Which is “the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books”?

[TransmutingSoul]

"The Bab had no doubts"Unquote.

As one has admitted that Bab had not doubt about Quran being the Word of G-d,and he also had no doubt whatsoever that Muhammad was a prophet/messenger of God.
Similarly Bahaullah had not doubt about Quran being the Word of G-d,and he also had no doubt whatsoever that Muhammad was a prophet/messenger of God. Right, please?
If yes, then there was no challenge to Bab from Muhammad. The verses of Quran quoted by one in post #143 above were/are addressed to the doubters and non-believers of Muhammad and Quran not otherwise.
Right, please?

Regards

It appears there is a misunderstanding.

I suggested the Bab Fulfilled the Challenge by demonstrating He could give verses from God like unto the Quran. Thus the challenge given by Muhammad in the Quran, now reverts to the Muslims and all of Humanity to the Bab and Baha'u'llah's Writings.

Regards Tony

 

[gnostic]

Did one read all the three works that one suggested, please?

1. Egyptian Pyramid Texts
   
2. Sumerian-Akkadian myth of Gilgamesh
   
3. and the Hindu Rig Veda.

and who were exactly their authors/writers?

I have read all but the Rig Veda. I never got around to reading Rig Veda because I was focused on other literature and other myths at the time.

The story of Gilgamesh was based on older oral tradition of the Sumerian, and then transmitted into Sumerian writings on clay tablets, into 5 different poems. These tablets were dated to the late 3rd millennium BCE, to the 3rd dynasty of Ur (c 2112 - c 2004 BCE). These were not written in a single epic, but as distinct stories:

• Bilgames and Agga. Agga was a king of Kish.
• Bilgames and Huwawa, which appeared in the episode within the Epic of Gilgamesh. Huwawa became Humbala in Babylonian and Assyrian versions.
• Bilgames and the Bull of Heaven, is another adventure that reappeared in the Epic.
• Bilgames, Enkidu and the Netherworld, in which Enkidu was trapped in the Netherworld.
• The Death of Bilgames, in which the mention of the hero having met Ziusudra, the hero of the Flood. There are no detail about the Flood story; what it does say is that Bilgames met Ziusudra and brought back the custom of hand washing that was lost during the Flood.

Bilgames is the Sumerian name for Gilgamesh.

There were other stories, especially hymns to the gods and hymns to kings, some written in this dynasty in this city of Ur, but others were written in other cities (eg Eridu, Nippur) in Sumer, some that were contemporary to the 3rd dynasty and others were older. And we don’t know of the names of any authors.

We also don’t know who wrote these tablets, but they (especially the myth of Gilgamesh) were so popular, they continued to exist in the Akkadian dialect, in Old Babylonian (period from19th to 16th centuries BCE), and was written in epic form, hence the Epic of Gilgamesh, from this point onward.

The popularity of the Epic, is partly due to being copied by apprentices in scribe schools, and the Epic of Gilgamesh, were one of many stories copied by students, and the Epic continued in the Middle Babylonian period (c 1600 - c 1155 BCE) and the Neo-Babylonian and Neo-Assyrian period.

It is during the early Middle Babylonian period, that we find fragments of the Epic of Gilgamesh in royal archives of Hattusa (a Hittite capital), in Ugarit, in Megiddo and in Amarna (Egypt).

It is also in this period (ie Middle Babylonian) we know of at least one scribe, Sîn-lēqi-unninni, who lived some where between 1300 and 1100 BCE. It is rare to find names of scribes or authors in Sumerian and Akkadian writings, especially in the 2nd millennium BCE.

The most famous tablets of this epic was that found in the Library at Nineveh, which was built during the reign of Ashurbanipal (reign 668 - c 627 BCE, hence in the late Neo-Assyrian period), which 12 tablets were found.

As to the Pyramid Texts (late Old Kingdom period), these are found in chamber walls of the pyramids of Unas (last king of the 5th dynasty) and the 6th dynasty Teti, Pepi I, and Pepi II (pyramids of his 3 queens). These texts were only found in the necropolis of Saqqara; no such texts were found in earlier dynasties (3rd and 4th dynasties), like the Step Pyramid Of Djoser in Saqqara (3rd dynasty) or the great pyramid of Khufu in Giza (4th dynasty).

