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Harsh Truth: If Intelligent Design is Untestable . . .

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
No, Sedimentary strata cannot come from "everywhere".
Contradicting Darwin’s theory “On the imperfect geological record”earth’s surface is constantly in flux”
They have to be deposited in relation to other strata around them and that means that they can be given dates. They just can't be directly dates which is why they often have a wider date range assigned to them.
Have you ever heard of floods. Flood carries sediment or particles from one place into another place as they were move by water in a drainage bed and once they settled on water and dries out it hardens and form around bones and fossilized it.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
That is not circular in any way.

Igneous rocks can be dated, that gives the age of those rocks. That's it. Sedimentary rocks, where fossils can be found, can be given date ranges by dating igneous rock layers around them.
You are just rephrasing my statement.
False all the way around.
There is only one thing you guys are agreeing with each other, i.e., going after my statements, but as far as having the same answer or mind, totally contradicting each other.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There is only one thing you guys are agreeing with each other, i.e., going after my statements, but as far as having the same answer or mind, totally contradicting each other.
I wasn't commenting on any of your posts but just making a generic statement.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
How so? Why a message can’t be a question? This is what Darwin was saying: “It will be more convenient to discuss this question in the chapter on the Imperfection of the Geological Record;”

In reference to “"But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?

What is the “Imperfection of the Geological Record” theory in chapter 9? It’s a geological gap that no scientist has ever recorded but only in a theory based on Darwin’s friend, Charles Lyell’s Principles of Geology. Now, if there is no geological record because the “earth’s surface is constantly in flux” then the argument of finding them in “countless numbers” cannot be refute at all.
Chapter 9 is not a new scientific theory. It's a section where Darwin discusses the numerous possible reasons for the lack of "countless" fossils being found in the fossil record. I gave you those well known reasons in a post you have yet to respond to. And it's already been pointed out to you that despite those reason, thousands and thousands of fossils have indeed been found since Darwin's day. And it's further been pointed out to you that the evidence for the theory of evolution certainly does not rest solely on the fossil record you keep harping on about.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I agree semantic debates are fruitless, but the word 'science' can range from applying to a research scientist at 3M who formulates a demonstrably stickier roll of tape,

to the way it is more often used in pop science, a label slapped on sensational speculations on Godless universe creating mechanisms, anthropomorphic climate processes, earthlike exoplanets and missing links which are often baseless and thoroughly debunked after the headline.
If you are actually interested in the science you can separate what is legitimate and what is "pop". You will also know that "pop" is not considered fact but simply intriguing concepts or findings. When it is accepted as fact it is only because of overwhelming evidence.
There is a reason we stock juries with a representative cross section of the public and not lawyers, even though the latter would be the 'qualified experts', which is impartiality- it's the lawyers job to make the case, present the evidence, not hand down sentences based on their personal opinions of their own evidence- which we already know.

Similarly it's the scientists job to present objective evidence, if it is self evident enough it will be accepted, and this just can't be done for evolution to the extent that it is persuasive to the general public.
False. We stock the jury with our common idiots (bad idea in my opinion) because in England there was a concept where a panel of the same people determined the fate of everyone who went through the court system. The American system hated his concept of total power and control of our lives. Our jury system is incredibly flawed and subject to interpret-able statements and its why we have such a highly screwed up system where the person with the highest paid lawyer tends to win rather than the logical or moral person.
When the 'experts' claimed a static universe, the jury of the 'uneducated masses' were not convinced, nor were they that classical physics adequately accounted for the entire universe, nor are they convinced of evolution, and I think the same rationale applies to all 3- entropy, the universe and life would collapse left to simple laws and random chance, without specific guiding instructions towards specific goals.
And evidence changed their minds. Doesn't matter what they had they all changed their minds and we no longer abide by the static universe model. If we had obvious evidence that the universe was not static and the experts remained in the concept then you would have an argument. But they don't and you don't. People used to believe that bile was a good thing and would actually rub fresh bile into wounds to help it heal. Now we know that is gross and harmful. Are you going to knock all modern medicine because there were bad theories in the past.

You are full of nothing but hot hair. Evidence is the only thing that matters. Evolution has mountains of evidence. ID has none. There is no legitimate argument against evolution and simply saying "oh well the common idiot things this" or "theories change all the time" aren't arguments against it.

