Baha'i and Messengers

[Sundance]

Then I repeat that the claimed not-literal number is is few in comparison to the billions of humans who have lived.

This argument is fallacious. You suppose that the number of Messengers and other Holy Teachers is (or ought to be) directly proportional to the number of human beings. This is not an accurate reflection of many realities in our world.


It would be equivalent to suggesting that because our solar system has eight (or nine, depending on whether astronomers can settle on what Pluto is), each planet ought to have its own Sun. Or that because there are 320, 330 million US Americans, there ought to be 320, 330 million senators or representatives in the House.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why not? He can create an entire universe from nothing. Makes no sense.

If God became flesh then God would not be God, God would be a man.
God by definition is not a man so God cannot become a man.
This is logic 101 stuff.

 

[CG Didymus]

This is not true. According to the Bahá’í Teachings, there have been (theoretically speaking) countless Messengers and Books that have come and will continue to in the distant future. We just have records of a few. On top of this, other holy Teachers, philosophers, and sacred souls — along with various other Books — have been written about God and how to know Him. I classify this threefold: Revelation, Inspiration, and Individual Experience.


Are you asking whether God can be experienced by every person? If so, I would say so, in many different ways. Though, the truth of it can absolutely be difficult to discern at times. If you’re asking if God can make every single person a Messenger, He coooould, but what fun would that be? It’s comparable to every person being a musician. If every person’s a musician, who’s doing the listening and audio enjoying?

Well supposedly God is going to make so everybody knows him. And it would be nice if God did at least whisper into everybody's ear what the truth is. Instead, we have people believing in different versions of God, different versions of God's truth and laws, and some people not believing that God is even real. If God can make these special "manifestation" people, then he can make a more spiritual type of person that hears him and listens to him and obeys him. And isn't that what eventually is going to happen? So, why put people through all the pain and suffering that he has allowed all these years? And has it been "fun"? If so, why do Baha'is want to get all of us believing in One God, one people and one religion? Why not keep the "fun" going and let's keep people fighting and arguing over what the truth is?

Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
11No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
​

 

[Audie]

Indeed. I began as a believer. And even after I you deconverted, I approached my investigation of other religions with the explicit assumption that was missing something.

Grew up in atheist home where we did
Christmas, had a kitchen god statue and
made offerings to ancestors. Why not?

Christianity seemed very alien and weird.
Plus no dragons.

 

[ppp]

This argument is fallacious. You suppose that the number of Messengers and other Holy Teachers is (or ought to be) directly proportional to the number of human beings. This is not an accurate reflection of many realities in our world.


It would be equivalent to suggesting that because our solar system has eight (or nine, depending on whether astronomers can settle on what Pluto is), each planet ought to have its own Sun. Or that because there are 320, 330 million US Americans, there ought to be 320, 330 million senators or representatives in the House.

I neither said nor implied anything about oughts. And if you have no conception of the actual "countless" number, I don't see how you can tell me that I'm wrong. You can't tell me that you don't know the answer and then tell me I'm wrong.

Well, you can. But that would be unreasonable..

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes it is a great gift.

especially when used properly.

 

[Trailblazer]

Grew up in atheist home

Christianity seemed very alien and weird.

Same here.

 

[ppp]

.

BTW,
Is the Baha'i god incapable of making everyone a messenger? Or simply unwilling?

 

[ppp]

Grew up in atheist home where we did
Christmas, had a kitchen god statue and
made offerings to ancestors. Why not?

Christianity seemed very alien and weird.
Plus no dragons.

Now I retroactively want a Christmas dragon!

 

[Sundance]

I neither said nor implied anything about oughts. And if you have no conception of the actual "countless" number, I don't see how you can tell me that I'm wrong. You can't tell me that you don't know the answer and then tell me I'm wrong.

Well, you can. But that would be unreasonable..

Actually, it wouldn’t, because of the aforementioned implication.

And there doesn’t have to be an exact number communicated from the expression or anything else. It could be any number in the world. That’s not the point. The fundamental point is that many Messengers have come before now and they will continue to after. That you nitpick at something, really, inconsequential, I don’t know what else I can say honestly.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thanks. Looking back, it was a bit of an overreaction on my part. Are people interested in learning about Hinduism going to ask Hindus, go to a Hindu temple, or are they going to look up some small barely alive faith, and ask them about Hindus? Looking at it from that perspective. we barely need to stand up and correct the misconceptions. Over on another large forum, the Hinduism section has 100 000 members. But yes, I suppose it did help a few people, mostly non-Bahai' like yourself.

I will be taking another breather from this. It always leads nowhere. Just when you think you've convinced somebody of the inaccuracy portrayed, they prove you wrong, by reiterating the same old party line of Krishna being a prophet, the founder of Hinduism.

Carry on. I have many preparations to do today for a festival. Thank God for Columbian flower growers.

Thanks, I always appreciate the things you have to say.

 

[KWED]

Firstly interpretation is not in a way that suits me. As a Bahai I can only offer what has been interpreted by either Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha. Otherwise I would offer it is my opinion.

Ye gods! This is crazy talk.

1. I quoted Bahaullah and Abdulbaha's explanations of predestination.
2. You said that you wouldn't interpret it that way.
3. I asked you how you would interpret it.
4. You said that you would always defer to Bahaullah and Abdulbaha's explanation.
1. I quote Bahaullah and Abdulbaha's explanations of predestination.
2....
And so on.
Simply mind boggling.