These Pyramid Texts were most likely written by the priesthood of Ra, and were only reserved for the kings and queens (or consorts) of Egypt. So no names of authors.

During the Middle Kingdom period, the Pyramid Texts were replaced by the Coffin Texts. The afterlife focused away from the sun god Ra, and focused more on Osiris, written on coffins of kings, priests, governors and rich bureaucrats.

During the New Kingdom period, instead of finding funerary texts on tomb walls or on the coffins, they were preserved in manuscripts made of papyri, hence the Book of the Dead. Anyone who could pay copyists to write the Book of the Dead, would have had them made before they were alive.

These funerary texts were meant to assist the deceased in their afterlife, and were originally reserved for the kings of Egypt (eg the Pyramid Texts of the 5th and 6th dynasties of the Old Kingdom period) or that of later Bronze Age periods in Egypt (eg Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom periods). And they preserved some myths of the Egyptian religion and culture.

The reason why I brought up the Pyramid Texts is that they are the oldest religious texts.

 

[cladking]

The reason why I brought up the Pyramid Texts is that they are the oldest religious texts.

Funny thing is that if I'm right they aren't "religious" in any way, shape, or form. They are merely the rituals associated with the ceremonies where the kings ascended to heaven. They "believed" that the only way to survive death was to be remembered and the pyramid was a mnemonic to remember the king by day and a star assigned to him was the mnemonic for night time. What makes the PT so "mighty" is they are written in a metaphysical language that derives directly from the wiring of the brain. This metaphysical language itself was therefore very powerful and was used to invent agriculture, invent cities, and build the great pyramids.

It retains its power today but its meaning eludes linguists because they can't even see it breaks Zipf's Law and contains no words for "belief", "thought", or the taxonomies we use as mnemonics. Ancient people didn't think like us so we don't understand them. Ironically they meant exactly what they said literally but that eludes us because we see our beliefs instead.

 

[paarsurrey]

It appears there is a misunderstanding.

I suggested the Bab Fulfilled the Challenge by demonstrating He could give verses from God like unto the Quran. Thus the challenge given by Muhammad in the Quran, now reverts to the Muslims and all of Humanity to the Bab and Baha'u'llah's Writings.

Regards Tony

The challenge was for those who doubted and denied about G-d having revealed Quran as the Word of G-d and Muhammad as prophet/messenger of G-d. Bab did not do it so in this sense the verses were not addressed to Bab.
Same is the case of Bahaullah he did believe in Quran as Word of G-d and Muhammad as prophet/messenger of G-d.
The verses are very clear on it, so please get corrected. Right, please?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The challenge was for those who doubted and denied about G-d having revealed Quran as the Word of G-d and Muhammad as prophet/messenger of G-d. Bab did not do it so in this sense the verses were not addressed to Bab.
Same is the case of Bahaullah he did believe in Quran as Word of G-d and Muhammad as prophet/messenger of G-d.
The verses are very clear on it, so please get corrected. Right, please?

Regards

You have chosen to see it in a different way. I see it in a different frame of reference.

Peace be with you, Regards Tony

 

[gnostic]

Funny thing is that if I'm right they aren't "religious" in any way, shape, or form. They are merely the rituals associated with the ceremonies where the kings ascended to heaven.

But rituals and ceremonies are part of every ancient religions, which include calling upon the gods, to assist with the afterlife.

The Old Kingdom Pyramid Texts predated the Middle Kingdom Coffin Texts and the New Kingdom (as well as the 3rd Intermediate period and Late Period) Book(s) of the Dead.

Some of the myths in the PT, were adapted and expanded or elaborated into later myths.

For instance, in PT 527 & 660, Atum created Shu and Tefnut, respectively through masturbation and through spitting.

Atum is he who once came into being, who masturbated in On. He took his phallus in his grasp that he might create orgasm by the mean of it, and so born the twins Shu and Tefnut.

”O Shu, I am the son of Atum.” “You are the eldest son of Atum, his first born; Atum has spat you out from his mouth in your name of Shu...”

In the Spell 76 of the Coffin Texts, it repeated the same version in PT’s Utterance 660, birth by spitting.

I indeed am Shu whom Atum created, whereby Re came into being; I was not born from the womb, I was not built up in the womb, I was not knit together in the egg, I was not conceived, but Atum spat me out in the spittle of his mouth together with my sister Tefnut. She went after me, and I was covered with the breath of the throat.

