Newton - The Last Of The Magicians

[Native]

Subject: Mathematics - "The Great Math Mystery".

Watch this video:

Does math really rule the Universe? Or is it a human invention which cosmologically confirm a possibly skewed human perception of cosmos?

EDIT: I think we have to differ between math used by Engineers on physically KNOWN problems and objects - and astrophysical math used on the cosmological realms of formation.

 

[cladking]

Subject: Mathematics - "The Great Math Mystery".

Watch this video:

Does math really rule the Universe? Or is it a human invention which cosmologically confirm a possibly skewed human perception of cosmos?

EDIT: I think we have to differ between math used by Engineers on physically KNOWN problems and objects - and astrophysical math used on the cosmological realms of formation.

Math is not reality. Rather it is the same logic as reality itself. But our math is dependent on the definitions which generates something that doesn't exist in reality; infinity. Our understanding of the cosmos (such as it is) is dependent on the definitions Newton and others used. Any time that infinity appears in an equation it should be a cue to describe that reality from a different perspective that doesn't involve infinity. In other words a lot of these modern theories are an artefact not of reality and nature but of definitions and the improper application of mathematics. Since there are no two identical things in existence math is very easily misapplied to the real world and in the real world there are far too many unknown equations, variables, and quantities to ever make prediction.

 

[cladking]

I'm surprised the physicist didn't see how pi applied in his needle dropping experiment. Simply stated the complexity of the bouncing of the needle governed by the nature of the paper and needle and the exact angle and orientation assures a virtually random orientation of the final resting place for the needle. ie-it describes a circle such that the needle will intersect a fixed line a fixed percentage of the time.

 

[Polymath257]

I'm surprised the physicist didn't see how pi applied in his needle dropping experiment. Simply stated the complexity of the bouncing of the needle governed by the nature of the paper and needle and the exact angle and orientation assures a virtually random orientation of the final resting place for the needle. ie-it describes a circle such that the needle will intersect a fixed line a fixed percentage of the time.

Yep. This is known as the Buffon Needle Problem. See Buffon's needle problem - Wikipedia for a more complete discussion.

Ultimately, mathematics is a *language* we have invented to help us organize information about the universe. Like all languages, it is invented by us, but because it is designed to help us explain the world around us, we can find it all around us.

Much of the 'mystery' of why pi shows up, for example, can be related to the fact that the laws of physics don't depend on orientation. The collection of possible orientations is a circle or a sphere, so pi naturally arises.

 

[cladking]

Yep. This is known as the Buffon Needle Problem. See Buffon's needle problem - Wikipedia for a more complete discussion.

Ultimately, mathematics is a *language* we have invented to help us organize information about the universe. Like all languages, it is invented by us, but because it is designed to help us explain the world around us, we can find it all around us.

Much of the 'mystery' of why pi shows up, for example, can be related to the fact that the laws of physics don't depend on orientation. The collection of possible orientations is a circle or a sphere, so pi naturally arises.

Thank you. That's way cool.

Few people seem to understand that reality occurs and can be seen from an "infinity" of perspectives.

I believe it was Einstein who said imagination is more powerful than intellect or some such thing. Newton believed in a single reality created by God that could be discerned with experiment and math but modern science is beginning to show this might not be true. But intuition and imagination he had in abundance.

 

[Native]

In other words a lot of these modern theories are an artefact not of reality and nature but of definitions and the improper application of mathematics

Agreed. When for instants Newton defined the attractive force, he forgot to include and define a repuslsive force too. When he observed the apple falling, he forgot to ponder over how the apple could be made up on the tree branch in the first place.

It´s all a question of observing circuital motions of formation, dissolution and re-formation as observed all over in the Nature on and above the Earth and define everything from such an approach.

 

[Native]

Ultimately, mathematics is a *language* we have invented to help us organize information about the universe. Like all languages, it is invented by us, but because it is designed to help us explain the world around us, we can find it all around us.

The human language derives originally from watching the "natural cycles of life" and numbers came into the picture when observing the cycle of day and night and the seasonal changes and by watching the celestial motions of the Moon and some few planets. These motions all describes a cyclical motion and formation.

The standing astrophysical math don´t decribe such natural cycles but a "linear formation" with a beginning in a Big Bang and already here, the math is highly specualtive and contra intuitive compared to a natural cycle of formation as observed in nature itself, hence math determine the standing perception of cosmos instead of the other way around.

Much of the 'mystery' of why pi shows up, for example, can be related to the fact that the laws of physics don't depend on orientation. The collection of possible orientations is a circle or a sphere, so pi naturally arises.

The collection of possible orientations in cosmological physics are mostly spirals.

