Harsh Truth: If Intelligent Design is Untestable . . .

[ImmortalFlame]

When Dr. Horner was asked if he could carbon-14 test the T-Rex soft tissue discovered by Mary Schweitzer in 1993, why did he refuse?

Because C-14 radiocarbon dating is only accurate up to 50,000 years. What would be the point? It's like asking why you'd refuse to bake a cake using the thrusters from a NASA spacecraft.

 

[Parsimony]

That test Dr. Austin tested was a closed system and cannot be altered by any machine or K-Ar dating method. Once the natural occurring argon escape the system close and started forming or should start forming the daughter isotopes, i.e., argon, from potassium and ten years after the system closed or reset to zero they’ve tested the rock and it gives them 350,000 years in just 10 years. It was a blind test from an independent lab.

“These were submitted for potassium-argon analysis to Geochron Laboratories of Cambridge, MA, a high quality, professional radioisotope dating laboratory.”

Use your common sense, in just 10 years it yields 350,000 years. That’s 35,000 per year. So, if you divide Lucy’s age, i.e., 3,200,000 years old to 35,000/yr. you should see 91.42 years only and not the 3,200,000 years and that would make Lucy an ape and not a human.

It's possible to determine whether a system has remained closed or not. Isochron plots and mixing plots reveal this. If the plots show that the system has allowed isotopes to escape or enter, then the scientists know not to trust the age results as accurate. If the plots show no opening of the system, then they know the resulting age is reliable.

The equipment at the laboratory you mention cannot accurately measure K-Ar dates for very young samples. Secondly, the dacite sample was not homogeneous, meaning that any xenocrysts in the sample would make it appear older than it actually was. Xenocrysts are solid crystals that once existed in liquefied rock. They can therefore be significantly older than the flow which contains them. It is also known that xenocrysts can become open systems due to their high temperature environment. That would further throw off accurate calculations: CD013.1: K-Ar dating of Mt. St. Helens dacite

 

[gnostic]

Speaking of Job 40:15 “Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you; He eats grass like an ox.,

“BEHEMOTH”, the DINOSAUR species? Yes! And the “LEVIATHAN” in Job 41:1, Job 3:8 and Psalm 104:26 known as the sea monsters.

You just gave us more proof from Job that human were living contemporaneously with dinosaurs and the leviathans.

Now, tell me who is the “uneducated” here, you, who provided this evidence against evolutionist, or God? You should have kept your thoughts with you.

Dinosaurs, seriously?

I just wish they still have facepalm smiley, but I would guess that I just have to roll my eyes here.

Dinosaurs haven't been around in at least 65 millions years. There were no humans around when dinosaurs walked this Earth.

Neither Job nor Psalm give enough description to know what these Leviathan or Behemoth.

You are only identifying the Leviathan/Behemoth with dinosaurs are only based on your warped fantasy. Science involved description, but more importantly EXPLANATION. You have no idea if the Leviathan or Behemoth is a real creature because neither books give enough detail to identify it.

Have your parents tell you not to tell lies? Because you are lying right now. Misrepresentation is lie. You are misrepresenting the biblical verses right now.

That you would identify to creature that have been extinct for 65 million years, showed just how desperate you really up.

It is no wonder that young earth creationists are the laughingstock of the world, that you would believe in dinosaurs and living around the same time.

You have just proven that you have no credibility whatsoever. You have been watching too much reruns of Jurassic Park, while taking LSD. It just show us how sadly lacking your education is, in science, and that you need a reality-check or a wake up call.

Dinosaurs...yeah right. You're hoot-and-half.

 

[gnostic]

Because C-14 radiocarbon dating is only accurate up to 50,000 years. What would be the point? It's like asking why you'd refuse to bake a cake using the thrusters from a NASA spacecraft.

Ha! That's a good one.

 

[gnostic]

When Dr. Horner was asked if he could carbon-14 test the T-Rex soft tissue discovered by Mary Schweitzer in 1993, why did he refuse? Was he concern about what might be the outcome of the test? You should do a research on this and find out yourself and you will be surprise that those millions and billions of years were nothing but lies.

