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Ancient and Modern Creation Stories

ecco

Veteran Member
RE: Big Bang
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I don´t think we know this. But this is what modern science come up with, in spite such an assumption directly contradict the scientific law of energy conservation where everything is changing but in an energetic balance. Big Bang is nothing more that a theory based on speculations and assumptions.
If you want to comment on your beliefs regarding ancient cultures - OK. However, you are in no way qualified to make statements like:
Big Bang is nothing more that a theory based on speculations and assumptions.

Evidence for lack of qualifications is your conviction that the Big Bang "directly contradict the scientific law of energy conservation".

Contrary to this modern Big Bang idea, most of the ancient stories of creation clearly speaks of of an eternal and cyclical cosmos in where everything is eternally created, dissolved and re-created.

I'm always amazed at how people write off modern science but hold the ideas of ancient peoples in such awe.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Your country has a "State Church"?
Yes. Many countries do in Europe. All Northern European countries have a state church. I'm not a member, but the majority are. We are diverging from the topic though. If you want to talk about that send a PM or we'll talk in another thread about it. :)
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I have no trouble in principle with the idea that ancient rock carvings may correspond with constellations. Still, the ancient understanding of the sky would have had little in common with ours; and the gods of a great many peoples are said to life 'in the sky', so the carvings are possibly be religious - a divine nexus would be a strong candidate for motive, no?
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Almost every time I refer to the "prime female and male deity of the Milky Way, I think on the issue of the ancestral imagination and understanding of cosmos as such. Yes they named different objects on the Sky as gods and goddesses, but STILL they looked at almost the same Sky as we do today.

It is of course easy for us today just to reject it all as a superstitious non sense, but when digging deep into their mythical stories of creation, our ancestors had a very specific knowledge of it all.

Yes the carvings in question was surely religious, but then again, everything was religious/mythical for our ancestors.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
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Yes they named different objects on the Sky as gods and goddesses, but STILL they looked at almost the same Sky as we do today.
BUT they lacked an understanding of what the sky shows, AND their stories explained things in terms of gods doing things magically.
It is of course easy for us today just to reject it all as a superstitious non sense,
I don't suggest for a moment they were fools. They tried to interpret what they observed in terms of their culture.
but when digging deep into their mythical stories of creation, our ancestors had a very specific knowledge of it all.
You keep saying that, but I wish you'd be specific ─ quote a Bronze Age text that shows they had an understanding of, say, the stars as suns and galaxies at hugely various distances from the earth. Or of heliocentric orbits as such.
Yes the carvings in question was surely religious, but then again, everything was religious/mythical for our ancestors.
The very point I'm making ─ they were concerned with Who? and Why?, and we're concerned with What? and How? (and that aspect of our culture traces back to the Greeks, but not to the Bronze Age).
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
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I don´t think we know this. But this is what modern science come up with, in spite such an assumption directly contradict the scientific law of energy conservation where everything is changing but in an energetic balance. Big Bang is nothing more that a theory based on speculations and assumptions.

Contrary to this modern Big Bang idea, most of the ancient stories of creation clearly speaks of of an eternal and cyclical cosmos in where everything is eternally created, dissolved and re-created.

When ancient myth of creation clearly ALSO speaks of "a beginning", this telling takes off with a description of the pre-conditions of a beginning, and this "beginning" is just a description of HOW the creation works as a principle.

Besides this, I don´t think our ancestors primarily spoke of a creation of the Entire Universe, but about the creation of and in our Milky Way galaxy at the most. For instants had the Egyptians their goddess Hathor to represent the Milky Way as linked here. In this way Hathor is the Mother Goddess of the entire Milky Way, from which center everything in the Milky Way is formed and born. (Hence also the mythical term of The Cosmic Womb)

In the Norse Mythology of "Ragnarok" this myth isn´t about "everything is ending" as modern scholars read it, but that everything changes eternally.
Nothing in science is carved in stone. We do not cling to scientific theories dogmatically -- if further evidence comes to light that overthrows it, we embrace the new.

The point is that the Big Bang is based on EVIDENCE and not imagination. That puts it in an entirely different category than a creation story.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
If you want to comment on your beliefs regarding ancient cultures - OK. However, you are in no way qualified to make statements like:
Big Bang is nothing more that a theory based on speculations and assumptions.
Evidence for lack of qualifications is your conviction that the Big Bang "directly contradict the scientific law of energy conservation".
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No matter what qualification I or other have in this or that, everyone of course is allowed to make their statements.

