Baha'i and Messengers

[KWED]

He was just expressing his views nothing to do with the Baha’i Faith.

So why cite it as independent support for the truth of Bahai'ism?

 

[KWED]

What do you think? I wonder what would happen if we didn’t die in this world. what would the population be and how would we deal with more people than we have space for. I think that this is just a stopover for us to learn before we move on to higher forms of life.

Er, what?
Why have you suddenly brought immortality into a discussion of free will vs predestination?

 

[Vinayaka]

Someone on here (Trailblazer) claimed they knew Baha'i was the truth because they had done independent research. When I pressed for the sources for this "research', I was shown a propaganda piece written by a Baha'i writer.

Yep. 'Independent research' is code for anything written by Baha'is. If you stick around with the discussion long enough, you'll learn more Bahaispeak, like 'sharing' is code for proselytising, and 'pioneer' is code for missionary. I was full on in the discussion about 6 years back, but have since only stuck my nose in the door on rare occasion, like the last couple of days.

Carry on.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The deity depicted in the bible seems like a bumbling incompetent if you ask me.

Agreed. We should ask ourselves what it means that it would be depicted in such a cruel and incompetent way with the global flood story. Here's a story inserted into scripture of a deity that, while described as perfect, is also described as having made a mistake creating man that it regrets and wants to rectify, which it does with a global flood rather than just fold its arms and twitch its nose and rewrite the software, which of course kills indiscriminately, and in a particularly slow, cruel, and terrifying way. Then, it uses the same breeding stock to repopulate the earth. Why would anybody tell that story about a deity that they also claim is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent?

I think that I have a good idea why a story like that appears in scripture. I think it begins with discovering marine fossils on mountaintops. Think about what that must have meant to those people. Unaware of orogeny and seafloor uplift, the only possible explanation is that the water rose high enough to cover all of the mountains, hence the idea of a global flood. How did this happen? It must have been God that did it, so this was God's will. But God is good, therefore this must have been a deserved punishment for some offense of mankind. How else are we to reconcile marine fossils in mountains in a world run by a good and loving God?

It's recurring theme in the scriptures: bad thing that happen to humanity must be man's fault. Why does man have to scour the earth laboring for food in a difficult life where women suffer in childbirth and life is short and brutal despite a loving tri-omni God? Man must have done something very bad to deserve that. So, the Garden Story was created, which also makes this deity look cruel and incompetent. Nothing ever goes as it intended.

The Jerry Garcia Band did a song called Gomorrah. The opening verse is:

Just a song of Gomorrah
I wonder what they did there
Must've been a bad thing
To get shot down for

There's that thinking. Two towns are destroyed, it must have been God that did or allowed it, so they must have deserved it.

I do not believe for a second humans are animals.

You are using a religious definition, one that attempts to separate man from the other animals by fiat. Man fits the scientific definition of an animal. He also fits the scientific definition of a living organism and a eukaryote, of a vertebrate, mammal, primate and ape as well. Man is all of those things.

I am not going to reply anymore to comments made in ill will toward religion.

Why do these decisions only come from the faithful? When has a secular humanist ever posted that he is withdrawing from RF or blocking a given theist because he doesn't like the answers he's getting? Why do they frame unbelievers as disruptive for disagreeing, when these unbelievers disagree with the unbelievers as well? Are they also being disruptive, or is it only when skeptics express a dissenting opinion that dissent is disruptive?

I think the problem is that many theists are not used to being questioned, and are unfamiliar with the standards of critical thought. They object to being subject to it, and see that as malicious attack.

I just dont need atheists to tell me what I can or can not believe in. Or should or should not believe in.

They don't. That's a fiction of your imagination. They tell you what they can and cannot believe, and why. You hear that as attack and as instructions what you ought to think. How many times have I alone told you that I don't care what anybody else believes. I've said repeatedly that if my neighbor wants to dance around a tree in his back yard at midnight baying at the full moon while shaking a stick with a chicken claw nailed to it in order to center himself and give his like meaning, that's fine, as long as he keeps the noise down. I might ask him how he came to his beliefs, but I'm not going to argue with him about them, or try to change his mind. He'll likely sense that I don't agree, which he will likely understand as me telling him he's wrong or stupid as you do.

Atheists has nothing to give that is worth listen to when it comes to spiritual lifestyle.

You've got that backward. Your gurus have no answers, and you don't have a clear idea what it is you seek (calling it truth or enlightenment does nothing to answer that question), or how to find it, which is why you are still searching and always will be until you refocus your attention and understanding of what spirituality is. I've given you what I think is pretty good advice, but you didn't even acknowledge it much less ask questions or give counterarguments.

I've found what you are seeking. I found it a long time ago, early enough in my life to have benefitted from those answers. It's a bit like travel. If you do it, do it as young as possible so that the lessons learned will inform your choices for decades to come. Isn't the wisdom you seek something you want to find before age 70?