Just admit you have nothing against evolution.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
You don't "measure half-lives", which is what you claimed.
Oh yes you do! Half-lives are theoretical age used to calculate the age of igneous rocks. If you don’t used half-lives you simply cannot arrive to any conclusion as far as age of any fossils and sedimentary strata. So, theoretically, the ages of fossils are all based on another theory, and that is, dating igneous rocks, and dating igneous rocks based on another theory of half-lives of elements found in it.

For example, when a sample of the lava in the Mt. St. Helens crater (that had been observed to form and cool in 1986) was analyzed in 1996, it contained so much argon-40 that it had a calculated “age” of 350,000 years!

Now, how did they get 350,000 years in just 10 years? Half-life is the answer. Therefore, half-lives are nothing but a theory and in this case it was proven to be wrong, wasn’t it?

If you measure this same rock found in Mt. St. Helens using the rubidium and strontium isotopes you would get over a billion years.

IOW, each elements are calibrated into each own millions of years. If you get 350,000 years in potassium/argon isotopes then you would probably get over a billion years in rubidium/strontium isotopes sampling the same rock.

You measure the ages of rocks by measuring the relative quantities of specific radioactive isotopes in the materials. Half-lives are used to calculate the age based on the measurements of those isotope ratios.
Same argument you are just rephrasing my statements.

Rocks are not "like clocks". Its a gross oversimplification that I suspect you are using because you don't understand the underlying science. Just use the correct terminology which you can get from Wikipedia.
A good analogy is the hourglass clock just turn it upside down and think of it as decaying and when you reach half then that is what you call half-life and when reach another half another half-life and so on. You can’t argue from this man.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
Chapter 9 is not a new scientific theory. It's a section where Darwin discusses the numerous possible reasons for the lack of "countless" fossils being found in the fossil record.

I gave you those well known reasons in a post you have yet to respond to. And it's already been pointed out to you that despite those reason, thousands and thousands of fossils have indeed been found since Darwin's day.
And what are those again? I believed you posted this: “Thus the geological record will almost necessarily be rendered intermittent. I feel much confidence in the truth of these views, for they are in strict accordance with the general principals inculcated by Sir C. Lyell; and E. Forbes independently arrived at a similar conclusion.” (page 201)

IOW, the main reason is “the Imperfection of Geological Record”

And it's further been pointed out to you that the evidence for the theory of evolution certainly does not rest solely on the fossil record you keep harping on about.
Until you explain it to me on how you guys got the 3,200,000 years on fossils.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Now, how did they get 350,000 years in just 10 years? Half-life is the answer. Therefore, half-lives are nothing but a theory and in this case it was proven to be wrong, wasn’t it?

If you measure this same rock found in Mt. St. Helens using the rubidium and strontium isotopes you would get over a billion years.

IOW, each elements are calibrated into each own millions of years. If you get 350,000 years in potassium/argon isotopes then you would probably get over a billion years in rubidium/strontium isotopes sampling the same rock.

Austin's claims, which lends you a sense of accomplishment in your arguments...
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdo...26C8287449353B4FDC5C1DD6C?doi=10.1.1.375.7540

Mt. St. Helens and Catastrophism | The Institute for Creation Research

RAPID EROSION AT MOUNT ST. HELENS | The Institute for Creation Research

https://www.icr.org/i/pdf/technical/Mount-St-Helens-and-Catastrophism.pdf

Please note that in Austin's official paper he cites himself as a source 3 times...

Rebuttals:
Young-Earth Creationist 'Dating' of a Mt. St. Helens Dacite: The Failure of Austin and Swenson to Recognize Obviously Ancient Minerals

Creation Science Rebuttals, Dacite Dating

A Visit To The ICR, by Karen Bartelt

How Old Is the Mount St. Helens Lava Dome?


Please note that the only place where this claim about radio-metric dating being flawed arises is among similar Creationist websites. It is shared nowhere in the academic, scholarly, or scientific communities. There have been no retorts from the Creationist camp to the rebuttals posited - they simply keep repeating the same inaccurate claim over and over again.

If you'd like to learn more for yourself, please take a Geology course or head on over to your public library to see what they have to offer. The explanations to these supposed "problems" with geology or with the science of dating things is covered in even the most basic introductory courses.

