Do American troops "defend freedom"?

[Skwim]

i consider the source of the article and have only one response......bull****

I take you are/were am member of the armed forces or your grandmother was, and I can imagine how devastating the article is to your sense of self pride or your pride in your grandmother, but in any case there's still a lot of truth to it.

 

[esmith]

Interesting article. I'm largely in agreement, with one or two reservations.

I'm reminded of Calvin Coolidge's "The business of America, is business."
But, to an increasing extent, both 'the government' and the military are becoming subsidiaries of corporate interests.
Care to expand?

I take you are/were am member of the armed forces or your grandmother was, and I can imagine how devastating the article is to your sense of self pride or your pride in your grandmother, but in any case there's still a lot of truth to it.

The military does what it is asked of them, it is not their duty to question the orders given to it by the Commander in Chief, that you and I elect. If any of you have a problem with the military I suggest you look in the mirror. The problem you perceive is with the people that is put into office by your votes, not the military.
As far as your asinine comment Skwim..... Yeah we have pride in the branch of the service we served in and do serve in. We were and are willing to put down our lives for our comrades and those that we were and are duty bound to protect. However, there were times that I wondered if there were those that really didn't deserve the sacrifices that were made for them; however we did our best and there are those that will continue to do what is asked of them.

I think it can be summed up by the motto of the US Military Academy.
Duty Honor Country
And those words are taken by the majority of the members of the military in the order written.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Not really, no. But it's not the fault of the average serviceman and woman. It's the government's fault and the financial and power-play interests they're beholden to. Most of us are but slaves in America.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Troops defend themselves and their superiors. It's paramount to follow orders and not question them, including offensive operations. Many are there out of a sense of patriotism, but others see service as an alternative to welfare and to help gain. U.S. citizenship.

Troops can question orders that seem unlawful, but it's not an easy process.

I'm sure every theater of operation is touted as being an act of preserving U.S. freedom no matter what.

 

[Valjean]

The military does what it is asked of them, it is not their duty to question the orders given to it by the Commander in Chief, that you and I elect. If any of you have a problem with the military I suggest you look in the mirror. The problem you perceive is with the people that is put into office by your votes, not the military.

It certainly is their duty to question orders -- and to refuse illegal orders or wars. There'd be a lot less misery in the world if people took this as an imperative.

As for blaming the people, the people are generally kept in the dark about our foreign adventures, and those we put into office are vetted by the aristocracy before they ever appear on ballots. Moreover, once elected, leaders are less swayed by the desires of the people than by the influence of the economic elites. http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

Conservatives make much of taking individual responsibility for one's actions, so why does a soldier get a pass?
"Just following orders" doesn't cut it. A Mafia hit man could make the same appeal to loyalty and duty.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Absent a conscripted military force, the best way to entice impressionable, young men is by appealing to their sense of duty and loyalty.

 

[Sunstone]

The actual purpose of the US Military is to help young men and women to "be all they can be". I know that's the case because I've seen the advertisements that tell me it's the case.

 

[McBell]

I see little honor in anything soldiers have done for America since ww2, and then I still wouldn't claim the majority of them had "honor".
What about being a soldier is so honorable? Shooting at others when asked? That never made sense to me.

Spoken like someone who has never been exposed to the military other than through the media....

Tell me, do you honestly think military personal just sit around waiting for the order to shoot someone?
Sure sounds like.

 

[Kapalika]

i consider the source of the article and have only one response......bull****

Attacking the person/source and not the substance of the article is a logical fallacy, you know.

This attitude is exactly what the article is pointing out is HURTING us from being able to help our veterans and think more carefully about the problems we are facing both in so many senseless wars we fight and sexual abuse in the military.

My problem with the article is that he is presenting the exception as the norm then attacking all the military over it.

Quite the contrary, it takes a rather balanced approach of saying that there are both good and bad people in the military.

The only 'kicker' is that it doesn't matter if our foreign policy is not honorable to begin with. The article is suggesting how we can open up the discussion about sexual abuse in the military, war crimes, foreign policy and caring for our veterans.

Pretty typical of Salon.com. Most of their readers wouldn't really notice as it plays into existing narratives.

See what I said above in this post.

You are not being part of the solution, by dismissing it you are working against all victims of the senseless wars and the soldiers who come back homeless, hurt, jobless ect as well as the countless civilians who die for corporate interests.

However, there were times that I wondered if there were those that really didn't deserve the sacrifices that were made for them; however we did our best and there are those that will continue to do what is asked of them.

I think it can be summed up by the motto of the US Military Academy.
Duty Honor Country
And those words are taken by the majority of the members of the military in the order written.

How can soldiers be honorable if the actions and wars they partake in are not honorable to begin with?

And what sacrifices has the military made for *me* or the average American in any of these wars? All I can see is them dying or killing for what ultimately was about money.

It seems more likely to me that our culture never grew out of the WW2 mindset. The cold war kept it going (which was driven by money... the defense industry engineered this idea that the Russians was making stockpiles when they were not and got Americans to start the arms race all so they could sell their weapons) but after the fall of the Soviets the War on Terror was soon to take over.

No one really was afraid and the government wasn't too concerned until 9/11, but that was after many failed attempts by Al Qaeda to attack the WTC. They basically just got extremely lucky. But even with that, to wipe out the entire organization didn't require us to GIVE UP our freedoms!

