Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[KWED]

I have objective facts about Baha'u'llah, that is what I have. I just posted this video to an atheist on another forum when he said I have no facts. It is only 10 minutes long.

There is absolutely nothing in that video that substantiates any of his claims to be a messenger of a god, or that any such god exists. It is merely the story of a person's life.

 

[KWED]

I’m sorry if that was your experience. But don’t assume it’s universal. Some people love and respect their parents, and are grateful for the guidance and support they received growing up.

I like Louis Armstrong as much as my granddad did btw. And my son likes Led Zeppelin and The Doors as much as I do. That’s not indoctrination; that’s an inheritance worth more than gold.

No need to apologise.
The proportion of children who're into the music of their parents is very small. That's how adolescence usually works, they dismiss it by default. That is the experience of most people. As they grow older and their taste matures they will often revisit the music of previous generations with fresh ears.

I accept that there are some children who never rebel and who don't want to stray from their parents' shadow, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[KWED]

That makes no sense to me.
Why would belief come naturally if a false messenger presented his case in a way someone finds reasonable, logical, and truthful?

You answered your own question there.

 

[RestlessSoul]

No need to apologise.
The proportion of children who're into the music of their parents is very small. That's how adolescence usually works, they dismiss it by default. That is the experience of most people. As they grow older and their taste matures they will often revisit the music of previous generations with fresh ears.

I accept that there are some children who never rebel and who don't want to stray from their parents' shadow, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Yes, it’s the norm to rebel against anyone and everything during adolescence. After that, it’s time to grow up a bit. Western society does seem stuck in perpetual adolescence, maybe that’s the root of all our problems.

 

[muhammad_isa]

By "core beliefs" do you mean what individuals have been told about their religion, or what scripture actually says?

Well, first of all, the main belief is in One G-d who created the universe.
That is the most basic core belief.

Then, as you know, we have divergence in the form of the nature of Jesus.
Nevertheless, the OT is in the Bible and includes the ten commandments. These commandments are taken seriously by most Christians.

..so I suppose what I mean is that a creed that deviates wildly from the basics is best to steer clear of.

List of new religious movements - Wikipedia

The above shows us just how many people claim that they are "the truth and the way".
That is what I mean by cults.

 

[KWED]

Yes, it’s the norm to rebel against anyone and everything during adolescence.

So you agree with my initial point then.

After that, it’s time to grow up a bit.

Indeed. And that is what usually happens.

Western society does seem stuck in perpetual adolescence, maybe that’s the root of all our problems.

In what way? And how does "Eastern society" differ?

 

[KWED]

Well, first of all, the main belief is in One G-d who created the universe.
That is the most basic core belief.

Unless you are a polytheist or pantheist of course.

Then, as you know, we have divergence in the form of the nature of Jesus.
Nevertheless, the OT is in the Bible and includes the ten commandments. These commandments are taken seriously by most Christians.

..so I suppose what I mean is that a creed that deviates wildly from the basics is best to steer clear of.

So you believe that people should adhere strictly to everything in their religion's scripture rather than editing, revising or modernising its contents to suit a changing world?

ist of new religious movements - Wikipedia

The above shows us just how many people claim that they are "the truth and the way".
That is what I mean by cults.

You do realise that for the first 10 years or so, Islam was a cult led by someone claiming to be "the truth and the way". The majority took your position that we should avoid such cults. Now you are a follower yourself. Oh, the irony.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You do realise that for the first 10 years or so, Islam was a cult led by someone claiming to be "the truth and the way". The majority took your position that we should avoid such cults. Now you are a follower yourself.

People are free to follow what they like.
I am not suggesting that people should be persecuted for their beliefs, unless they are breaking the law.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. My experience tells me that it is not a good idea to "eat something" that is not kosher.

 

[RestlessSoul]

So you agree with my initial point then.

Indeed. And that is what usually happens.

In what way? And how does "Eastern society" differ?

I can’t speak for the East. Perhaps one of our Indian members can, @Aupmanyav perhaps. But the West seems to be in permanent crisis; perhaps it’s always been that way.

In the decades after WWII, Western Europe and America enjoyed a period of unprecedented material wealth and personal liberty. It’s impossible to emphasis strongly enough, how much this period of affluence and opportunity stands out against all of human history. Yet the happiness, peace of mind, and general well being of the general population did not appear to increase markedly, however.

And now inequality is once again increasing exponentially, divisions are widening, tensions are bubbling to the surface. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

 

[KWED]

People are free to follow what they like.

Once again, you are ignoring the fact that god interferes in people's ability to follow what they like. It is clearly stated in the Quran and confirmed by scholars. And yet you keep ignoring this and repeating "BuT wE HaVe FrEe WiLl!1!"
"Whoever Allah leads astray, none can guide"
"Surely we have created many of mankind for hell".

I am not suggesting that people should be persecuted for their beliefs,

So you think Allah is wrong to persecute people for their religious beliefs.

unless they are breaking the law.