Steve Austin has a PHd in Geology yet for some reason refuses to acknowledge the very known limitations of certain dating methods. Since he does this, I think one has to call into question the weight that his degree carries... What's the point of the title if you do nothing with it? What's the point of knowledge if you undermine the foundations of your knowledge in order to make your preferred superstition fit?
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
If you are actually interested in the science you can separate what is legitimate and what is "pop". You will also know that "pop" is not considered fact but simply intriguing concepts or findings. When it is accepted as fact it is only because of overwhelming evidence.

False. We stock the jury with our common idiots (bad idea in my opinion) because in England there was a concept where a panel of the same people determined the fate of everyone who went through the court system. The American system hated his concept of total power and control of our lives. Our jury system is incredibly flawed and subject to interpret-able statements and its why we have such a highly screwed up system where the person with the highest paid lawyer tends to win rather than the logical or moral person.

And evidence changed their minds. Doesn't matter what they had they all changed their minds and we no longer abide by the static universe model. If we had obvious evidence that the universe was not static and the experts remained in the concept then you would have an argument. But they don't and you don't. People used to believe that bile was a good thing and would actually rub fresh bile into wounds to help it heal. Now we know that is gross and harmful. Are you going to knock all modern medicine because there were bad theories in the past.

You are full of nothing but hot hair. Evidence is the only thing that matters. Evolution has mountains of evidence. ID has none. There is no legitimate argument against evolution and simply saying "oh well the common idiot things this" or "theories change all the time" aren't arguments against it.

Just admit you have nothing against evolution.


, Hoyle still rejected the Big Bang & very much 'remained in the concept' he coined till his dying day, despite decades of evidence as science slowly won out over atheism, no nobel prize for Lemaitre on his deathbed by this time who is barely even known for the greatest scientific discovery of all time.

In stark contrast, the Big Crunch (still chasing the same old no creation= no creator guideline) was immediately considered plausible and or accepted until disproven beyond reasonable doubt, a stark double standard- and it's author still proclaimed the worlds greatest living scientist having got the entire nature of the universe literally ***-backwards.

So we just have to accept we have a difference of opinion re. academic elite v common science, Stalin replaced the farming techniques of the 'common idiots' with superior academic elite science, and staved millions to death.



I agree evidence is key, not academic opinion, not institutionalized consensus or state cirriculum

galaxies appearing red shifted the further away you look is observational scientific evidence. "we strongly suspect this is an illusion' in contrast was academic opinion based on a preferred explicit atheist conclusion

likewise

fossils appearing 'as if just planted there with no evolutionary history' is observational evidence- 'We strongly suspect this is because... da da da'' again is merely academic conjecture based on atheist preferences
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
, Hoyle still rejected the Big Bang & very much 'remained in the concept' he coined till his dying day, despite decades of evidence as science slowly won out over atheism, no nobel prize for Lemaitre on his deathbed by this time who is barely even known for the greatest scientific discovery of all time.

In stark contrast, the Big Crunch (still chasing the same old no creation= no creator guideline) was immediately considered plausible and or accepted until disproven beyond reasonable doubt, a stark double standard- and it's author still proclaimed the worlds greatest living scientist having got the entire nature of the universe literally ***-backwards.
And yet the scientific community changed its opinion to fit the evidence. There were several "possible" models that were all equally valid until further evidence provided the answer for one. Big crunch was based off of evidence and so was the rest. Further evidence threw it out. Minds were changed and no one said that big crunch was a fact. It wasn't a theory created to disprove god it was a valid theory with the information at hand.
So we just have to accept we have a difference of opinion re. academic elite v common science, Stalin replaced the farming techniques of the 'common idiots' with superior academic elite science, and staved millions to death.
Stalin didn't have the best interests of people in mind. Stalin wasn't a scientist. There wasn't evidence that his techniques were better. In fact the evidence proved otherwise and no scientific establishment ever insisted we use Stalin's methods. Your point here is meaningless.


I agree evidence is key, not academic opinion, not institutionalized consensus or state cirriculum

galaxies appearing red shifted the further away you look is observational scientific evidence. "we strongly suspect this is an illusion' in contrast was academic opinion based on a preferred explicit atheist conclusion
The evidence supported what we eventually accepted. There was no atheist conclusion. This is a conspiracy theory that many theists have because science and its evidences don't point to their theological beliefs.
likewise

fossils appearing 'as if just planted there with no evolutionary history' is observational evidence- 'We strongly suspect this is because... da da da'' again is merely academic conjecture based on atheist preferences
They strongly suspect this is because "supporting evidence here". Its not pure conjecture. It is based off evidence and there is no evidence that they suddenly came from nothing. In fact we have since the quote you have used, FOUND evidence of pre-Cambrian animals.

