Thank God for the Prophets.....

[Windwalker]

As you know, the intellect has never impressed me much.

It has its limits!

 

[Windwalker]

Wow, just . . . wow.

Wow.

I wish everybody's covers were that easy to pull.

So... you're a troll? (BTW, I see straight through this. Like I said, don't keep digging your own hole. A break will serve you better)

 

[Quagmire]

So... you're a troll?

Just wanted to get a peek at the real you, bud.

All I can say now is, "ta da!"

 

[Kenny]

However, depending on the preacher... many tell people they risk hell if they don't believe. That's much, much worse than holding a knife to a child's throat, isn't it? Have you ever uttered such words to an innocent one?

no argument here on this one. But are you refering to what the prophet said or what the preacher said

Not really sure your train of logic here.

When you know that the person is telling the truth, doesn't that settle it?

You should read what I wrote a little more closely. You'll see in detail how I explain that it is.

Or maybe you could explain it better?

Huh?

don't worry about that comment.

 

[Windwalker]

Just wanted to get a peek at the real you, bud.

All I can say now is, "ta da!"

Ta da? You are clueless, and if I could place you on ignore, you'd be there. Waste of time.

 

[Katzpur]

You know the problem with this? Even if God said it, you might misunderstand it. Do you understand everything I'm saying? Do you interpret my words through your mind and your experiences? If God spoke a sentence to you about something, are you sure you'd get it? What if it was the words someone else wrote down that I had told them, and then you were to read that? Would the misunderstanding lessen or grow?

Well, I don't know for sure, and that's all I know for sure. But I do know that I don't really worry too awfully much about the "truths" that human beings tell me. If I am convinced that a "truth" has been revealed to me by God, I can feel comfortable with it.

 

[Windwalker]

no argument here on this one. But are you refering to what the prophet said or what the preacher said

Does it matter? A threat of hell from either source is not love, it's fear. It's worse than a knife to the throat. It's terrorism. Have you ever held that in front of a little one as a preacher? I hope not. You may have to account for that at some point.

When you know that the person is telling the truth, doesn't that settle it?

First of all, a child saying they were molested is not an "opinion" in any sense of the word. It's a report. If the other said they didn't, that's not an opinion either. It's a denial of stated events. None of these have to do with opinions.

Or maybe you could explain it better?

Since I don't want to retype all of that, I'll just help by directing you to where I said it. See:

Posts
28: Thank God for the Prophets.....
and
29 Thank God for the Prophets.....

 

[Kenny]

It really depends on how one views the level of authority that matters. Like anyone, I respect and listen to experts in their fields, but I also listen to other experts and consider options of what I should say I believe in, at that time. However, when you say the prophet is God speaking, you are saying to others, or more importantly to yourself, "Do not question anything!". It is giving yourself the excuse to not think!

I agree completely

Does it matter? A threat of hell from either source is not love, it's fear. It's worse than a knife to the throat. It's terrorism. Have you ever held that in front of a little one as a preacher? I hope not. You may have to account for that at some point.

First of all, a child saying they were molested is not an "opinion" in any sense of the word. It's a report. If the other said they didn't, that's not an opinion either. It's a denial of stated events. None of these have to do with opinions.

..

The rest sounds like you have a chip on your shoulders.

 

[Katzpur]

You know the problem with this? Even if God said it, you might misunderstand it. Do you understand everything I'm saying? Do you interpret my words through your mind and your experiences? If God spoke a sentence to you about something, are you sure you'd get it? What if it was the words someone else wrote down that I had told them, and then you were to read that? Would the misunderstanding lessen or grow?

I think I could understand direct communication from God to me with less of a chance of misinterpreting it than I could understand what someone else says God told him. Since God knows me perfectly, I think He could take into account my own mind and experiences and speak clearly enough to me that I could understand.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Wow, this is a really great post! I like it a lot. But I will clarify one thing I think may help refine this, without diving too deep into it. You said, "we listen as if they are telling us, and that is just us talking to ourselves about ourselves. Nonsense of course, but hey that's normal." That is exactly correct, however I would not call that nonsense. On the contrary, they become a vehicle for our inner voices to project out of us, in order for us to hear and listen to ourselves, our subconscious, or unconscious voices. That is what music does (I am a musician as well). This is the power of myth, as Joseph Campbell would have expressed. A good myth has legs, as it can be interpreted so many ways, in some many different times and contexts.