In my posted video above, natural spiral patterns are mentioned as a "natural rule" of flower formation. In timestamp 40:18 about the Marconi telegraph experiment, Electromagnetic Waves is mentioned and described as electric currents which induces perpendicular magnetic fields which again induces electric currents etc. etc.

This spiralling electromagnetic pattern works in every formation and this spiralling pattern can be observed everywhere in nature on the Earth as well in the cosmos above the Earth.

In this sense Pi describes a natural pattern everywhere.

 

[Native]

I believe it was Einstein who said imagination is more powerful than intellect or some such thing. Newton believed in a single reality created by God that could be discerned with experiment and math but modern science is beginning to show this might not be true. But intuition and imagination he had in abundance.

Agreed in this. "Intuition" is the genuine human (and animal) skills which allows us to communicate with our surroundings without any boundaries. It´s our natural way to gain knowledge and WHEN having the knowledge, MATH can be used in order to describe the intuitive observations - and NOT the other way around, which is the standing and common way of determine everything.

 

[ecco]

Subject: Mathematics - "The Great Math Mystery".

Watch this video:

Does math really rule the Universe? Or is it a human invention which cosmologically confirm a possibly skewed human perception of cosmos?

EDIT: I think we have to differ between math used by Engineers on physically KNOWN problems and objects - and astrophysical math used on the cosmological realms of formation.

It doesn't take much math to make a computer simulator of the solar system.

There are many out there using the simple formulas for gravity. I'm sure someone can do it with just E - right?

 

[cladking]

Agreed in this. "Intuition" is the genuine human (and animal) skills which allows us to communicate with our surroundings without any boundaries. It´s our natural way to gain knowledge and WHEN having the knowledge, MATH can be used in order to describe the intuitive observations - and NOT the other way around, which is the standing and common way of determine everything.

I'm not sure I disagree but math works before the fact and after the fact. But people keep forgetting that math can be misapplied and in a very real ways always is . There are no two identical things so we are always adding apples and oranges. Like all animals humans are adrift in a sea of the unknowable. But unlike animals which model reality we model its parts as our beliefs. Animal modelling is very simple (binary, metaphysical, and logical) and ours is highly complex (analog, acquired, and illogical). In the modern age (since Newton) our modelling is so effective because it is based on knowledge derived from experiment that was determined by the logic of nature.

 

[joelr]

Why on Earth would I like to investigate something wich is inserted all over the cosmological places because scientistst don´t have the skills in order to grasp a natural EM circuit of formation?

Investigation leads to learning. Now I understand why you are stuck believing something that has been shown to be false.

"Gravity Waves"? I otherwise thougt that gravity only works one way between two or more bodies.

I'm sure you thought that. Someday when you study physics you're going to discover all sorts of things.
General relativity predicts that as a very strong gravity moves through space it will cause very small ripples in space-time called gravity waves.
This prediction was verified with the recent discovery of gravity waves.

Just take his strange idea of "curved space-time".

You take the idea and do what ever you like with it.
What scientists do is take the equations behind the idea (called a theory) and apply them to real life. They are able to make predictions which they then test.
This is how we know it's correct.

"Dark matter" is composed as a mind-set by scientitsts who forgot to use the real fundamental forces and qualities on their observations.

That is so close-minded it's hilarious. You're just parroting stuff you read on some EU website.
Which scientist "forgot" All scientists?
You say that as if all scientists could easily use electromagnetism to understand the dark matter problem. I just realized that the EU thing is a conspiracy theory like flat Earth or the fake moon landing. The mark of a good conspiracy theory is when people believe some great truth is either being covered up or ignored by mainstream science.
It isn't about testing your ideas against science you just want to criticize and support your non-theory.
Hilarious. I'm bummed out I've been wasting time with a conspiracy.

"Cosmic rays" has nothing at all to do with "gravity" They are just repulsive electromagnetic discharges and that´s it.

Sigh. You can't even get basic cosmology right?
A cosmic ray is not EM. The highest energy EM wave is a gamma ray.
Cosmic rays are highly charged particles like protons.

"A fifth force??? These scientist have gone that astray in their cosmological confusions that they have to invent more fundamental forces because they don´t use the EM forces which already are at hand.

I don't understand why you listen to conspiracy people telling you lies but you don't think a qualified cosmologist would use EM to solve dark matter if it was possible?
The point of posting papers was to demonstrate all types of solutions are being sought after but they are done in a methodical way (using real science and math). There are many papers on EM as well. But EM does not work as a solution to dark matter.
You don't believe scientists but you do believe conspiracy people who can't produce any math?