“He was concerned about the “spin” that creationists might put on such a result and that a radiometric dating result in thousands of years “is not going to help us.” By helping us, he means those of the evolutionary faithful. He is absolutely correct with regard to his concerns. The evidence of dinosaurs that date back to the biblical story of creation in the book of Genesis would be a tragedy for those who are hanging their hats, not to mention their professional reputations, on the Darwinian assumption of deep time.”

Seriously, you need to get back to the 21st century.

Scientists have known for decades now that you don't use carbon-14 to date materials that are older than 40,000 years, because they know it would give them reading.

They also wouldn't use K-Ar radiometric to date young samples.

It is you who can't seem to wrap your head around known limitations to radiometric datings.

And second, "evolutionists" don't actually date the samples themselves, unless they have the necessary qualifications and trainings. Radiometric dating is specialised field, that biologists don't use themselves.

 

[JM2C]

Because C-14 radiocarbon dating is only accurate up to 50,000 years. What would be the point? It's like asking why you'd refuse to bake a cake using the thrusters from a NASA spacecraft.

That was the obvious question, wasn’t it? If I’m 100% sure that this T-rex is really 68 million years old and just for the sake of any more arguments to go on indefinitely between creationists and evolutionists, then I would probably test it with 14C dating method, but Dr. Horner knew that the soft tissue are dateable with 14C and he knew that these results would falsify the millions-to-billions of years of evolution.

 

[JM2C]

Dinosaurs, seriously?


I just wish they still have facepalm smiley, but I would guess that I just have to roll my eyes here.


Dinosaurs haven't been around in at least 65 millions years. There were no humans around when dinosaurs walked this Earth.


Neither Job nor Psalm give enough description to know what these Leviathan or Behemoth.

JOB 40:17 “He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together.

Cedar can grow up to 130 feet and that is just the tail of this Behemoth.

 

[genypher]

The two are inexorably linked though, it would be illogical for God to create a world with all the specific instructions to create life, yet have no particular interest in the result..

and to then assume that the result being a single sentient species making creation itself self-aware- and giving thanks for it, is just another staggering coincidence.


addressing the process by relying on design improvements occurring by chance, along with everything else, does not represent an adequate explanation for most people.

Why would you think a deity would be uninterested in the results of creating a world with the instructions for life to occur and change and adapt? Maybe your conception of god would have no interest in such things, but a curious god might. A scientist god, for lack of a better word. I don't believe in gods, but I could easily conceive of a god that would logically do such things. I see creating a world with the parameters set for life and then letting it flourish simply as a result of the processes in place as no less logical than creating a world that is "very good" and allowing it to descend into death and sin even when the creator holds the power to return it to goodness. In fact, I see it as far more logical.

It's always interesting to me how many theists refuse to get past their old books and look at the evidence presented in the universe they believe their deity created. I was taught ToE in Catholic school. I didn't meet a theist who rejected the ToE until I became involved in religious discussion forums. It boggles my mind that people are so hung up on their own interpretation of a deity being correct that they would ignore the blatant piles of evidence spanning over 150 years in favor of their own suppositions.

 

[JM2C]

You are only identifying the Leviathan/Behemoth with dinosaurs are only based on your warped fantasy. Science involved description, but more importantly EXPLANATION.

I don’t think you, mestemia and outhouse EXPLAINED anything at all in this thread about SCIENCE.

 

[JM2C]

You have no idea if the Leviathan or Behemoth is a real creature because neither books give enough detail to identify it.

how is this for details?

JOB 40:15 “Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you; He eats grass like an ox.

JOB 40:16 “Behold now, his strength in his loins. And his power in the muscles of his belly.

JOB 40:17 “He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together.

JOB 40:18 “His bones are tubes of bronze; His limbs are like bars of iron.

JOB 40:19 “He is the first of the ways of God; Let his maker bring near his sword.

JOB 40:20 “Surely the mountains bring him food, And all the beasts of the field play there.

JOB 40:21 “Under the lotus plants he lies down, In the covert of the reeds and the marsh.

JOB 40:22 “The lotus plants cover him with shade; The willows of the brook surround him.