But the danger is, when you do not recognize that it is part of you, that the prophets are an extension of you, and you instead take it as wholly external and authoritative over you, even when your own gut is saying "I don't buy that". At that point, you have surrendered your soul to be crushed underfoot by an authoritarian ruler. "Don't trust yourself, trust me!," when said to something you find distressing or wrong on level, is anything but about spiritual growth. It's about fear and hiding under the guise you'll be safe if you don't question it. Now you are projecting the prophet as your own jail-keeper.

It seems the problem perhaps isn't prophets, per se, but ourselves and how we either use them for good for us to better ourselves, or evil to hide from ourselves using them as the excuse for our lack of courage to grow, which means facing our inner voices. They instead become an expression of our cowardice, at such a point.

It sounds like varnished dogmatism to say that this or that is the only way a person could be spiritual or could spiritually or intellectually grow. If believing in prophets works for someone and they don't hurt anyone else because of it, good for them, in my opinion.

I do agree. Exercise intuition when sussing one out though. Listen to the heart, not what makes you impressed intellectually.

Well, this explains a lot about this thread, but I can't say I'm convinced, myself.

 

[Windwalker]

The rest sounds like you have a chip on your shoulders.

Oh yes. Much like Jesus had a chip on his shoulder about the religious frauds of his day.

 

[Windwalker]

I think I could understand direct communication from God to me with less of a chance of misinterpreting it than I could understand what someone else says God told him. Since God knows me perfectly, I think He could take into account my own mind and experiences and speak clearly enough to me that I could understand.

Yes, surely. If he spoke directly to you, rather than you trying to figure out what he meant through the mind of another. Has that happened for you yet?

 

[Windwalker]

It sounds like varnished dogmatism to say that this or that is the only way a person could be spiritual or could spiritually or intellectually grow. If believing in prophets works for someone and they don't hurt anyone else because of it, good for them, in my opinion.

Until the point it doesn't work. Then what? What is your solution? Status quo? I doubt that.

Well, this explains a lot about this thread, but I can't say I'm convinced, myself.

Not asking you to be. Should it have to be what you can reason?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Until the point it doesn't work. Then what? What is your solution? Status quo? I doubt that.

If one method stops working, thinking about another method sounds most reasonable to me. What that method is isn't set in stone, as far as I can see, especially since matters of spirituality aren't usually very empirically testable.

 

[Windwalker]

If one method stops working, thinking about another method sounds most reasonable to me. What that method is isn't set in stone, as far as I can see, especially since matters of spirituality aren't usually very empirically testable.

Oh I agree! I'm not delusional enough to believe this can be empirically explored.

 

[Katzpur]

Yes, surely. If he spoke directly to you, rather than you trying to figure out what he meant through the mind of another. Has that happened for you yet?

Relative to certain issues, yes.

 

[Trailblazer]

The best eastern teachers say to question, even what they are saying. They say to experience their teachings for yourself, so that you KNOW rather than believe. But this 'knowing' of spiritual things is not likely to come easily in our novice meditation experiences, so we have to intellectually judge these masters and decide to follow what they say as a theory until we can know for ourselves.

Yes, it is different than the Abrahamic fundamentalism, which I think was more what you were criticizing.

Eastern traditions are different from Abrahamic fundamentalism but they are not that different from my religion since it enjoins independent investigation of truth.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

“The principles of the Teachings of Bahá’u’lláh should be carefully studied, one by one, until they are realized and understood by mind and heart—so will you become strong followers of the light, truly spiritual, heavenly soldiers of God, acquiring and spreading the true civilization in Persia, in Europe, and in the whole world.” Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 22

All the Abrahamic Prophets enjoined us to question their claims.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.

The tests He proposed are the same as those laid down by His great predecessors. Moses said:—
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.—Deut. xviii, 22.

Christ put His test just as plainly, and appealed to it in proof of His own claim. He said:—
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.—Matt. vii, 15–17, 20”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

 

[Trailblazer]

Windwalker said: ↑
To put a finer point on it, yes I was talking about the Abrahamic ideas of prophets as oracles of God. They speak "revelation" as chosen ones, and their words are not their owns, but God's. So therefore, if you don't think for yourself but just follow them it is perceived that you'll be safe.

Akivah said: That might be the christian view of prophets, but it isn't the Jewish view.
In Judaism, our prophets only speak the words of G-d. If they come up with their own words which differ from the Torah, this proves that they are not prophets. We think for ourselves so that within our own facts and circumstances, we can be in accordance with Torah.