Clearly this EU thing is more like a religion to followers. What is it about EU that makes it's followers feel special? Is it that you know a secret truth that others don't know or does this idea give it's followers a more special place in the universe? Is it tied to some weird mythology you wish was true?

There is some reason for all this. It's not just science because you don't know science beyond a laymans level and lay-science people don't go around claiming how correct they are and all science has it wrong. Not unless some wu-wu is tied to the beliefs.

 

[joelr]

Agreed in this. "Intuition" is the genuine human (and animal) skills which allows us to communicate with our surroundings without any boundaries. It´s our natural way to gain knowledge and WHEN having the knowledge, MATH can be used in order to describe the intuitive observations - and NOT the other way around, which is the standing and common way of determine everything.

Not in physics. The math makes predictions often times in physics.
The neutrino was discovered because of some missing mass in equations. Same with antimatter.
The equations predict things in physics all the time. Most of the time.
The speed of light was found in Maxwells equations.

Also EM also has 2 theories just like gravity.
There is classical Newtonian gravity and a more detailed Einstien's GR.
Well EM has Maxwell's classical theory which is a classical limit to the more fundamental quantum electrodynamics.

You questioned why gravity would have 2 theories, well so does EM.

 

[Native]

@cladking,

I'm not sure I disagree but math works before the fact and after the fact.

What I meant in this context was just that "gravity math" is used on cosmological scales which isn´t understood. Here direct observations should determine the used math and if/when an observation contradict the used math, it is the theory and the math which have to be revised.

Like all animals humans are adrift in a sea of the unknowable. But unlike animals which model reality we model its parts as our beliefs

When birds migrate forth and back over thousands of kilometers, they don´t seem to be especially adrift And the numerous human Stories of Creation is really our guidance in life, so we shouldn´t be adrift - but of course we are when we forget the ancient knowledge

 

[Native]

I don't understand why you listen to conspiracy people telling you lies but you don't think a qualified cosmologist would use EM to solve dark matter if it was possible?

You just as well could have used the term "heresy" instead of "conspiracy" as it obviously is a doctrine problem for you.

In modern science, alternative thoughts and theories just resembles "another ways of thinking" compared to the standing theories.

"Qualified standard cosmologists" can´t solve "dark matter" or anything else unless they abandon the standing thinking of the fundamental forces.

 

[Native]

Native said: ↑
Agreed in this. "Intuition" is the genuine human (and animal) skills which allows us to communicate with our surroundings without any boundaries. It´s our natural way to gain knowledge and WHEN having the knowledge, MATH can be used in order to describe the intuitive observations - and NOT the other way around, which is the standing and common way of determine everything.

Not in physics. The math makes predictions often times in physics.

And when it was contradicted in the galactic rotation curve, they just invented "dark matter" in order to save their mathematical ideas

The neutrino was discovered because of some missing mass in equations. Same with antimatter.

"Antimatter" is just an opposite EM polarity in atoms. There is no such thing as "a matter of antimatter". This is pure speculative nonsense produced by the "gravitationans".

Also EM also has 2 theories just like gravity.
There is classical Newtonian gravity and a more detailed Einstien's GR.

EM has in my opinion just 1 theory. It´s just a question of EM working with different charges on all atoms, elements and stages.

This leaves in my perception "gravity" generally to be a schizophrenic idea when having 2 accepted theories working on the same areas.

 

[joelr]

You just as well could have used the term "heresy" instead of "conspiracy" as it obviously is a doctrine problem for you.

In modern science, alternative thoughts and theories just resembles "another ways of thinking" compared to the standing theories.

"Qualified standard cosmologists" can´t solve "dark matter" or anything else unless they abandon the standing thinking of the fundamental forces.

Again, super close-minded post followed by a sig that says to not be close minded?
Do you realize that just because your sig suggests open mindedness your posts are incredibly closed off to anything other than what you insist is true?
All you're doing is parroting what an EU website said with no understanding of why it could be true. Yet for some reason (it probably supports some weird religious beliefs) you think all cosmologists are wrong and EU is correct.

It's like a non-musician saying songwriters could write much better songs if they came up with a new system of music. But you don't even understand the current musical system to even explain what's wrong with it?

 

[joelr]

Native said: ↑
Agreed in this. "Intuition" is the genuine human (and animal) skills which allows us to communicate with our surroundings without any boundaries. It´s our natural way to gain knowledge and WHEN having the knowledge, MATH can be used in order to describe the intuitive observations - and NOT the other way around, which is the standing and common way of determine everything.