Do you have some sort of evidence against evolution at this point or are you arguing abiogensis? Because the animals in the Cambrian explosion are absolutely nothing like the vast majority animals we have today. Even if (and we know it wasn't because we have evidence of life prior to this) life was created during the Cambrian explosion evolution is true regardless because we have the fossil evidence and the DNA evidence that tracks life since then.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
fossils appearing 'as if just planted there with no evolutionary history' is observational evidence- 'We strongly suspect this is because... da da da'' again is merely academic conjecture based on atheist preferences

That quote was a specific point being made about creationist arguments. It was a specific point being made - not observational evidence for creationism.

Why is it not observational evidence?

Because we have:


STROMATOLITES
Stromatolites_underwater_md.jpg


Prokaryotic Eubacteria & Archaea Cells
Archaeat.jpg


Eukaryotes
origin1small.gif


Nemaia Simplex
b95.jpg


Endiacaran Organisms
1024px-DickinsoniaCostata.jpg


Parvancorina minchami
parvancorina_minchami_2.jpg


Arthropods, like the Trilobite
trilobite_proteus_fossil_a__83856.jpg


BOOM.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
And what are those again? I believed you posted this: “Thus the geological record will almost necessarily be rendered intermittent. I feel much confidence in the truth of these views, for they are in strict accordance with the general principals inculcated by Sir C. Lyell; and E. Forbes independently arrived at a similar conclusion.” (page 201)
That fossilization is a very rare process. That most of the earth hasn't yet been geologically explored. That sections of the geological record are separated by "wide intervals of time" which makes it difficult to find closely related species together in the fossil record because animals tend to migrate from the places their ancestors may have inhabited. He also discussed difficulties in naming and categorizing various species of animals. I suggest reading my post again, or better yet, the entire chapter of Darwin's book, if you've forgotten already.
IOW, the main reason is “the Imperfection of Geological Record”
It's the title of a chapter in the book, not a scientific theory.
Until you explain it to me on how you guys got the 3,200,000 years on fossils.
I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
. . . Then Darwinian Evolution is untestable. If intelligent design is unfalsifiable, then Darwinian evolution is unprovable.
1) Darwinian evolution isn't really accepted by any specialists in evolutionary theory; it's just a convenient term for a vastly more complex, interdisplinary field involving multiple theories.
2) Evolutionary theory has successfully constructed models of biological processes which have predictive power. It isn't simply an explanation, but a theory or theoretical framework within which we have been able to develop and test hypotheses about everything from the life sciences to computational intelligence paradigms.
3) "Intelligent design" lacks predictive power, offers post hoc explanations rather than models, and has increasingly lost ground as its claims have shown to be false.
4) Nothing in "Logic 101" supports the inference that given two opposing views, epistemology dictates something like a one-to-one relationship between evidence or the possibility of evidence for one and corresponding evidence for the other.


They're opposing answers to the same question

So is the answer that life arose from smurfs, that we're all in the Matrix, that this is all your dream, that life arose through the magic, and so on. There are infinitely many opposing answers to the any specific answer, and thanks to the properties of infinitely many options the probability that any are a priori likely is 0. However, evolutionary theory has vast amounts of evidence and entire fields supporting it.

Any evidence for one will be evidence against the other.
Wrong. Genetics and epigenetics are evidence for evolutionary theory but aren't evidence against intelligent design, which is deliberately constructed so as to not make this the case.
Any proof of one will be proof against the other. proving one will falsify the other (and vice versa).

When Darwinists say we can't falsify the claim that biology is a product of design, they're unwittingly confessing that they can't prove biology is the product of blind nature.
Or they have some basic familiarity with epistemology, the philosophy of science, and what "proof" means to scientists.

The only reasonable conclusion is that either both are science, or neither is science.
How unfortunate.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
When will you start an actual debate? and stop proselytizing?
Having doubts already? Dalai Lama was once asked what he would do if science proved that his beliefs were erroneous, not that I believed in his religion, but he said in a heartbeat, “I’d change my mind.”

You should too if creationist proved that evolution is erroneous.
 
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