You have cut yourself off of what I considered excellent advice drawn from my own experiences because it came from a secular humanist, who you believe can have nothing of value to share with you on spirituality and achieving equanimity. If you even read it, there was no evidence of that from you. Too bad. I think your prejudices cost you there. But as I said, your beliefs are your business, and though I'd like to be helpful to you regarding them, I have no personal stake in the matter. Good luck.

I do not think any of the Atheist in this thread is here to learn

What do you have to teach? Go ahead and teach the atheists here something if you have anything to teach. I'd love to learn something from you.

This is what you don't like - being challenged. You want to be free to say derogatory things about others unchallenged. Good luck with that.

Prior knowledge of an event is not its cause.

Straw man. The claim is that perfect omniscience of the future is incompatible with free will. It is not necessary that the deity be both the knower and causer.

we aim to be godlike, or do we become lower then the animal with satanic choices?

We aim to be decent, informed people. Being godlike to me means taking responsibility for myself to be the best I can be. I recall driving the country roads of rural Missouri, and frequently encountering a turtle crossing the road. I would always pull over and hand carry it to the other side. At those moments, I felt a frisson pass over me, a connection to my world, and a godlike part to play in it. To @Seeker of White Light - this is where authentic spirituality resides. It's in the acts of daily life lived mindfully, in the sense of connection to the world, and of duty, and of benevolence. I think that you're looking in the wrong places and with the wrong idea of what authentic spirituality is. You find it with your eyes open to what is around you and discovering your part in it.

But heck, I'm just an atheist, and we know nada, right? Like I said, good luck with your pursuit of spirituality in your life. Hopefully, you will find something worthwhile, and soon enough to benefit. A good start would be to envision what kind of a person you want to be, and what kind of a life you want to lead in specific terms. What does an ideal day look and feel like?

 

[Vinayaka]

So Bahaullah, as a mortal, was in a position to say what God can and cannot do.

So Bahaullah was god in physical form, able to perform miracles that will leave no doubt about his identity and existence.
Cool!

So you know Bahaulla is god because Bahaullah told you he is.
That's about a circular as logic can get. Sorry.

He's also infallible because he said he was infallible. Think about it. How could an infallible person possibly lie about his own infallibility. That's just not possible because he's infallible.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hardly surprising that you choose to interpret those statements in a way that suits you.
However, it is clear and without ambiguity that some of god's decrees about our future life are fixed and unchangeable. Therefore god does indeed remove our free will in some circumstances - which is obviously a problem.

Those were explanations from Bahaullah and Abdulbaha.
Do we need them to explain their explanations now?

Firstly interpretation is not in a way that suits me. As a Bahai I can only offer what has been interpreted by either Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha.

Otherwise I would offer it is my opinion.

Death is unchangeable, all material beings have a life cycle and then disolve (yet via prayer can be unwisely hastened or delayed).

Our destiny in life is changeable by our choices and we have up to our last breath to make those choices. That God knows the choices we made, does not mean they were not our choices.

Thus we are accountable for all those choices and the opportunities we were given. Ho else can a person be judged, if we are not responsible for our choices?

We can logically see how mans justice is weakened by not being held accountable for poor choices, we see it all the time in courts around the world now.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But have we? Bahaullah and Abdulbaha themselves admit that we don't always have free will.
Why do you think god removes our free will in some instances?

You would have to quote what you think is not subject to a free will choice.

There are many Writings that cover this topic, that give a bigger picture.

As for the choice of Faith, that is a free will choice, but we may be bound in nature and nurture that have dulled our mind to accept we have that choice. That is why Baha'i education concentrates on the capacity of each child, it is constructed to enable them to be empowered to make their own well-informed choices.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ah, so your god has a physical presence that can be independently detected and verified by a number of reliable processes?
Cool. Show me!

I see people have been showing other people since records began.

The light that is God is reflected from these chosen Prophets/Messengers, it does not descend into them, when we look at them we see a man like us, or we see the 'Self of God', the light of the attributes shining in front of us, a perfect reflection of Gods Attributes.

To name a few, Abraham, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We aim to be decent, informed people. Being godlike to me means taking responsibility for myself to be the best I can be. I recall driving the country roads of rural Missouri, and frequently encountering a turtle crossing the road. I would always pull over and hand carry it to the other side. At those moments, I felt a frisson pass over me, a connection to my world, and a godlike part to play in it. To @Seeker of White Light - this is where authentic spirituality resides. It's in the acts of daily life lived mindfully, in the sense of connection to the world, and of duty, and of benevolence. I think that you're looking in the wrong places and with the wrong idea of what authentic spirituality is. You find it with your eyes open to what is around you and discovering your part in it.

