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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

That happens with any recovery program. Good or bad. So you are now in effect admitting that AA may be a very bad recovery program.

That is not how one measures how good a program is. One measures it by results.
You can’t be serious in your thinking? And then you try to justify your view and project some false admission.
But again if you follow the recovery path that many have travelled successfully you will have a high rate of success.
If you follow a different path you probably will not succeed. This path is not the AA path that failed it was your own path that failed.
 
Yep. That was a coincidence. They happen all of the time. This is exactly the sort of prayer that was shown not to work with scientific studies on the efficacy of prayer When a proper study was done, that means a large study with many patients, not just with one, they found no effect. In fact if the patient knew that they were being prayed for, though this was just one of the studies, they did worse. But with many patients there was no trend when it came to prayer.

You are relying on one example. That is far too often just coincidence. By itself it is not evidence, it is merely an anecdote. To be evidence one needs to have a large body of data where both successes and failures are recorded. Your single example does not prove that prayer works any more than one single example of a person dying does not prove that prayer is harmful.
Give an example of those studies made to check if prayer really works.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Issac Newton got lots of things right, like when wrote Opticks saying that light is a particle. He wrote of light's transformation. However, other ideas from him do not go well after reviews/

But, how he managed to have his theories accepted?

Very simple. He was a huge dude with hands big and strong. When he finished his presentation, he asked if someone was in disagreement with his ideas. If someone didn't agree with him, then Newton showed his big fist against him. After that, everybody was in complete agreement with his theories.Bad tongues say he hit dudes in those conferences, and always got his ideas to be accepted.

With Einstein was something similar. A dude called Eddington was his fanatic, and made make ups to the plaques from the 1919 expeditions telescopes, in order to make Einstein's prediction to win against Newton's prediction.

When you review the history of science, you will find lots of corruption. Today, is still the same.

The beliefs of those two guys are also a concern.

But between both of them, Newton got right lots of his ideas, while Einstein doesn't go further than his photoelectric, because his relativity theories are just pure imaginations, not science at all. Definitively physical reality and the God don't accept his relativity theories.

You are very confused with the words genius and wise.

An abstract art dude can be a genius with his creations, but such won't make him wise.

Get it?
Wow! No, just no. Newton was tested and found to be right to the level that the technology of the time could determine. He was still right enough to get us to the Moon and back. Einstein's ideas have been tested and found to be right. That is why the ideas of those people are accepted and sometimes even revered. Did Newton's "big hands" help him with the acceptance of his alchemy? Not one bit.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Give an example of those studies made to check if prayer really works.
Not until you agree to learn the basics of science. Until then you are in no position to demand anything. At a certain point in a debate a person may have to prove that he is being an honest interlocutor for others to supply him with evidence on demand.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
There is only one reality, how people perceive it may vary, but reality does not. Some people perceive a flat earth as real, do you think that makes it real?
How would you know that? All you have is your perception of reality.
It could be totally wrong.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
When you offer a cogent response to something I've actually said, instead of shooting the messenger or offering irrelevant defensive platitudes, then I will give it due diligence. I have not yet seen a rational argument for an extant deity. Perhaps you have one you'd like to share?
Well, I'm trying to find a "clear, logical and convincing" to discuss.

Let's start all over again but limit it to one aspect and let's see if it demands a response.
 
Einstein's ideas have been tested and found to be right. .

Oh, yeah?

This topic is about, there is no evidence for God.

Now, I ask you, show me the evidence for time.

I will ask the same questions atheists do when is about God.

About time, where is it?

What is made of?

Have you detect it?

How do you know that exists?

If no evidence of its existence, why you believe it does?

Until time is detected with an instrument, shown to be physical existent, the whole theories saying that time flows and dilates are just beliefs.

Believing in those theories make them a religion, not science.

From now on, the religion of relativity must be included in these forums.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Oh, yeah?

This topic is about, there is no evidence for God.

Now, I ask you, show me the evidence for time.

I will ask the same questions atheists do when is about God.

About time, where is it?

What is made of?

Have you detect it?

How do you know that exists?

If no evidence of its existence, why you believe it does?

Until time is detected with an instrument, shown to be physical existent, the whole theories saying that time flows and dilates are just beliefs.

Believing in those theories make them a religion, not science.

From now on, the religion of relativity must be included in these forums.
Yes, and you started the derail.

I could show you "evidence for time". It would be on the same order as evidence for distance. But there is no reliable evidence for God.

