What would a Muslim do?

[sun rise]

That is exactly what I did.
I just asked questions on what to me is odd and makes no sense.
I just asked what Muslims do when a woman is known to have committed adultery?

If I was a Muslim this would have been the answer to my question:
I would not have accused my wife of adultery because Allah's rules expect me to produce at least 4 witnesses of upright character, etc, etc.
The problem is that I saw my wife committing adultery so how can I say justice was done?
I know the truth but Allah's rules don't allow me to tell it.
Does Allah expect me to follow the rules even when I know they don't do justice?
How do Muslims deal with this?

I answered this already. Read my answer.

 

[Raymann]

I answered this already. Read my answer.

"And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own― their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) by Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie; And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth. " (an-Nur, 24/6-9).

This is interesting, it says "their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times".
What does that mean?
I would guess that means the accuser can offer his own evidence as long as he brings 4 witnesses.
Is that correct?

If that is correct then this doesn't change what I said initially on the OP.
A person cannot accuse his wife unless he brings at least 4 witnesses.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Given that the Islamic punishment for adultery is either stoning or lashing (depending on the most mainstream interpretations of the Qur'an and hadith), I'm actually glad the Islamic requirements for witnesses would make the punishment harder to mete out. Since I believe the two punishments I mentioned are unjust and inhumane, I don't see how more lenient requirements to carry them out would aid justice at all.



It depends on the husband in question. We're talking about billions of men, so there's no way to give a blanket answer and remain accurate.



It depends on the Muslim in question, since we're also talking about nearly a billion men in this case.

The OP seems hastily or poorly thought out, not to mention simplistic and one-dimensional. Certainly not the best way to approach a thorny subject like marital infidelity.

So I can assume you speak on behalf of all followers of Hello Kitty on this?
I'm asking this on behalf on the entire internet.

 

[oldbadger]

This is the scenario:
You get home and find your wife having sex with another man.
You are the only witness.

This would be a case of adultery according to Islam. A man and a woman having sex outside of marriage.
The problem is that following strict Islamic rules adultery is very difficult to prove.
You need four men witnesses of upright character (sinless)
Those witnesses have to actually see the penetration before making any accusation.
Those who make accusations without the required conditions are actually penalized for it.

How does this accomplish justice?
What would a husband do in this situation?
What would any Muslim do in this situation?

No Raymann. Your definition of adultery is wrong. Adultery is not 'having sex outside of marriage' it is about a spouse having sex with another person other than their spouse.

The Husband could do any of several things, but what would you do? What would be your response if you found your wife copulating with somebody else?

What is your idea of justice for adultery?

 

[Raymann]

No Raymann. Your definition of adultery is wrong. Adultery is not 'having sex outside of marriage' it is about a spouse having sex with another person other than their spouse.

The Husband could do any of several things, but what would you do? What would be your response if you found your wife copulating with somebody else?

What is your idea of justice for adultery?

My definition of adultery is sex with at least one person being married.
But in the Islamic world that is not the right definition.
Zina is the word used and it involves adultery, fornication and any kind of sexual activity outside of marriage.
That's why I defined it the Islamic way, in short sex outside of marriage.
I already said in a previous post (#19) how I would answer my own question.
The problem is that if I answer it using Islamic laws in mind I don't see justice accomplished.
An adulterer never gets punished unless he or she confesses.
The rules on adultery were created by Allah.
How can they be that bad?

 

[Raymann]

You said:

"but he could never do what he should do and that is accuse her of adultery."

Sure he can because there are three witnesses there. The wife in question, the husband, and the one committing the act of adultery with the married woman. However considering the legality of the issue rulings on Zina varies depending on the interpretation and where geographically. The Qur'an clearly mandates punishment for false accusation of adultery. However, given the scenario it would depend on the person.

That's the point, at least 4 witnesses are required.
Not only that, they have to be men.
Not only that, they need to be of upright character (sinless)
Not only that, they have to have seen the actual penetration.

Basically Allah makes it impossible to prosecute an adulterer but Allah, on the other hand, imposes a very harsh punishment (death by stoning or 100 lashes)
Go figure.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So I can assume you speak on behalf of all followers of Hello Kitty on this?
I'm asking this on behalf on the entire internet.

Don't include me in that statement. So not the entire Internet

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Don't include me in that statement. So not the entire Internet

Heh...the ridiculous overstatement was kinda the point @Debater Slayer was making, so I ran with it. I wouldn't take it too seriously.

 

[Wasp]

Maybe I can help the conversation on.