Above, Atum is Re or Ra. In some myths, Ra and Atum are one and the same god, but in some other myths, they are two distinct characters.

But that’s not important, because in the next verse (Spell 77), it combined the masturbation with the spitting, where both Shu and Tefnut were created.

I am this soul of Shu which is in the flame of the fiery blast which Atum kindle with his own hand. He created orgasm and fluid from his mouth. He spat me out together with Tefnut, who came forth after me as the Great Ennead, the daughter of Atum, who shines on the gods.

In a papyrus (papyrus number 10, 188, titled “The Book of Knowing The Evolution of Ra, And The Overthrowing Of Apep”) dated to the Late Period, possibly 26th dynasty, we find a fuller creation myth, in which included the episode of how Re created Shu and Tefnut, by first masturbating and ejactulating in his own mouth, before spitting the twin gods out.

Over times, myths can change and expand in the retelling.

But whatever myths and rituals, the Pyramid Texts are examples of Egyptian religion whether you accept or not.

Sources:

Faulkner, R. O.,

Funny thing is that if I'm right they aren't "religious" in any way, shape, or form. They are merely the rituals associated with the ceremonies where the kings ascended to heaven.

But rituals and ceremonies are part of every ancient religions, which include calling upon the gods, to assist with the afterlife.

The Old Kingdom Pyramid Texts predated the Middle Kingdom Coffin Texts and the New Kingdom (as well as the 3rd Intermediate period and Late Period) Book(s) of the Dead.

Some of the myths in the PT, were adapted and expanded or elaborated into later myths.

For instance, in PT 527 & 660, Atum created Shu and Tefnut, respectively through masturbation and through spitting.

Atum is he who once came into being, who masturbated in On. He took his phallus in his grasp that he might create orgasm by the mean of it, and so born the twins Shu and Tefnut.

”O Shu, I am the son of Atum.” “You are the eldest son of Atum, his first born; Atum has spat you out from his mouth in your name of Shu...”

In the Spell 76 of the Coffin Texts, it repeated the same version in PT’s Utterance 660, birth by spitting.

I indeed am Shu whom Atum created, whereby Re came into being; I was not born from the womb, I was not built up in the womb, I was not knit together in the egg, I was not conceived, but Atum spat me out in the spittle of his mouth together with my sister Tefnut. She went after me, and I was covered with the breath of the throat.

Above, Atum is Re or Ra. In some myths, Ra and Atum are one and the same god, but in some other myths, they are two distinct characters.

But that’s not important, because in the next verse (Spell 77), it combined the masturbation with the spitting, where both Shu and Tefnut were created.

I am this soul of Shu which is in the flame of the fiery blast which Atum kindle with his own hand. He created orgasm and fluid from his mouth. He spat me out together with Tefnut, who came forth after me as the Great Ennead, the daughter of Atum, who shines on the gods.

In a papyrus (papyrus number 10, 188, titled “The Book of Knowing The Evolution of Ra, And The Overthrowing Of Apep”) dated to the Late Period, possibly 26th dynasty, we find a fuller creation myth, in which included the episode of how Re created Shu and Tefnut, by first masturbating and ejactulating in his own mouth, before spitting the twin gods out.

Over times, myths can change and expand in the retelling.

But whatever myths and rituals, the Pyramid Texts are examples of Egyptian religion, whether you accept it or not.

Sources:

Faulkner, R. O.,The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts, Oxford University Press, 1969

Faulkner, R. O.,The Ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts (v. 1-3), Aris & Phillips, 2004

Budge, E. A. Wallis, Legends Of The Gods: The Egyptian Texts, Hieroglyphic Texts and Translations, London, 1912, Dover (rev. 1994); The Legend Of Creation​

 

[cladking]

But rituals and ceremonies are part of every ancient religions, which include calling upon the gods, to assist with the afterlife.

Modern beliefs are unsupported and illogical. We have come to understand the great pyramid building culture through a book of incantation that was translated and interpreted in terms of later writings. We have used bad methodology on a biblical scale and refused to use modern knowledge and science to test it. We have put linguists in charge of studying the pyramids and the artefacts of the past and wonder why we have no answers.