Once again you do not understand the concept of evidence. I do love how scientific evidence is defined. Scientists have to properly define their terminology since to communicate clearly everyone has to be speaking the same language. Once you understand scientific evidence then other forms of evidence are more easily understood.

When you have claimed that there was no evidence for evolution not only did you demonstrate that you do not understand the concept of evidence. You also broke the Ninth Commandment. As a Christian you should be concerned about that.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The more empirical one is in his assessment of what is true about the world, the more his reality gravitates to a common reality that transcends culture, time, and place, and the better prepared he is to navigate that reality. If one is into mythopoieia (generating fictitious stories) and believing those stories, his reality as he understands it will be whatever he creates. It one is grounded in the application of reason to the evidence of the senses, he will discover the common reality and how it works. This is why there are over 40,000 denominations of Christianity alone, but only one periodic table of the elements. Only the latter is anchored to observation, and only the latter can be used to accurately predict outcomes.

And what reality is that? For most people it includes the existence of God(s).

Our common reality, the one that doesn't depend on belief, the one that contains the objects and processes that affect experience, the one discerned and tested empirically, the one those applying critical thought to the evidence of the senses discover, the one leading to the periodic table.

The god believers are numbered among the people in the 40,000 denominations of Christianity and countless other religions with mythologies, who create their reality from stories believed by faith rather than evidence. If you ask them about the nature of the gods they say they believe in, you'll see what I mean about them extemporizing as they go. We see it here on RF continually with the just-so apologetics generated ad hoc. No two have the same concept of God, because they feel free to just define gods into existence (see below).

You're trying to legislate reality with arbitrary definitions again. This definition does not establish that a deity exists or that it communicates with man. And it's not my definition. It doesn't describe reality, where people often claim that they get no message from a deity when they pray beyond an implied yes or no according to whether the wish in the prayer came true, but of course, that is also not a communication from a deity that likely doesn't exist.

And you do the exact same thing.

I'm not saying that reality is any particular way because of how I define reality, which is the domain of those objects and processes which interact with one another and can impress themselves on the senses. The qualities of reality are to be discovered. They cannot be defined into existence.

What you are doing is trying establish that something is a fact because of your definition. You wrote that, "Prayer by definition is a conversation with God. It's not a one way conversation" as if that made praying a two-way conversation. It doesn't.

Being a strict empiricist, I let the evidence of the senses reveal reality for me, not definitions or other pronouncements not derived empirically. They reveal nothing except an opinion, in this case, one I don't share. I can see what praying is with my senses, and it is not a conversation. It's a monolog. It doesn't become a dialog because someone defines it as such. Look at a prayer. Compare it a telephone call in which one speaks with the other party and a one in which one leaves a message. Only the first is conversation.

This has been a nice example of the different realities one sees according to whether he is observing it or defining it by fiat. You asked above "what reality is that." It's the reality that is apprehensible and comprehensible to the critical thinker, the phenomena of consciousness that can be ordered in a way that allows one to understand it sufficiently to successfully predict outcomes and subsequent conscious phenomena.
 
Yes, and you started the derail.

I could show you "evidence for time". It would be on the same order as evidence for distance.

It happens that distance won't dilate if you go fast or slow. So your argument is invalid.

But there is no reliable evidence for God.
It doesn't have to, it's about faith.

Once again you do not understand the concept of evidence. I do love how scientific evidence is defined. Scientists have to properly define their terminology since to communicate clearly everyone has to be speaking the same language. Once you understand scientific evidence then other forms of evidence are more easily understood.

Wow, so you say you must have to learn deep science in order to understand what evidence is.

When you have claimed that there was no evidence for evolution not only did you demonstrate that you do not understand the concept of evidence. You also broke the Ninth Commandment. As a Christian you should be concerned about that.

The new evolution theory claims that changes in species have no arrow, that are disparate without a path to follow.

Such is their new statement.

Well, they are dead wrong. The changes in all species do have an arrow.

You don't know about it, because you just follow the doctrines of that good for nothing theory.

But, if you really stop repeating their doctrines and think and look for the answer, you will find out that the evolution theory is still wrong regardless of the several changes evolutionists have made to keep it alive.

I do have the evidence, and anyone can find it as I did. But to get it, you must think and look for it.

I won't show you the evidence for free, evolutionists made millions of dollars telling you lies, so, with that scenario don't expect the right answer for free. Forget about it.