(attempting to describe the very likely argument of the OP from their point of view)

• It makes no sense a husband can't get the officials to punish his wife by telling them to.
• It is "absolutely certain" that Aisha committed adultery because...
• The prophet Muhammad saws waited for one month (not suffient to verify absence of pregnancy according to the Quran) to know Aisha was not pregnant with the man she committed adultery with
• obviously the Prophet Muhammad saws wasn't having sex with his wife Aisha because ....and they couldn't have had children because....
  
• He invented the stoning verse to protect his ego
• The entire Qur'an was written by Prophet Muhammad saws himself
  
• The reason he knew about the beginning and the end of world is that he was a traveller... Here and there..

 

[LuisDantas]

It is sad to see that one person can spread so much hate toward Muslims in general, Infidelity happens in every society of the world, Not only in Muslim homes. So, to time and time again single out the Muslim community starting to become bullying of one single group of people, with a certain belief. And this forum should be a place everyone could feel safe and happy. But sometimes one wonders if it is worth even opening threads like this one because one knows that it will be hate spread here.

Sometimes the few can destroy for the many. It is shameful to keep on bully people.
(sorry for my rant)

I REALLY feel that you should learn more about Islaam, lest you end up harming the expression of your intention of Right Speech.

You view is so idealized that it probably never resembled anything that actually existed, or could ever exist.

More pragmatically, I don't think that it is a good practice to automatically criticize any questioning of Islaam's merits as presumed religion.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I REALLY feel that you should learn more about Islaam, lest you end up harming the expression of your intention of Right Speech.

You view is so idealized that it probably never resembled anything that actually existed, or could ever exist.

More pragmatically, I don't think that it is a good practice to automatically criticize any questioning of Islaam's merits as presumed religion.

ok, Thank you

 

[oldbadger]

My definition of adultery is sex with at least one person being married.
But in the Islamic world that is not the right definition.
Zina is the word used and it involves adultery, fornication and any kind of sexual activity outside of marriage.
That's why I defined it the Islamic way, in short sex outside of marriage.
I already said in a previous post (#19) how I would answer my own question.
The problem is that if I answer it using Islamic laws in mind I don't see justice accomplished.
An adulterer never gets punished unless he or she confesses.
The rules on adultery were created by Allah.
How can they be that bad?

No Rayman.
You told how you would react if you were a Muslim.

You clearly have a problem with how Muslims cope with adultery, etc.

However, I am glad that you don't have enough witnesses because killing women by stoning is not my idea of justice, gender equality, humanity etc.

If I found my wife copulating with a man I would sit down, in fact I would ask her if she was ok. If she replied 'yes' then my life as I know it now would be over. If she replied 'no' then I would attack the man and subdue him for the police to take away.

But in any event or reply I would acknowledge the answer and then consider how I could move forward. My wife would not have committed any crime, though. Busting a husband's heart by adultery is not a crime

 

[Epic Beard Man]

This is interesting, it says "their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times".
What does that mean?

It means if I'm not mistaken you're literally swearing to God himself.

Zina is the word used and it involves adultery, fornication and any kind of sexual activity outside of marriage.

This is wrong. This is why I said you need to use google. This is not the definition of Zina.

"Zināʾ (زِنَاء) or zina (زِنًى or زِنًا) is an Islamic law concerning unlawful sexual relations between male and female who are not married to one another through a nikah. It includes extramarital sex and premarital sex."

Zina - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zina

"Unlawful sexual intercourse; fornication or adultery."

Zina - Oxford Islamic Studies Online


"Zina means fornication and adultery, and it is considered a major sin in Islam. Fornication is the sexual intercourse that takes place between two people who are not married to each other, and adultery is sexual intercourse between two people, one or both of which are married, but not married to their co-adulterer."

What is Zina in Islam?



So you just got three definitions from three different websites. Zina implies sexual intercourse between two people without a Nikah or a temporary marriage (which is also controversial among Muslim scholars). Since there is no boyfriend or girlfriend in Islam if a man has sex with another woman and both are unmarried they are committing Zina. If they are both married and the man or woman is having sex outside that marriage they're committing Zina, you get it now?

The problem is that if I answer it using Islamic laws in mind I don't see justice accomplished.

What justice are you referring to?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

That's the point, at least 4 witnesses are required.