When a scientific law claims the conservation of energy, this of course also goes for the idea of a Big Bang where everything starts from a singularity, even time and space, which all is pure and simple nonsense. How do you fit the energy conservation law into this???

Try to get the dots together before you reject simple logics :)
 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
BUT they lacked an understanding of what the sky shows, AND their stories explained things in terms of gods doing things magically.
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I earlier linked you to the Egyptian story of creation here:
You can for instants read of the Egyptian story of creation, The Ogdoad, where different deities of both sexes represent different aspect of cosmic elements and stages which came together and created the central light from where everything was created.
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Did you read that? What did you get out of it?

You keep saying that, but I wish you'd be specific ─ quote a Bronze Age text that shows they had an understanding of, say, the stars as suns and galaxies at hugely various distances from the earth. Or of heliocentric orbits as such.
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I can ONLY explain this to you if you take their symbolic language seriously and not as "AND their stories explained things in terms of gods doing things magically". One has to understand that they described a real cosmos and they named the cosmic images after their own mind.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Nothing in science is carved in stone. We do not cling to scientific theories dogmatically -- if further evidence comes to light that overthrows it, we embrace the new.

The point is that the Big Bang is based on EVIDENCE and not imagination. That puts it in an entirely different category than a creation story.
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Well, the ancient Rock Carvings is carved on stones, so some science is :)

How often have you read of or met cosmological scientists revising or changing an otherwise assumed cosmological truth and embraced something new?

In my experience, science in cosmology just adds a new assumption above the the first one which is contradicted. Then don´t obey their own scientific method.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
The point is that the Big Bang is based on EVIDENCE and not imagination. That puts it in an entirely different category than a creation story.
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I don´t think it is evidence to claim that everything started from nothing in a point in a Big Bang. This claim is much worse and less logical than in many cultural stories of creation.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
You keep saying that, but I wish you'd be specific ─ quote a Bronze Age text that shows they had an understanding of, say, the stars as suns and galaxies at hugely various distances from the earth. Or of heliocentric orbits as such.
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To me you seem to focus on the historic part, and I am focused on the mythical part. The mythical part, as in the story of creation, of course goes far back and long before any written history. The ancient heritage was orally for thousands of years and we ONLY have the myths and symbols itself in order to understand the minds of our ancestors.

For instants, in the Norse Mythology, astronomical/cosmological distances was told by the Midgaard, Asgaard and Utgaard celestial realms. And to me it is logical and natural to conclude that the Earth is a sphere since the Sun, the Moon, and the Planets all seemingly goes down under the Earth and show up again over the Earth. This is a circuitive motion around a sphere.

That is: It is the very revolving Earth which in itself is an indication/evidence of a spherical globe. No matter if you think geocentric or heliocentric.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I'm always amazed at how people write off modern science but hold the ideas of ancient peoples in such awe.
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I am equally amazed how cosmological scientists constantly are stunned by their own assumptions and new discoveries.

Once again are the scientific cosmology surprised. They have now detected a galaxy COSMOS-AzTEC-1 which "shouldn´t be there" according to the formation theory in the Big Bang theory.

Quote:
"Monster galaxies, or starburst galaxies, form stars at a startling pace; 1000 times higher than the star formation in our Galaxy. But why are they so active? To tackle this problem, researchers need to know the environment around the stellar nurseries. Drawing detailed maps of molecular clouds is an important step to scout a cosmic monster".

A galaxy that young, according to the Big Bang theory, shouldn´t be that active, so developed and organized, but there it is.

So what will the scientist do now? Skip the entire Big Bang idea since it is contradicted? Nope! It is more likely that they just add a new metaphysical "dark something" and keep their minds on the right wrong track.

THE SCIENTISTS IN MODERN COSMOLOGY ARE TOTALLY LOST IN THEIR OWN THEORIES
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I earlier linked you to the Egyptian story of creation here:
As far as I can tell, you're arguing that they possessed modern perceptions of the cosmos, but every time I ask you for an example, you wave offstage.

And I've asked you for text and date of your Indian example ─ again no reply.

I can ONLY explain this to you if you take their symbolic language seriously
Please give me a nice clear example of their symbolic language and why it's relevant.

Please don't use links. Bring it to the table.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
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No matter what qualification I or other have in this or that, everyone of course is allowed to make their statements.
Yes. But if you have no understanding of a subject, you are probably better off not commenting about it.