JOB 40:23 “If a river rages, he is not alarmed; He is confident, though the Jordan rushes to his mouth.

JOB 40:24 “Can anyone capture him when he is on watch, With barbs can anyone pierce his nose?

The book of Job had been around for thousands of years long before scientists start discovering dinosaur fossils.

 

[JM2C]

Have your parents tell you not to tell lies? Because you are lying right now. Misrepresentation is lie. You are misrepresenting the biblical verses right now.

That you would identify to creature that have been extinct for 65 million years, showed just how desperate you really up.

It is no wonder that young earth creationists are the laughingstock of the world, that you would believe in dinosaurs and living around the same time.

Actually the proof came from your own ignorance. Who’s laughing now? Sorry I don’t use emojis, too feminine for me.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/03/fashion/mens-style/should-grown-men-use-emoji.html?_r=0

Ninjas like you are exempted, I guess.

One more thing, did your parents tell you that Halloween is in November only? Edit: Oct 31, 2015

 

[JM2C]

You have just proven that you have no credibility whatsoever. You have been watching too much reruns of Jurassic Park, while taking LSD. It just show us how sadly lacking your education is, in science, and that you need a reality-check or a wake up call.


Dinosaurs...yeah right. You're hoot-and-half.

Did you know that Dr. Alan Grant, the paleontologist in Jurassic Park movie is Dr. Horner, the one with the T-rex, the one who refused to test his T-rex with Carbon 14 dating method?

Taking LSD while watching Jurassic Park. Is that a joke?

 

[Shad]

how is this for details?

JOB 40:15 “Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you; He eats grass like an ox.

JOB 40:16 “Behold now, his strength in his loins. And his power in the muscles of his belly.

JOB 40:17 “He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together.

JOB 40:18 “His bones are tubes of bronze; His limbs are like bars of iron.

JOB 40:19 “He is the first of the ways of God; Let his maker bring near his sword.

JOB 40:20 “Surely the mountains bring him food, And all the beasts of the field play there.

JOB 40:21 “Under the lotus plants he lies down, In the covert of the reeds and the marsh.

JOB 40:22 “The lotus plants cover him with shade; The willows of the brook surround him.

JOB 40:23 “If a river rages, he is not alarmed; He is confident, though the Jordan rushes to his mouth.

JOB 40:24 “Can anyone capture him when he is on watch, With barbs can anyone pierce his nose?

The book of Job had been around for thousands of years long before scientists start discovering dinosaur fossils.

Most can easily be identified with a cow minus the verse about the tail, which is incoherent as ceders do not bend by their own will but due to the environment or an agent such as a person. 40:19-20 is just religious rhetoric and not a description of the creature itself. Perhaps look at some work from the Greek which were better able to describe animals. Your standards for a description can be used to argument gryphon exist. Beside this no one verse mentions height, length, width, skin tone, type of skin (scales for example), etc.

 

[JM2C]

Seriously, you need to get back to the 21st century.


Scientists have known for decades now that you don't use carbon-14 to date materials that are older than 40,000 years, because they know it would give them reading.


They also wouldn't use K-Ar radiometric to date young samples.


It is you who can't seem to wrap your head around known limitations to radiometric datings.


And second, "evolutionists" don't actually date the samples themselves, unless they have the necessary qualifications and trainings. Radiometric dating is specialised field, that biologists don't use themselves.

You don’t seems to understand what you are talking about here, do you? We are talking about the soft tissue with protein. Please do a research on this topic to enlighten your ignorance on matters that you don’t understand.

“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” –Thomas Sowell

 

[JM2C]

Most can easily be identified with a cow minus the verse about the tail, which is incoherent as ceders do not bend by their own will but due to the environment or an agent such as a person.

Is that your best explanation, ”a cow minus the verse about the tail”? How about a dinosaur minus 68 million years?

 

[JM2C]

40:19-20 is just religious rhetoric and not a description of the creature itself. Perhaps look at some work from the Greek which were better able to describe animals. Your standards for a description can be used to argument gryphon exist.