The physical evidence nor logic support our beliefs and this gives rise to one mystery after another. Meanwhile the linguists have done such a remarkably poor job they've failed to notice that the language breaks Zipf's Law. They've failed to notice that there are no words for "thought", "belief", or taxonomic words. They've failed to notice the Pyramid Texts makes perfect sense when taken literally.

There are perfectly understandable reasons that these linguists made such a mess of things. Humans naturally accept what is obvious and it certainly seemed obvious that pyramids were tombs that must have been dragged up ramps. It seemed obvious that the "book of the dead" derived from the PT so why not interpret the earlier book in its terms. It was obvious that the ancients lacked science and were grossly superstitious. It's obvious that a sarcophagus in a pyramid proves it was a tomb so there's no need to run forensic tests or consider that this is a semantical argument. Across the board they put the cart before the horse and didn't test the obvious. The public was more interested in the latest pronouncements about how superstition made ancient people strong and wise. People want to believe that belief works because this is how the modern mind works; we create models of our beliefs.

We are truly Homo Omnisciencis but the ancients were Homo Sapiens. We listen to our priests of science and our priests of religion, they lacked even the words of superstition and we can't even see they lacked them.

 

[paarsurrey]

I have read all but the Rig Veda. I never got around to reading Rig Veda because I was focused on other literature and other myths at the time.

The story of Gilgamesh was based on older oral tradition of the Sumerian, and then transmitted into Sumerian writings on clay tablets, into 5 different poems. These tablets were dated to the late 3rd millennium BCE, to the 3rd dynasty of Ur (c 2112 - c 2004 BCE). These were not written in a single epic, but as distinct stories:

• Bilgames and Agga. Agga was a king of Kish.
• Bilgames and Huwawa, which appeared in the episode within the Epic of Gilgamesh. Huwawa became Humbala in Babylonian and Assyrian versions.
• Bilgames and the Bull of Heaven, is another adventure that reappeared in the Epic.
• Bilgames, Enkidu and the Netherworld, in which Enkidu was trapped in the Netherworld.
• The Death of Bilgames, in which the mention of the hero having met Ziusudra, the hero of the Flood. There are no detail about the Flood story; what it does say is that Bilgames met Ziusudra and brought back the custom of hand washing that was lost during the Flood.

Bilgames is the Sumerian name for Gilgamesh.

There were other stories, especially hymns to the gods and hymns to kings, some written in this dynasty in this city of Ur, but others were written in other cities (eg Eridu, Nippur) in Sumer, some that were contemporary to the 3rd dynasty and others were older. And we don’t know of the names of any authors.

We also don’t know who wrote these tablets, but they (especially the myth of Gilgamesh) were so popular, they continued to exist in the Akkadian dialect, in Old Babylonian (period from19th to 16th centuries BCE), and was written in epic form, hence the Epic of Gilgamesh, from this point onward.

The popularity of the Epic, is partly due to being copied by apprentices in scribe schools, and the Epic of Gilgamesh, were one of many stories copied by students, and the Epic continued in the Middle Babylonian period (c 1600 - c 1155 BCE) and the Neo-Babylonian and Neo-Assyrian period.

It is during the early Middle Babylonian period, that we find fragments of the Epic of Gilgamesh in royal archives of Hattusa (a Hittite capital), in Ugarit, in Megiddo and in Amarna (Egypt).

It is also in this period (ie Middle Babylonian) we know of at least one scribe, Sîn-lēqi-unninni, who lived some where between 1300 and 1100 BCE. It is rare to find names of scribes or authors in Sumerian and Akkadian writings, especially in the 2nd millennium BCE.

The most famous tablets of this epic was that found in the Library at Nineveh, which was built during the reign of Ashurbanipal (reign 668 - c 627 BCE, hence in the late Neo-Assyrian period), which 12 tablets were found.

As to the Pyramid Texts (late Old Kingdom period), these are found in chamber walls of the pyramids of Unas (last king of the 5th dynasty) and the 6th dynasty Teti, Pepi I, and Pepi II (pyramids of his 3 queens). These texts were only found in the necropolis of Saqqara; no such texts were found in earlier dynasties (3rd and 4th dynasties), like the Step Pyramid Of Djoser in Saqqara (3rd dynasty) or the great pyramid of Khufu in Giza (4th dynasty).

These Pyramid Texts were most likely written by the priesthood of Ra, and were only reserved for the kings and queens (or consorts) of Egypt. So no names of authors.