Our destiny in life is changeable by our choices and we have up to our last breath to make those choices.

**** me, this is beyond.
Baha and Abdul both say, clearly and unequivocally, that god predetermines certain events in our lives which cannot be altered or avoided.

That God knows the choices we made, does not mean they were not our choices.

Once again, this is not about infallible omniscience, this is about predestination.
Please try and address the points I raised, not the ones you want to answer.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Apparently not, since you just admitted you don't have it.

It is my free will to submit to their wisdom, that is far above my own.

Regards Tony

 

[Sundance]

Well supposedly God is going to make so everybody knows him. And it would be nice if God did at least whisper into everybody's ear what the truth is. Instead, we have people believing in different versions of God, different versions of God's truth and laws, and some people not believing that God is even real. If God can make these special "manifestation" people, then he can make a more spiritual type of person that hears him and listens to him and obeys him. And isn't that what eventually is going to happen? So, why put people through all the pain and suffering that he has allowed all these years? And has it been "fun"? If so, why do Baha'is want to get all of us believing in One God, one people and one religion? Why not keep the "fun" going and let's keep people fighting and arguing over what the truth is?

Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
11No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
​

As far as God making Himself known to people, and why people have various conceptions of the divine and of Higher Law, my understanding is that it’s ordained of God. God made each and every one of us with that capacity to know about Him.

To take the aforementioned school analogy a different route, every religion is like a different subject in school. Different religions have overlapping points, and distinguishing differences. People are drawn to various ones for various reasons, just like kids have different likes and interests and strengths.

Human beings have to examine their own hearts and minds whether we want to continue down the individual or collective path to oblivion or to enter into a Day of Peace. Neither God or any Messenger can make that choice for us. Most kinds of pain of suffering are the products of this. People choose to inflict pain and suffering on others, people choose to allow petty differences in all kinds of things to create discord where there should be harmony.

Bahá’ís teach about the Unity of God, of Religion, and of Humankind as fundamental points of belief. That’s all. We’re not forcing our understandings of anything onto people. In spite of certain misunderstandings thrown as to what we mean by these, if you believe differently, it’s not like we’re gonna come knocking down your door. We can hash out our disagreements in a spirit of humility and sincere curiosity. I don’t mean just people who aren’t Bahá’ís, but we Bahá’ís could learn this more as well. Just because we have our differences doesn’t mean that we can learn how to appreciate those and still learn more about what it is our neighbors believe and live in harmony, or at least be respectful and open-minded.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ye gods! This is crazy talk.

Great then let's stop.

I will continue with my crazy and you with yours.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As far as God making Himself known to people, and why people have various conceptions of the divine and of Higher Law, my understanding is that it’s ordained of God. God made each and every one of us with that capacity to know about Him.

To take the aforementioned school analogy a different route, every religion is like a different subject in school. Different religions have overlapping points, and distinguishing differences. People are drawn to various ones for various reasons, just like kids have different likes and interests and strengths.

Human beings have to examine their own hearts and minds whether we want to continue down the individual or collective path to oblivion or to enter into a Day of Peace. Neither God or any Messenger can make that choice for us. Most kinds of pain of suffering are the products of this. People choose to inflict pain and suffering on others, people choose to allow petty differences in all kinds of things to create discord where there should be harmony.

Bahá’ís teach about the Unity of God, of Religion, and of Humankind as fundamental points of belief. That’s all. We’re not forcing our understandings of anything onto people. In spite of certain misunderstandings thrown as to what we mean by these, if you believe differently, it’s not like we’re gonna come knocking down your door. We can hash out our disagreements in a spirit of humility and sincere curiosity. I don’t mean just people who aren’t Bahá’ís, but we Bahá’ís could learn this more as well Just because we have our differences doesn’t mean that we can learn how to appreciate those and still learn more about what it is our neighbors believe and live in harmony, or at least be respectful and open-minded.

I appreciate that was well said.

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

I see people have been showing other people since records began.

The light that is God is reflected from these chosen Prophets/Messengers, it does not descend into them, when we look at them we see a man like us, or we see the 'Self of God', the light of the attributes shining in front of us, a perfect reflection of Gods Attributes.

To name a few, Abraham, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

Just more question begging nonsense.
God cannot be independently detected and verified by a number of reliable processes.
And if there is no evidence that any god exists, anyone claiming to be god's messenger should be treated with extreme scepticism.
As we know that elements of the Abrahamic narrative are simply ancient myth made up by men, anyone insisting that they are real can be dismissed as dishonest or delusional.

 

[KWED]

Great then let's stop.

I will continue with my crazy and you with yours.

Regards Tony

Well, at least you admit you're talking nonsense, as illustrated by my example.
I'm grateful that you haven't insisted on another round of meaningless claims as it saves me having to reftse them all over again.
Good night and good luck.

 

[KWED]

That's true. You cannot open your heart to an entity that you don't believe exists...
That'd be like asking me to open my heart to pink unicorns living in my garage.

Bingo! You've finally got it.
Your god and the claims of his "messengers" are as plausible to me as the pink unicorns in your garage are to you.

Now, do you accept that you can't see the unicorns because you aren't looking for them sincerely with an open heart? Or is it because they aren't there?

 

[ppp]

That’s not the point. The fundamental point is that many Messengers have come before now and they will continue to after. That you nitpick at something, really, inconsequential, I don’t know what else I can say honestly.

Hey, you are the one who nitpicked on the word "few," Instead of responding to the question posed in the OP. I just responded to that nit-pick.