Don’t Jews believe that Moses received a revelation from God on Mt. Sinai? Wasn’t Moses the one primarily responsible for the Torah?

When you said “our prophets” were you referring to all the prophets in the Torah other than Moses? Are you saying that if those prophets disagree with what Moses revealed in the Torah that proves that they are not prophets? Finally, don’t Jews believe that Moses was the greatest Prophet that ever lived?

I apologize; I am not very familiar with the Torah or the Bible but I recently started posting to two Jewish posters on another forum so I have learned a few things about Judaism. I would consider them very orthodox Jews so your beliefs might differ.

 

[Trailblazer]

The rest sounds like you have a chip on your shoulders.

I have been on forums having these kinds of discussions about Prophets for five years. It is usually nonbelievers who do not like the idea of Prophets and obviously they do not believe in them. The reasons why nonbelievers do not like the idea of Prophets run the gamut, but there are two main reasons.

One reason is that they think all Prophets are either delusional or fraudulent con-men, men imagining or pretending that God spoke to them when God never really did. The other reason nonbelievers do not like the idea of Prophets because they think that God should communicate directly to everyone instead of using a Prophet... I can understand why nonbelievers do not like the idea of Prophets even though I do not agree with them.

I am fairly new to this forum and this is the first time I have encountered people who believe in God but do not like Prophets. One does not need a degree in psychology to figure out why some believers do not like Prophets. They hide behind many smokescreens but the reasons are too obvious to hide since it comes across in their speech. Here are some of the more obvious reasons these people do not like Prophets:

1. Prophets claim to know more about God than they do
2. Prophets claim to receive direct communication from God whereas they don’t
3. Prophets speak with great authority and reveal teachings and laws they do not want to follow

These believers think they can know as much or more than Prophets of God, so obviously they have no use for Prophets, but they completely overlook the fact that the rest of humanity needs Prophets and that is the only reason humanity has survived and thrived throughout the ages. If God had never sent any Prophets, humanity would have ceased to exist a long time ago.

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.......

But when we speak of religion we mean the essential foundation or reality of religion, not the dogmas and blind imitations which have gradually encrusted it and which are the cause of the decline and effacement of a nation. These are inevitably destructive and a menace and hindrance to a nation’s life,—even as it is recorded in the Torah and confirmed in history that when the Jews became fettered by empty forms and imitations the wrath of God became manifest.......

What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 270, 272, 273

 

[Windwalker]

I am fairly new to this forum and this is the first time I have encountered people who believe in God but do not like Prophets. One does not need a degree in psychology to figure out why some believers do not like Prophets.

Actually, I think it may help to have one, considering what you speculate as the reasons miss the mark by miles. Let me explain....

They hide behind many smokescreens but the reasons are too obvious to hide since it comes across in their speech. Here are some of the more obvious reasons these people do not like Prophets:

1. Prophets claim to know more about God than they do

I have no problem in acknowledging the insights of others as beyond mine presently, but I do have a problem with the notion that they are beyond what we ourselves are capable of. To deify these, to "kick them upstairs" removes them from the rest of humanity and states to believers, "You can never become like them".

I consider that a reasonable and completely justifiable complaint, and from a psychological profile, since you bring that up, I would say this deification process of mythologizing the prophets is a projection of a lower fear about oneself. "I can never be like that, so that way when I fail I'm not responsible. God designed it this way...."

The smokescreen is the excuse that they are "above us" in that you can never become that.

2. Prophets claim to receive direct communication from God whereas they don’t

I think these claims are a matter of interpreting ones own experiences. If I thought in terms of "revelation" as they do, of God "declaring" his thoughts to me, rather than in the way I understand the same kinds of experiences which I do have, I could talk like that too. However, I wouldn't, since I use a framework of understanding that is not mythological in nature. I very much have direct experience of God, but I do not imagine myself as a "special mouthpiece" of God.

3. Prophets speak with great authority and reveal teachings and laws they do not want to follow

Not at all. "Do not want to follow"? On the contrary, if what they say speaks Truth, then I already am following that, or at the least aspire to inhabit that.

If however, and here come the big however, the teaching of a prophet were to say, "Evolution as is taught by modern science is wrong. God has revealed to me that humans have always existed as a separate species, and that we as humans never evolved from a non-human species," I would say flatly that this person is in fact wrong, and is, how shall I put it, a little overly-enthusiastic about what they imagine is God speaking to them, versus their own projections.

