Him? Who am I suppose to call. Priests will tell you. Books are written on the topic. But the Holy Bible never explicitly states how trinity comes to be and leaves everyone inferring.

Long answer but your query was good.

 

[herushura]

herushura (with all due respect) you are making no sense to me.

If you can show from the primary source (holy book or something) of your religion (Wisdom you call it) that there are categorical claims about what God is it would make me happy.

The Point of Religion is to spread Wisdom, I am spreading Religious Values but with a logical sense of wisdom

 

[herushura]

herushura (with all due respect) you are making no sense to me.

If you can show from the primary source (holy book or something) of your religion (Wisdom you call it) that there are categorical claims about what God is it would make me happy.

The Holy book i use for my wisdom is Qu'ran, bible, book of dead and Enuma Elish.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

What does what you say have to do with what I posted in the OP? I can't connect the two.

 

[zenzero]

Friend tariqkwaja,
Any claim comes from the EGO.
Next, it is always better not to speak about things of which one does not have full knowledge about.
Specially when one takes one side of the coin without understanding what any RELIGION is about. Whatever is written in the QURAN or the BIBLE or the VEDAS, DHAMMAPADA, GURUGRANTH, etc. they are all pointing to the same energy which one calls by the name of ALLAH, another as God, another as Bhagwan while another does not talk about it, so on and so forth.
All enlightened people know that all reach to the same place that is merging with the whole.
Love & rgds

 

[herushura]

Friend tariqkwaja,
Any claim comes from the EGO.
Next, it is always better not to speak about things of which one does not have full knowledge about.
Specially when one takes one side of the coin without understanding what any RELIGION is about. Whatever is written in the QURAN or the BIBLE or the VEDAS, DHAMMAPADA, GURUGRANTH, etc. they are all pointing to the same energy which one calls by the name of ALLAH, another as God, another as Bhagwan while another does not talk about it, so on and so forth.
All enlightened people know that all reach to the same place that is merging with the whole.
Love & rgds

The Energy is from the Sun

 

[Dunemeister]

Similarly, in Christianity the whole concept of trinity in shrouded in mystery. Is it the one God who I worship. Or should I give equal time to three gods. Or are they three parts of the same god. Or three forms of the same god. I mean how can I turn my attention and pray to God if I do not even know how to recognize Him? Who am I suppose to call. Priests will tell you. Books are written on the topic. But the Holy Bible never explicitly states how trinity comes to be and leaves everyone inferring.

You recognize God in a way analogous to your parents. You interact and become familiar. In Christianity, recognizing God is painfully easy despite the Trinity; actually BECAUSE of the Trinity. We recognize God in and through Jesus. As Jesus said, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." QED

On to some of your misconceptions as implied by your questions. Is it the one God whom you ought to worship?
Well, there is in fact only one God, so the answer is "Of course!"

Or three forms of the same God?
That's not what the Trinity means. The Trinity means that there is one divine being (let's call Him God) that subsists as three "persons" (for lack of a better word). It's perfectly appropriate to worship and pray to any of the persons because they all share the same dignity as divine.

As you've said, a lot of ink has been spilled on the Trinity both in explication and defense and in refutation. But it poses no insuperable logical puzzles. Rather, it evokes the question "How can this be?" and the only answer is "God knows." It may inspire wonder but it need not cause confusion unless a person is ideologically prevented from regarding the topic sympathetically. And it certainly doesn't make it difficult to recognize God. Quite the opposite.

 

[herushura]

Trinity is a Sun Concept and it link with 666

Son ----- Dawn (6AM)
Father ----- Noon (6 Hours between Dawn/noon or noon/evening)
Holy Spirit ----- Evening (6 PM)

The Beast is the Sun and the Wisdom is Time

The Son repressent the birth of the Sun or the Sunrise
Father repressent the Sun at Most High *the orignal name of God is (El/elohim) El litterly means Most High)
Holy Spirit Repressent the Dying Father or the Sunset.