During the Middle Kingdom period, the Pyramid Texts were replaced by the Coffin Texts. The afterlife focused away from the sun god Ra, and focused more on Osiris, written on coffins of kings, priests, governors and rich bureaucrats.

During the New Kingdom period, instead of finding funerary texts on tomb walls or on the coffins, they were preserved in manuscripts made of papyri, hence the Book of the Dead. Anyone who could pay copyists to write the Book of the Dead, would have had them made before they were alive.

These funerary texts were meant to assist the deceased in their afterlife, and were originally reserved for the kings of Egypt (eg the Pyramid Texts of the 5th and 6th dynasties of the Old Kingdom period) or that of later Bronze Age periods in Egypt (eg Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom periods). And they preserved some myths of the Egyptian religion and culture.

The reason why I brought up the Pyramid Texts is that they are the oldest religious texts.

It appears to me that Bahaullah did exaggerate and he erred in claiming that the book "Qayyúmu’l-Asmá" was the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books.
Of course humans do make mistakes.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It appears to me that Bahaullah did exaggerate and he erred in claiming that the book "Qayyúmu’l-Asmá" was the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books.
Of course humans do make mistakes.

Regards

I could be it is you that has made a big mistake. I have found that Baha'u'llah 100% Trustworthy and Truthful.

Regards Tony

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Which is “the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books”?

For me, that would have to be Stick Control. Aka, the "drummer's bible"

 

[paarsurrey]

Which is “the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books”?

Is it “Qayyúmu’l-Asmá,” of Bab or
"Book of Certitude"/Kitab-i-Iqan of Bahaullah, please?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which is “the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books”?

Is it “Qayyúmu’l-Asmá,” of Bab or
"Book of Certitude"/Kitab-i-Iqan of Bahaullah, please?

Regards

All Points, Letters, Words, Sentences, Paragraphs, Tablets, Books from God/Allah are the Mightiest. They all give us the one aim and that is to know and Love our One God.

RegardsTony

 

[Valjean]

Which is “the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books”?

Is it “Qayyúmu’l-Asmá,” of Bab or
"Book of Certitude"/Kitab-i-Iqan of Bahaullah, please?

Regards

Clarify your determinants, please.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
Which is “the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books”?

Is it “Qayyúmu’l-Asmá,” of Bab or
"Book of Certitude"/Kitab-i-Iqan of Bahaullah, please?

Clarify your determinants, please.

1. Bahaullah wrote,“Gracious God! In His Book, which He (Bab) hath entitled “Qayyúmu’l-Asmá,”—the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books.
2. The Kitáb-i-Íqán – The Book of Certitude-A treatise revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in Baghdad in 1861/62, published by bahai.org.

Regards

 

[Valjean]

Valjean said:
"Clarify your determinants, please."

1. Bahaullah wrote,“Gracious God! In His Book, which He (Bab) hath entitled “Qayyúmu’l-Asmá,”—the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books.
2. The Kitáb-i-Íqán – The Book of Certitude-A treatise revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in Baghdad in 1861/62, published by bahai.org.

I was asking for a clarification of "greatest and mightiest."

 

[paarsurrey]

Valjean said:
"Clarify your determinants, please."
I was asking for a clarification of "greatest and mightiest."

Bahaullah has claimed that the first is "Qayyúmu’l-Asmá,” "is the the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books." This claim is in "Kitab-e-Iqan" .
I am not a follower of Bahaullah. My understanding is that Bahaullah exaggerated about the book to the extant that it makes him a fallible human being and nothing more. While Bahaullah's followers eulogize and consider two books "Kitab-e-Iqan" and another one as their core books.
That will make a contradiction also as I understand.
Should I quote the full passage of Bahaullah about "Qayyúmu’l-Asmá*,”?

Regards

_____________

*Bahaullah writes:
“Gracious God! In His Book, which He hath entitled “Qayyúmu’l-Asmá,”—the first, the greatest and mightiest of all books—He prophesied His own martyrdom. In it is this passage: “O thou Remnant of God! I have sacrificed myself wholly for Thee; I have accepted curses for Thy sake; and have yearned for naught but martyrdom in the path of Thy love. Sufficient Witness unto me is God, the Exalted, the Protector, the Ancient of Days!”

Page 231 Kitab-i-Iqan or the “Book of Certitude” written by Bahaullah.