When a scientific law claims the conservation of energy, this of course also goes for the idea of a Big Bang where everything starts from a singularity, even time and space, which all is pure and simple nonsense. How do you fit the energy conservation law into this???
It's not my job to educate you. Many complex scientific things sound like "pure and simple nonsense" to the uneducated. It's "pure and simple nonsense" that a differential of a few pounds of air pressure could lift a 400 ton mass of steel into the air, isn't it.


Try to get the dots together before you reject simple logics :)

Oversimplification based on ignorance is not "logics".
 

ecco

Veteran Member
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I am equally amazed how cosmological scientists constantly are stunned by their own assumptions and new discoveries.

It is not necessary to shout.

Once again are the scientific cosmology surprised. They have now detected a galaxy COSMOS-AzTEC-1 which "shouldn´t be there" according to the formation theory in the Big Bang theory.

Who says it shouldn't be there?

Quote:
"Monster galaxies, or starburst galaxies, form stars at a startling pace; 1000 times higher than the star formation in our Galaxy. But why are they so active? To tackle this problem, researchers need to know the environment around the stellar nurseries. Drawing detailed maps of molecular clouds is an important step to scout a cosmic monster".

Where is your quote from? I ask because often people make out of context excerpts. So I like to check.



A galaxy that young, according to the Big Bang theory, shouldn´t be that active, so developed and organized, but there it is.
Is that your opinion?


So what will the scientist do now? Skip the entire Big Bang idea since it is contradicted? Nope! It is more likely that they just add a new metaphysical "dark something" and keep their minds on the right wrong track.
Who says "the Big Bang idea" is "contradicted"? You?

THE SCIENTISTS IN MODERN COSMOLOGY ARE TOTALLY LOST IN THEIR OWN THEORIES
Once again, it is not necessary to SHOUT.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
As far as I can tell, you're arguing that they possessed modern perceptions of the cosmos, but every time I ask you for an example, you wave offstage.
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"As far as you can tell"? How can you tell if you don´t read the linked articles I provides for you?
 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Who says "the Big Bang idea" is "contradicted"? You?
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It´s obvious that the scientists found a 12.4 bill young galaxy which shouldn´ t be that developed or organized so close to the 13.8 bill year age of the Universe according to the Big Bang model.

This is of course a contradiction of the strange Big Bang model. The predictability in Big Bang is proven wrong.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
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"As far as you can tell"? How can you tell if you don´t read the linked articles I provides for you?
Just tell me what your point is.

You seem not to know except that whatever it is, it's offstage somewhere.

Then give me a nice clear example on stage, no links &c, and maybe then offstage material will be relevant.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Just tell me what your point is.
You seem not to know except that whatever it is, it's offstage somewhere.
Then give me a nice clear example on stage, no links &c, and maybe then offstage material will be relevant.
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1. My points are that ancient knowledge is hugely underestimated.
2. That ancient myths of creation contains real astronomical and cosmological knowledge.
3. That this knowledge can be compared to modern science and make sense.
4. That ancient knowledge in some cases is more logical than modern cosmological science.
5. That modern cosmological science is largely based on speculations instead of natural observations.

The comparison between ancient and modern science is not a new one, but I have my own special approach in this matter and this deals specifically with the ancient myths of the Milky Way and its connection with the ancient cultural Stories of Creation, which is long forgotten by many scholars.

Of course, this special approach to the topic leaves me with very few sources of notes since the subject is long forgotten.

I´ve earlier linked you to the Egyptian goddess Hathor and her Milky Way connection. I´ve also linked you the an ancient Egyptian creation story, the Ogdoad, which describes the creation in a genius and symbolic way of explaining the principles in the creation.

Excerpt from the Ogdoad telling:

1) “The eight deities were arranged in four male-female pairs: Nu and Naunet, Amun and Amaunet, Kuk and Kauket, Huh and Hauhet. The males were associated with frogs and females were associated with snakes. Apart from their gender, there was little to distinguish the male gods and female goddesses; indeed, the names of the females are merely derivative female forms of the male name.

Essentially, each pair represents the male and female aspect of one of four concepts, namely the primordial waters (Nu and Naunet), air or invisibility (Amun and Amaunet), darkness (Kuk and Kauket), and eternity or infinity (Huh and Hauhet).