This is not entirely true. Depending on the fiqh a jurist subscribes to, this may or may not be the case. Remember, Zina is not simply just sex, kissing is also considered a part of the definition of Zina as well other acts that have expounded the definition however since Zina is a Hudud sin, it depends on how the jurists interpret it:

"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle as saying: “Allah has decreed for every son of Adam his share of zina, which he will inevitably commit. The zina of the eyes is looking, the zina of the tongue is speaking, one may wish and desire, and the private parts confirm that or deny it.”

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 8:77:609, Sahih Muslim, 33:6421

Not only that, they have to be men.

Where does it say that specifically four men?

Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sa’di said in his Tafseer (1/563):

“Why did they not produce four witnesses?” [al-Noor 24:13], i.e., why did the accusers not bring witnesses to the things they accused them of? “four witnesses” i.e., of good character. “Since they (the slanderers) have not produced witnesses! Then with Allaah they are the liars” – even if they are certain about that in themselves, they are liars in Allaah’s judgement, because Allaah has forbidden them to speak of that without four witnesses. Hence Allaah says: “Then with Allaah they are the liars”, and He did not say “Then they are the liars”. All of this points to the grave sanctity of the Muslim’s honour, so it is not permissible to make accusations against it without establishing testimony."

The witnesses have to be of upright character does not specifically mention only male or female.

Not only that, they have to have seen the actual penetration.

It doesn't say that, now you're making up s*****. Quite obviously when one cheats it's (more than likely) in the confines of privacy which is why the accusation of Zina is very serious because the Qur'an specifically warns against falsely accusing someone of a sinful act.

 

[sealchan]

This is the scenario:
You get home and find your wife having sex with another man.
You are the only witness.

This would be a case of adultery according to Islam. A man and a woman having sex outside of marriage.
The problem is that following strict Islamic rules adultery is very difficult to prove.
You need four men witnesses of upright character (sinless)
Those witnesses have to actually see the penetration before making any accusation.
Those who make accusations without the required conditions are actually penalized for it.

How does this accomplish justice?
What would a husband do in this situation?
What would any Muslim do in this situation?

Take a picture?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Maybe I can help the conversation on.

(attempting to describe the very likely argument of the OP from their point of view)

• It makes no sense a husband can't get the officials to punish his wife by telling them to.
• It is "absolutely certain" that Aisha committed adultery because...
• The prophet Muhammad saws waited for one month (not suffient to verify absence of pregnancy according to the Quran) to know Aisha was not pregnant with the man she committed adultery with
• obviously the Prophet Muhammad saws wasn't having sex with his wife Aisha because ....and they couldn't have had children because....
  
• He invented the stoning verse to protect his ego
• The entire Qur'an was written by Prophet Muhammad saws himself
  
• The reason he knew about the beginning and the end of world is that he was a traveller... Here and there..

This didn’t help the conversation this is just a ridiculous attempt to impart your own baseless uneducated and nonsensical claims.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I REALLY feel that you should learn more about Islaam,

This is rich coming from you. You have no room to talk about having knowledge on Islam.

 

[Wasp]

This didn’t help the conversation this is just a ridiculous attempt to impart your own baseless uneducated and nonsensical claims.

It is what the op is getting at... He's been talking about it for a long time. Refute as much as you like. It will lead to nowhere. Apologies for the interruption though, I didn't think it'd be a nuisance. I'll take my baseless, uneducated and nonsensical claims elsewhere.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This is the scenario:
You get home and find your wife having sex with another man.
You are the only witness.

This would be a case of adultery according to Islam. A man and a woman having sex outside of marriage.
The problem is that following strict Islamic rules adultery is very difficult to prove.
You need four men witnesses of upright character (sinless)
Those witnesses have to actually see the penetration before making any accusation.
Those who make accusations without the required conditions are actually penalized for it.

How does this accomplish justice?
What would a husband do in this situation?
What would any Muslim do in this situation?

The Qu'ran says I can lightly beat my wife as her accuser, though.

 

[Raymann]

Raymann said: ↑
Zina is the word used and it involves adultery, fornication and any kind of sexual activity outside of marriage.

This is wrong. This is why I said you need to use google. This is not the definition of Zina.
...

So you just got three definitions from three different websites. Zina implies sexual intercourse between two people without a Nikah or a temporary marriage (which is also controversial among Muslim scholars). Since there is no boyfriend or girlfriend in Islam if a man has sex with another woman and both are unmarried they are committing Zina. If they are both married and the man or woman is having sex outside that marriage they're committing Zina, you get it now?

That's exactly what I said. Read it again.
Maybe I should rephrase it for you.
What I said is exactly what you showed in the definitions.
We agree with the definition despite the fact you didn't understand the way I said it.