And when it was contradicted in the galactic rotation curve, they just invented "dark matter" in order to save their mathematical ideas

Dark matter is one avenue being explored. Even though your made up view of science tells you science is rigid many different areas are being explored. Even tweaks in gravity:
https://phys.org/news/2019-01-dark-alternative-theory.html

If the EU model had any chance to be a valid theory someone would have put that forth as a theory as well. It just isn't a real solution.

"Antimatter" is just an opposite EM polarity in atoms. There is no such thing as "a matter of antimatter". This is pure speculative nonsense produced by the "gravitationans".

Well yes antimatter is matter with a reverse charge. Unfortunately for you, once again, you are wrong about a science fact. Antimatter can and is created in a lab.
The term "antimatter" is just a word. You seem to be reading too deeply into the term "anti". It's just a placeholder word for matter with a reverse charge.
There is a negative electron in regular atoms and in particle chambers we sometimes see a positive electron, a positron. Not a big deal. But like many things in physics, the math shows us what to look for.

EM has in my opinion just 1 theory. It´s just a question of EM working with different charges on all atoms, elements and stages.
This leaves in my perception "gravity" generally to be a schizophrenic idea when having 2 accepted theories working on the same areas.

I understand that this is your perception. It's simply wrong.
EM has 2 theories a classical and a quantum. Gravity is no different.
I've already told you Newtonian gravity and GR produce the same results at low gravity.
Newton's gravity isn't a "theory" of what gravity is, why don't you understand this? It's just a mathematical law that gravity follows.
GR is the theory of what gravity actually is.


Again, what is the reason you follow EU so "religiously"? This has to do with some religious or mythological beliefs does it not? It isn't for scientific reasons. EU allows some myth to be more true than the current scientific model.

This is like the creationists with evolution isn't it?

 

[Native]

Again, super close-minded post followed by a sig that says to not be close minded?

So now it is "super close minded" to look outside the squared box of the Standard Cosmology doctrines and it´s problems?

All you're doing is parroting what an EU website said with no understanding of why it could be true.

For your information, I have my own approach to the EM and EU but of course I´m using all informations which is available.

Yet for some reason (it probably supports some weird religious beliefs) you think all cosmologists are wrong and EU is correct.

I just think you have fallen into the common pithole of scientists who are unable to think of old problems in a new way. Or maybe the real problem is that you are unable to think for your self.

What are your own thoughts of an Electric Universe?

 

[Native]

Dark matter is one avenue being explored. Even though your made up view of science tells you science is rigid many different areas are being explored. Even tweaks in gravity:
https://phys.org/news/2019-01-dark-alternative-theory.html

Thanks for this link which contents I´ve already read. It´s a (fine) step on the way to discard the human invention of "dark matter" but it doesn´t help the least "tweaking the laws of gravity" when it is the cosmological minds who needs a bit of tweaking, including other fundamantal forces but "gravity", which really isn´t a force at all.

If the EU model had any chance to be a valid theory someone would have put that forth as a theory as well. It just isn't a real solution.

What? There are several EU models at hand, included the one which I promote here. You just have to ponder over the contents and let go of the Standard Model doctrines for a while and see if the EU contents is more logic or not.

The term "antimatter" is just a word. You seem to be reading too deeply into the term "anti". It's just a placeholder word for matter with a reverse charge.

Som WHY can´t cosmological scientists explain this very simple issue with plain words? My guess is that they are stuck in the "gravitational particle physics doctrines" and frequently forget the EM qualities of atoms. To me, it is downright stupid to call electromagnetic charges for "matter and particles".

 

[Native]

Native said: ↑
EM has in my opinion just 1 theory. It´s just a question of EM working with different charges on all atoms, elements and stages.
This leaves in my perception "gravity" generally to be a schizophrenic idea when having 2 accepted theories working on the same areas.

I understand that this is your perception. It's simply wrong.
EM has 2 theories a classical and a quantum. Gravity is no different.
I've already told you Newtonian gravity and GR produce the same results at low gravity.
Newton's gravity isn't a "theory" of what gravity is, why don't you understand this? It's just a mathematical law that gravity follows.
GR is the theory of what gravity actually is.

I really don´t care what the standing perception of the fundamental forces says. EM has the same basic qualities all over the places and it is nonsense to divide EM out in 3 different fundamental forces just because different scientists have had their different approaches to everything.

Again, what is the reason you follow EU so "religiously"? This has to do with some religious or mythological beliefs does it not? It isn't for scientific reasons. EU allows some myth to be more true than the current scientific model.

Because it is the most logical one Of course it ALSO has to do with religious and mythological beliefs as in the cultural Stories of Creation as for instants in the biblical "Let there be light" = Electromagnetic Force.

You see? Even "God Himself" were/are an active follower of the Electric Universe