But heck, I'm just an atheist, and we know nada, right? Like I said, good luck with your pursuit of spirituality in your life. Hopefully, you will find something worthwhile, and soon enough to benefit. A good start would be to envision what kind of a person you want to be, and what kind of a life you want to lead in specific terms. What does an ideal day look and feel like?

Well done that is also the aim of a person of Faith, that is to find all the good within and use it for the good of all people and the world we live in.

Yes the act is the reward, the lack of that act is our punishment.

It has always been offered that the kingdom of God (All the Attributes) is within all people.

All the best.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

He's also infallible because he said he was infallible. Think about it. How could an infallible person possibly lie about his own infallibility. That's just not possible because he's infallible.

Baha'u'llah offere this to such thoughts.

"Certain ones among you have said: ‘He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.' By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me. If this be My transgression, then I am truly the first of the transgressors."

We all get to choose, was Baha'u'llah the voice of God, or was Baha'u'llah a transgressor? We have been told via all religious scriptures to become wise in our choices and do not let our self dominate.

Regards Tony

 

[Audie]

But you can give that person a piece of your chocolate so they can also experience it.
You haven't quite got the hang of this analogy lark, have you?

I don't like perfume. It all smells awful to me.

What are the "spiritual senses", and how do you know we have them?
How do you know your "spiritual experience" is not just an internally produced delusion?
Remember that we know that the brain can produce false hallucinations and delusions that seem absolutely real to the subject.

Our "spiritual" friends have it backwards on
who is lacking, and what it is they lack.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So Bahaullah, as a mortal, was in a position to say what God can and cannot do

No, Baha'u'llah was born of the Holy Spirit, born a Manifestation of God. The Bible shows this in the story of the virgin birth.

We are born of the human Spirit and need faith to be born again into that spirit.

So you know Bahaulla is god because Bahaullah told you he is.
That's about a circular as logic can get. Sorry.

No, Baha'u'llah demonstrated his claim with his person, his life and the Message.

Yet I see there is no point expanding on that answer to these questions, as you are not really asking for the want of knowledge, but please correct me if I am wrong.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I think maybe some Christians might disagree. However what you're describing is clearly not an omnipotent deity.

"God cannot put in a personal appearance because God is not a person. God is Spirit."

Wrong. I am describing the omnipotent deity.
The omnipotent deity ONLY does what He chooses to do, not what some atheists expect Him to do.

The omnipotent deity chose to manifest Himself in the flesh when He sent Messengers so that is how He chose to "show up" and put in a personal appearance.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But you can give that person a piece of your chocolate so they can also experience it.
You haven't quite got the hang of this analogy lark, have you?

It was a good analogy, as everyone also has different tastes and each can not explain the taste until the other tries it, then it can be discussed.

Baha'u'llah was offered, you get to taste and make your choice, then we can discuss our taste on equal footing.

Remember to adequately describe the taste, one must really try to savour what they are partaking of.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

But you said messengers are God himself.

God manifested in the flesh, not God incarnated in the flesh.

 

[Sundance]

Is that not God's inefficiency? Made a bridge and it collapsed on the first trial. I am referring to Adam. His first product failed.
It is like a road constructed in India. When the minister went to inaugurate it by breaking a coconut (as Hindus are wont to do), instead of the coconut, the road broke down. See it here:
Road breaks but not coconut - Google Search

Well, not really. God gave Adam the choice. Adam made his own choice. God can’t be blamed for that.

As for that road breaking down in India, I’m not sure what caused it. These two situations are not the same at all.

 

[Sundance]

Huh? That can't be. There haven't been countless numbers of people who have lived on earth. What sort of "countless" are we talking about? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Millions? Tens of millions? Billions?

It’s not a literal number, but an expression denoting that there have been many Messengers and Books, and Teachers from the past, and will continue to be in the future.

 

[ppp]

It’s not a literal number, but an expression denoting that there have been many Messengers and Books, and Teachers from the past, and will continue to be in the future.

Then I repeat that the claimed not-literal number is is few in comparison to the billions of humans who have lived.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, that would make sense but Seeker of White Light said "Not every human has opened their heart enough to gain the wisdom to understand message from God or messengers"
which implies that in order to see the evidence one must first open one's heart to god, which is not possible if you believe god doesn't exist.

That's true. You cannot open your heart to an entity that you don't believe exists...
That'd be like asking me to open my heart to pink unicorns living in my garage.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But you said messengers are God himself. Bahaollah said many things, 17,000 'tablets' (sic!). He provided no evidence for what all he said. Talk, talk and talk.

God manifested in the flesh, not God incarnated in the flesh.

@Aupmanyav This is how.



So that is why their person, their life and the Message is the proof.

They reflect God, or they do not. Jesus said choose wisely, as many come in the name of God that are false, but the True will will know. If we are looking.

Reagan's Tony