From Sunset(Holy Spirt) the Holy Spirit becomes the Son again in the Morning

Satan repressent the Sun in the Underworld

 

[zenzero]

Friend herushura,Son ----- Dawn (6AM)Father ----- Noon (6 Hours between Dawn/noon or noon/evening)Holy Spirit ----- Evening (6 PM)The Beast is the Sun and the Wisdom is TimeThe Son repressent the birth of the Sun or the SunriseFather repressent the Sun at Most High *the orignal name of God is (El/elohim) El litterly means Most High)Holy Spirit Repressent the Dying Father or the Sunset.It is the same as the Holy Trinity in Sanatan DharmaBhrama as creatorVishnu as preserverMahesh as destroyerLove & rgds

 

[herushura]

Friend herushura,Son ----- Dawn (6AM)Father ----- Noon (6 Hours between Dawn/noon or noon/evening)Holy Spirit ----- Evening (6 PM)The Beast is the Sun and the Wisdom is TimeThe Son repressent the birth of the Sun or the SunriseFather repressent the Sun at Most High *the orignal name of God is (El/elohim) El litterly means Most High)Holy Spirit Repressent the Dying Father or the Sunset.It is the same as the Holy Trinity in Sanatan DharmaBhrama as creatorVishnu as preserverMahesh as destroyerLove & rgds

Thank you for confusing me with your poor grammer

 

[opuntia]

There is no God but Allah. It is true that Christianity covers this aspect of God and call Him the Father. But as the word "Father" signifies, there are children associated with this Divine Being.

Now , here is where many men and women depart where the power of God is concerned: Being able to deify His own children. Can God deify His own children if He is a God? What father does not want his son the become like he is? Hence, Paul the Apostle said that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal with God." (Philippians 2:6; KJV). If my father wanted me to be a carpenter like he was, I would not think it was robbery if I wanted be a carpenter like my father. In likeness, Jesus sought to become like His Father: a God. What better gift can God give than to make his sons like Himself: a God.

If you cannot digest this, then being a lower form like an angel is better for you.

Of course, you will have to argue why God or Allah has not the power to deify His own children. Maybe Allah lacks certain powers, thus making Him limited in certain ways. Maybe He does not know all things, thus making Him limited in education. Maybe He can only create beings which cannot be made Gods but only angels, thus making Him the only God. Maybe He refuses to share His station as God and will create only inferior beings, thus making Him selfish considering the richness of Godhood. Maybe He prefers to be the only God because He prefers loneliness. Maybe He is not lonely at all. Maybe His children do want to become Gods or do not want hear such things. All these arguments you may adopt for your argument against my argument: Deification.

Let's see what the Bible contains:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." (Genesis 3:22).

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

"Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy." (Leviticus 19:1-2).

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." (Psalm 82:6).

Jesus said:

""Be ye therefore perfect [Greek, complete, finished, fully developed], even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48).

Perhaps Allah prefers inferior beings who can only become what you imagine. There must be an answer as to why there is only one God and will never be another God--one God for all eternity and all space.

Perhaps there was always only one God or Allah and always will be and for some reason we are unable to achieve that high station. Perhaps we are formed from inferior products. Perhaps there is a whole race of Gods and we are unhappily created for a lower form of existence while the Gods raise their own for Godhood, i.e. we are slaves or servants of the Gods forever, angels. Maybe there is only a certain number of Gods or just one God.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

And my point is that it would have been way better if the concept of that God was stated explicitly. Islam is the only one meeting that requirement.

 

[zenzero]

Friend tariqkwaja,
The fact that you wanted to declare in your post is that only ISLAM is the right path/way/religion.
No arguments.
Kindly become enlightened following Islam and others will not only celebrate but follow you.
Once again, kindly avoid comparisons between different paths/ways/religions, as it helps none in their efforts towards enlightenment including you.
Best wishes.
Love & rgds

 

[tariqkhwaja]

What are you talking about? I come to the religious debates forum to show my point of view. That being my point of view please do not tell me I should not avoid comparisons.

This is being discussed on the "Islam is False" section too. It must be understood that there is a different between strongly disagreeing or even hating a belief and hating the person holding the belief. You can simultaneously hate the belief and love the person.