2) Together, the four concepts represent the primal, fundamental state of the beginning, they are what always was. In the myth, however, their interaction ultimately proved to be unbalanced, resulting in the arising of a new entity. When the entity opened, it revealed Ra, the fiery sun, inside. After a long interval of rest, Ra, together with the other deities, created all other things”.
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This explanation deals with the PRINCIPLES of creation, symbolized by the male and female qualities in creation. It deals with "opposite but complementary" forces and qualities. And by naming the Ra god "as the first fiery entity" which is created out of the coming together of the basic elements, the entire story deals with the creation of the Milky Way because the goddess Hathor resembles the Milky Way and Hathor is closely connected to the god Ra.

OBS: Ra is scholarly interpreted to represent the Sun, but in fact this should be the central light in the Milky Way. Of course, since most scholars have no clues of the Milky Way Mythology, their only option is to interpret "light" and Ra as the Sun, and this mistake is flourishing all over in encyclopedia and in books of this subject.
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So, now you see what I am up against when trying to re-create and re-tell an ancient knowledge which is long forgotten and which is eminent and in some cases more logic than modern cosmological thoughts.

I fully understand if people have difficulties in grasping the ancient and mostly forgotten knowledge and sometimes I´m having a huge task in explaining because i sort of "have to create a whole new concept" - even as this concept is as ancient as the first civilized humans and even older.

Ok, I hope you can use this and if you have some questions, feel very welcome.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
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1. My points are that ancient knowledge is hugely underestimated.
Thanks for the list of points.

I'm not unacquainted with the outlines of the old history of Mesopotamia, Persia and westward through Europe and North Africa. I'm much more sketchy on the rest. On that basis I think that ancient knowledge has some fixed points in it, but a lot is unclear or hypothetical. Before it can be estimated, over or under, it must first be identified, and that is, and is likely to remain, a work in progress. But I don't doubt they could be smart at times.
2. That ancient myths of creation contains real astronomical and cosmological knowledge.
We need some clearly stated examples, please. And their respect sources and best available dates. Only then will it be clear how remarkable they are.
3. That this knowledge can be compared to modern science and make sense.
4. That ancient knowledge in some cases is more logical than modern cosmological science.
An answer to these will have to await the examples.
5. That modern cosmological science is largely based on speculations instead of natural observations.
And here again please provide specific examples, so that I can tell whether I agree or not.
The comparison between ancient and modern science is not a new one, but I have my own special approach in this matter and this deals specifically with the ancient myths of the Milky Way and its connection with the ancient cultural Stories of Creation, which is long forgotten by many scholars.
Long forgotten? Really?
Of course, this special approach to the topic leaves me with very few sources of notes since the subject is long forgotten.
That suggests you
may not be in the strongest position to complain that others are speculating, doesn't it?
I've earlier linked you to the Egyptian goddess Hathor and her Milky Way connection. I´ve also linked you the an ancient Egyptian creation story, the Ogdoad, which describes the creation in a genius and symbolic way of explaining the principles in the creation.
BUT you need to point specifically to the things you find remarkable, and the dates of your evidence, or we have nothing to evaluate.
Excerpt from the Ogdoad telling:

1) “The eight deities were arranged in four male-female pairs [...]
But as Wikipedia (under 'Ogdoad') says:

There is no obvious way to allot or attribute four functions to the four pairs of gods, and it seems clear that "the ancient Egyptians themselves had no very clear idea" regarding such functions. Nevertheless, there have been attempts to assign "four ontological concepts" to the four groups. For example, in the context of the New Kingdom, Karenga (2004) uses "fluidity" (for "flood, waters"), "darkness", "unboundedness" and "invisibility" (for "repose, inactivity").
Which seems to mean we can hypothesize with considerable freedom, and no one can show whether we're wrong or right.
I fully understand if people have difficulties in grasping the ancient and mostly forgotten knowledge
There's no way of grasping 'forgotten knowledge' so we'd be left with the remnant implied by 'mostly'. If there are some pins in our map, then we can reason from those. Again, an example would illuminate.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
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No matter what qualification I or other have in this or that, everyone of course is allowed to make their statements.

When a scientific law claims the conservation of energy, this of course also goes for the idea of a Big Bang where everything starts from a singularity, even time and space, which all is pure and simple nonsense. How do you fit the energy conservation law into this???

Try to get the dots together before you reject simple logics :)


Try getting a correct statement of the law of conservation of energy before you attempt to claim that the Big Bang theory violates it.
 
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