”Religious rhetoric” is not in any way related to the description itself? Where do you think this rhetoric came from? Try this verse JOB 40:15 “Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you; He eats grass like an ox.

There wouldn’t be any rhetoric or any narrative at all if there was no “BEHEMOTH” that God created.

Beside this no one verse mentions height, length, width, skin tone, type of skin (scales for example), etc.

JOB 40:17 “He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together.


Cedar can grow up to 130 feet and that is just the tail of this Behemoth.

 

[Shad]

Is that your best explanation, ”a cow minus the verse about the tail”? How about a dinosaur minus 68 million years?

The point was that metaphorical descriptions can be used to argue any creature existed or into "existence". However when the fossil evidence is in a completely different time period the description is no longer describing what you claim it is.

It is about probability. Dinosaurs existing millions of years ago has evidence, ie fossils and dating. Your view is that is dating is all wrong thus dating methods can not be used and scribblings in a book you take seriously. You just produced the Christian version of Ancient Aliens by inferring verification rather than by falsification as you dismissed the very tools which we could use find the age of fossils. Your view is unfalsifiable thus it pointless. More so anyone can take whatever scribblings they wish to take seriously, question dating methods then invoke the argument from ignorance, your view, which is fallacious thus illogical.

 

[Shad]

”Religious rhetoric” is not in any way related to the description itself? Where do you think this rhetoric came from? Try this verse JOB 40:15 “Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you; He eats grass like an ox.

There wouldn’t be any rhetoric or any narrative at all if there was no “BEHEMOTH” that God created.

It is rhetoric is it is not describing the thing itself. It is describing other things such as the mountains and other animals. No one describes a lion in order to produce an image of physical characteristics of gazelle, it is only used to describe the acts. It is an exaggeration for the purpose of persuasion not an evidence based description.

JOB 40:17 “He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together.


Cedar can grow up to 130 feet and that is just the tail of this Behemoth.

Where does it say 130 feet? You are only assuming the verse is describing its length rather than the flexibility of the tail as a parallel to the flexibility of a ceder. You are injecting information not within the verse.

BLB - Job 40: The Trials of Job 40 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

None of the words suggest length

 

[Parsimony]

That was the obvious question, wasn’t it? If I’m 100% sure that this T-rex is really 68 million years old and just for the sake of any more arguments to go on indefinitely between creationists and evolutionists, then I would probably test it with 14C dating method, but Dr. Horner knew that the soft tissue are dateable with 14C and he knew that these results would falsify the millions-to-billions of years of evolution.

Wait, so you accept carbon-14 dating as accurate?

The existence of soft tissue does not mean that carbon-14 is present. Why would you think so? Soft tissues do not require the existence of carbon-14: stable carbon-12 and carbon-13 work just fine. Even if those soft tissues did turn out to be less than 50,000 years old, it would not falsify evolution anymore than the discovery of living coelacanths falsified evolution. It would not mean that dinosaurs did not live 65 million years ago, but rather that at least that one species managed to survive to much more recent times.

JOB 40:17 “He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together.

Cedar can grow up to 130 feet and that is just the tail of this Behemoth.

It says "bends his tail like a cedar" not "his tail is as long as a cedar". That's an important difference. As I've explained before, even if the behemoth was a living dinosaur, it wouldn't falsify evolution.

 

[JM2C]

Where does it say 130 feet? You are only assuming the verse is describing its length rather than the flexibility of the tail as a parallel to the flexibility of a ceder. You are injecting information not within the verse.

BLB - Job 40: The Trials of Job 40 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)


None of the words suggest length

If I describe an elephant I would probably use a tree to describe the height. I did not say 130 feet but it can grow up to 130 feet.

JOB 40:17 “He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together.

Cedar can grow up to 130 feet and that is just the tail of this Behemoth.

A tendon (or sinew) is a tough band of fibrous connective tissue that usually connects muscle to bone[1] and is capable of withstanding tension. Tendons are similar to ligaments and fasciae; all three are made of collagen.

“The sinews of his thighs are knit together.” The T-rex’s femur or thigh is where they found the tissue or collagen/sinew. Do you think this is just a coincidence, or it’s God’s work?