This is the main issue I have with this elevationism of prophets, it's because folks like you are not allowed to question anything they say, to the point you have to deny your own thinking and own doubts about the very veracity of their claims. It will stimy you as an individual in your spiritual growth, hobble your legs and never let you flex them.

So this "prophets are infallible, appointed by God and we must never question their words or their persons" view can in fact be detrimental, harmful to ones growth because it forces you to deny legitamate concerns about their teachings. It forces a degradation of intellectual, emotional, and spiritual integrity.

Now, I'm not sure how you imagine that is a smokescreen to cover anything. It is the opposite. It is blowing holes through the smoke screens of these myths in the interest of pursuing and embracing Truth with all integrity. This is not about ego wanting to hide from truth. that is what those who evelvate the prophets to god-hood status are doing. They are hiding behind not having to face the Truth and claiming they were only following God - when in fact, they were not.

These believers think they can know as much or more than Prophets of God, so obviously they have no use for Prophets,

How do we go from realizing that anyone of us can be a prophet, to use that term, to we have no use for them? That's a magical connecting line that has no basis in reality. One can certainly admire, honor, respect, learn from, be inspired by prophets, without having to mythologize them an empty yourself of all responsibility! This seems clear to me that this is a projection of what those who believe in them to that degree are themselves doing, projecting on to those like me what they imagine it would be for them.

I'll requote myself from post 28. Here are my exact thoughts as to what is going on, and why just now I said what you said about those like me is a projection of what those like yourself are doing:

"[The prophets] become a vehicle for our inner voices to project out of us, in order for us to hear and listen to ourselves, our subconscious, or unconscious voices. That is what music does (I am a musician as well). This is the power of myth, as Joseph Campbell would have expressed. A good myth has legs, as it can be interpreted so many ways, in some many different times and contexts.

But the danger is, when you do not recognize that it is part of you, that the prophets are an extension of you, and you instead take it as wholly external and authoritative over you, even when your own gut is saying "I don't buy that". At that point, you have surrendered your soul to be crushed underfoot by an authoritarian ruler. "Don't trust yourself, trust me!," when said to something you find distressing or wrong on level, is anything but about spiritual growth. It's about fear and hiding under the guise you'll be safe if you don't question it. Now you are projecting the prophet as your own jail-keeper."
​

And further explained in post 29:

"Like anyone, I respect and listen to experts in their fields, but I also listen to other experts and consider options of what I should say I believe in, at that time. However, when you say the prophet is God speaking, you are saying to others, or more importantly to yourself, "Do not question anything!". It is giving yourself the excuse to not think!

And that is the problem when you make something out of this in order to silence your own thoughts and ideas, or any questioning, doubting, etc. That is what I was starting to point out in the post right before this one. This is the problem, is taking natural looking outside ourselves for directions, to surrendering your participation in the process. That is what is the act of cowardice, at some level within ourselves."​

Do you see the danger? None of this has anything to we not wanting to follow or believe anything they say. It has to do with not surrendering your intellectual, emotional, and spiritual integrity. It has to do with serving Truth, even if it means saying the prophet was wrong. This is the same problem Creationists fall into, and in my estimation, it's a reflection or result of a spiritual cowardice.

You cite the teachings of the Baha'i that encourages questioning everything, but then in the next breath say you cannot challenge the prophet. How does that work? How does someone who values integrity of Truth in all its forms and expressions fall at the feet of that?

but they completely overlook the fact that the rest of humanity needs Prophets and that is the only reason humanity has survived and thrived throughout the ages.

I would completely disagree it's because of prophets humanity has survived. These only exist in certain cultures, in certain ages. Many cultures have no such concepts or those in those roles, yet they have done more than just survive, they have thrived! Facts are facts.

If God had never sent any Prophets, humanity would have ceased to exist a long time ago.

And where were these prophets in the Americas prior to Columbus? How did they manage? How did they then manage after they came?

It is not might intent to say don't listen to the words of great teachers and inspired souls. By all means, do so! But don't hide yourself through the fear of Truth which often asks of you to sacrifice your current beliefs, which may include believing your prophet, like a parent viewed through the eyes of a young child, is seen as infallible.

To see your parents as less than infallible like we did when our thinking was still magical at a young age, does not mean in later life you dishonor and disrespect them. Being realitisic, does not mean you don't respect them. On the contrary, since you can now relate yourself to them, you can admire them better, realizing, they were just like you. And that is all I am and having been saying.