Then they are not "persecuted for their beliefs". They are punished for breaking the law. Two quite different things.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. My experience tells me that it is not a good idea to "eat something" that is not kosher.

And what happened when you ate some terefah food? What was the "experience" that persuaded you to only eat kosher from then on?

BTW, you do realise that eating kosher food is a sin for a Muslim (unless they are going to starve)?

 

[KWED]

I can’t speak for the East. Perhaps one of our Indian members can, @Aupmanyav perhaps. But the West seems to be in permanent crisis; perhaps it’s always been that way.

India isn't "the East", it is referred to as "South Asia".
But anyway, you accept that singling out "the West" (wherever that is) was unjustified. I suspect you are using it as shorthand for "North America and NW Europe", and I couldn't say they are "in permanent crisis".

In the decades after WWII, Western Europe and America enjoyed a period of unprecedented material wealth and personal liberty. It’s impossible to emphasis strongly enough, how much this period of affluence and opportunity stands out against all of human history. Yet the happiness, peace of mind, and general well being of the general population did not appear to increase markedly, however.

And now inequality is once again increasing exponentially, divisions are widening, tensions are bubbling to the surface. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Developed nations are generally better in terms of health, welfare, safety, standard of living, etc, than they have ever been.
The reason for the current problems is essentially that most people are credulous idiots and will often vote for governments that will work against their interests.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In what way? And how does "Eastern society" differ?

If I could say - East takes changes in its stride. Perhaps It is more mature.

 

[KWED]

If I could say - East takes changes in its stride. Perhaps It is more mature.

Not sure about that. "Tradition" often seems far more important in "Eastern" culture than "Western". The western developed nations are constantly adapting to and accepting change. In fact it is sometimes levelled as a criticism.

Not sure how one would gauge a country or culture's "maturity". Rejecting superstition and embracing equality, tolerance and universal welfare would be one way, imho.

 

[Kfox]

That makes no sense to me. Why would belief come naturally if a false messenger presented his case in a way someone finds reasonable, logical, and truthful?

Because when that happens, the false message sounds like the truth to them. You could be believing the false message; if you were you just wouldn’t know it.

Everyone has access to information about Baha'u'llah on the internet although they might not know about Him. If they did not know about Him that would not be their fault and God will not hold them accountable for not believing.

So you now admit it isn’t always their fault?

I guess you missed my point. A real God can never need any excuses because He is infallible. That means that any god you imagine that needs excuses is imaginary (does not exist).

The God I believe in is not imaginary, He is real, so He needs no excuses.

Then perhaps you should quit making excuses for him about why he refuses to come out of hiding and communicate with each of us in a way that we can recognize and understand.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is clearly stated in the Quran and confirmed by scholars..

Nonsense.
Muslim scholars teach that we have free-will.

You insist that atheists are not free to choose, which is the wrong interpretation.
Why do you keep repeating one verse continually, while ignoring others?

How do you explain an atheist who changes their mind?
Simply, it is what you claim it means, and makes no sense.

You can change your mind if you want to, but while you don't want to "Allah is misguiding you"

 

[RestlessSoul]

If I could say - East takes changes in its stride. Perhaps It is more mature.

Yes, perhaps so. Maybe the Ganges sets the pace for India. In Europe we are always rushing, always erupting into violent upheaval

 

[RestlessSoul]

Developed nations are generally better in terms of health, welfare, safety, standard of living, etc, than they have ever been.

And yet the people seem no happier.

Whereas Africa and the Caribbean, for example, smiles seem to come easily, though life is often hard.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Tradition" often seems far more important in "Eastern" culture than "Western".

IMHO, tradition has its own role. It does not let changes rock the boat.

 

[KWED]

And yet the people seem no happier.
Whereas Africa and the Caribbean, for example, smiles seem to come easily, though life is often hard.

So you started with the west is in permanent adolescence. Then it was in permanent crisis. Then it was always erupting in violent upheaval. Now everyone is unhappy compared to the jolly smiling Black people, happy with their lot (you sound awfully like Boris Johnson and earlier colonialists there).
No wonder Europe is a smoking , dystopian ruin populated by the miserable, terrified and destitute!
Oh...
Up to your usual standard of reason and evidence-free debate, I see.

 

[RestlessSoul]

So you started with the west is in permanent adolescence. Then it was in permanent crisis. Then it was always erupting in violent upheaval. Now everyone is unhappy compared to the jolly smiling Black people, happy with their lot (you sound awfully like Boris Johnson and earlier colonialists there).
No wonder Europe is a smoking , dystopian ruin populated by the miserable, terrified and destitute!
Oh...
Up to your usual standard of reason and evidence-free debate, I see.

You seem determined to illustrate my point, regarding unhappy westerners. What is the cause of your apparently permanent outrage? Why do you keep erupting in violent emotional upheaval?