From the Patriot Act to the NSA scandal, how have any of our rights been protected?! The military is a tool of the state, and it has done NOTHING to protect our rights as they have been chipped away. On the contrary the military has been used to destabilize entire regions leading to wars, the rise of ISIL, and other groups to rise to power which have actually in many ways limited the rights and safety of hundreds of millions of people in an entire region of the world!

If we are to praise anyone for protecting our rights at this point, it should be the whistle blowers, the lawyers, the activists and the *real* heroes in the military like Chelsea Manning ect who let us know a lot of what was really going on.

Honor isn't something tied to an organization, Honor is about integrity. Integrity isn't derived from authority!!!

 

[Revoltingest]

People don't become "honorable" just because they belong to some vaunted organization.
Honor is something personal.
A soldier might or might not have it.

 

[Kapalika]

My family is ex-military and share the same views as me.
Don't make snap judgements.

Of course not, I get that there are other things soldiers need to do.
I was saying I don't think anything they are required to do by their occupation is particularly honor worthy. There are soldiers who deserve honor, but the way the public acts like soldiers are a bunch of gold-hearted do-gooders is just wrong.

I think this is a reasonable sentiment...

I remember when I was 13 a soldier came home to a church and was greeted so warmly and praised and practically worshiped. He didn't seem to understand how to receive it and instead said all he had done is join the military and do his job. I think he didn't expect people to so blindly respect him and straight up praise him just for simply being in the military.

 

[Kapalika]

I want to note for people that I'm not anti military. I tried to join the military but couldn't due to health reasons, and both of my grandparents were in the Navy. My great uncle was in WW2 as a Marine and I own his old Kabar. I still have some stuff I got from a recruiter sitting around in a box. In no way am I against the military.

What I am against is how they are used, and how often the mistreatment of them is overlooked, and how too often commanders and others cover up the misdeeds of *some* of the service men and women, sometimes even against each other.

 

[McBell]

My family is ex-military and share the same views as me.
Don't make snap judgements.

Of course not, I get that there are other things soldiers need to do.
I was saying I don't think anything they are required to do by their occupation is particularly honor worthy. There are soldiers who deserve honor, but the way the public acts like soldiers are a bunch of gold-hearted do-gooders is just wrong.

Perhaps you are unaware of how many soldiers are living in the streets...
... because the public acts like soldiers are a bunch of gold-hearted do-gooders?

Rather difficult to take you seriously at this point.

 

[Kapalika]

Perhaps you are unaware of how many soldiers are living in the streets...
... because the public acts like soldiers are a bunch of gold-hearted do-gooders?

Rather difficult to take you seriously at this point.

Isn't this just more proof that the government just sees the military as pawns and that we should do something to change about it? They can easily afford to take care of veterans, but choose not to because there is no profit in it.

 

[McBell]

Isn't this just more proof that the government just sees the military as pawns and that we should do something to change about it? They can easily afford to take care of veterans, but choose not to because there is no profit in it.

Wait, is the thread about how the government sees the military or about how the public wrongfully worships the military like gods?

 

[Kapalika]

Wait, is the thread about how the government sees the military or about how the public wrongfully worships the military like gods?

Why can't it be a multifaceted issue with many issues being related?

Because of the worship of the military, it prevents a real dialog. The article talked veteran homelessness among other issues such as rape within the military as issues that get lost in the patriotic, unquestioning fervor.

We can't begin to figure out how to fix an issue if we don't first understand the issue.

 

[McBell]

Why can't it be a multifaceted issue with many issues being related?

Fair enough

Because of the worship of the military, it prevents a real dialog.

I call bull ****.
mainly because I fail to see this alleged "worship" of the military.

The article talked veteran homelessness among other issues such as rape within the military as issues that get lost in the patriotic, unquestioning fervor.

So you think all Muslims are terrorists, right?
I mean that is all you see in the media....
How is this alleged military "worship" any different?

We can't begin to figure out how to fix an issue if we don't first understand the issue.

Agreed.
However, until such time as the public "worships" the military like you and Strategic Philosopher claim, you are not actually dealing with the issue at all.

 

[McBell]

Well, when a middle class man in uniform walks down the street you get people stopping to shake his or her hand but when they are starving on the side of the road without a uniform the right wing xenophobes have no way of identifying them without having to Ugh, talk to a poor person.

Which shows your claim of military "worship" by the public to be a big steaming pile of bull ****.

Thank you for furthering my point.

 

[esmith]

Well, when a middle class man in uniform walks down the street you get people stopping to shake his or her hand but when they are starving on the side of the road without a uniform the right wing xenophobes have no way of identifying them without having to Ugh, talk to a poor person.

Guess you wasn't around in the 60's.

 

[esmith]

Well, when a middle class man in uniform walks down the street you get people stopping to shake his or her hand but when they are starving on the side of the road without a uniform the right wing xenophobes have no way of identifying them without having to Ugh, talk to a poor person.

Guess you wasn't around in the 60's.

No. Why does that in any way matter?

Well let's put is this way......have you every been spit on, or called baby-killers, or some other words that would probably get censored. There were times in our history, a very short time ago as a matter of fact, that the military was looked upon as sub-species by various so called "enlightened" citizens.