It is amazing how atheists prefer to believe in pseudoscience rather than believe in the creator of heavens and earth. I guess pseudoscience is more attracted to them, even when those theories have no evidence to validate them.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Issac Newton got lots of things right, like when wrote Opticks saying that light is a particle. He wrote of light's transformation. However, other ideas from him do not go well after reviews/

But, how he managed to have his theories accepted?

The methods of science.

Very simple. He was a huge dude with hands big and strong. When he finished his presentation, he asked if someone was in disagreement with his ideas. If someone didn't agree with him, then Newton showed his big fist against him. After that, everybody was in complete agreement with his theories.Bad tongues say he hit dudes in those conferences, and always got his ideas to be accepted.

A badly managed attempt at levity?

With Einstein was something similar. A dude called Eddington was his fanatic, and made make ups to the plaques from the 1919 expeditions telescopes, in order to make Einstein's prediction to win against Newton's prediction.

When you review the history of science, you will find lots of corruption. Today, is still the same.

Wow, so that's a no then. :rolleyes:

The beliefs of those two guys are also a concern.

I already explained I don't care about their personal beliefs.

But between both of them, Newton got right lots of his ideas, while Einstein doesn't go further than his photoelectric, because his relativity theories are just pure imaginations, not science at all.

There seems to be a global scientific consensus that suggest your barking....well wrong then.

Definitively physical reality and the God don't accept his relativity theories.

Science doesn't validate ideas based on superstitious religious beliefs, luckily or we might well have been exchanging these messages on stone tablets.

You are very confused with the words genius and wise.

I think you may be projecting.

An abstract art dude can be a genius with his creations, but such won't make him wise.

Cool, but irrelevant, since I never claimed otherwise. So that's just a straw man fallacy.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It happens that distance won't dilate if you go fast or slow. So your argument is invalid.

Not true. It has been observed endlessly. Just because you can't observe it at speeds far below light speed does not mean that it does not happen

It doesn't have to, it's about faith.

Faith is your weakness. It is a falsehood and breaking the Ninth Commandment to claim that others have your weakness.

Wow, so you say you must have to learn deep science in order to understand what evidence is.



The new evolution theory claims that changes in species have no arrow, that are disparate without a path to follow.

Such is their new statement.

Well, they are dead wrong. The changes in all species do have an arrow.

You don't know about it, because you just follow the doctrines of that good for nothing theory.

But, if you really stop repeating their doctrines and think and look for the answer, you will find out that the evolution theory is still wrong regardless of the several changes evolutionists have made to keep it alive.

I do have the evidence, and anyone can find it as I did. But to get it, you must think and look for it.

I won't show you the evidence for free, evolutionists made millions of dollars telling you lies, so, with that scenario don't expect the right answer for free. Forget about it.

It is amazing how atheists prefer to believe in pseudoscience rather than believe in the creator of heavens and earth. I guess pseudoscience is more attracted to them, even when those theories have no evidence to validate them.
And once again you are so wrong that there is no point in discussing this.


If you want a serious discussion you need to at the very least learn what is and what is not evidence in the sciences and why.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
show me the evidence for time

Your comment is evidence that you experience time. You wrote it in our past, I am reading it in our present. Asking to be shown something implies a future and the existence of time, as does all action, as do all processes with distinct before and after states.

About time, where is it? What is made of?

Those are category errors. Time refers to the relationship between sequenced moments going from past to future through the present and the observable changes that transpire as time unfolds. Like space, force, and energy, it is everyplace. It lacks ubiety, "the property of having a definite location at a given time; the state of existing and being localized in space."

Have you detect it? How do you know that exists?

Yes, I 've detected it, and so have you. I am detecting it now. And now. And again.

Even in dreams, consciousness imposes a non-verbal "I am here now" on the conscious agent with an intuition of "was" and "will be" imposed, a sense of time passing from before to after, which can be experienced and measured in the apprehension of matter in motion: change.

"Kant tells us that space and time are the pure (a priori) forms of sensible intuition. Intuition is contrasted with the conceptualization (or categorization) performed by the understanding, and involves the way in which we passively receive data through sensibility."

Until time is detected with an instrument, shown to be physical existent, the whole theories saying that time flows and dilates are just beliefs.

If you're looking for a substance you can hold or weigh, you won't find that with time. Or space. That's also true with gods, and perhaps that's your point. But there is a big difference: Unlike many beliefs including religious beliefs, time (and space) can be measured, and belief in time is useful in predicting outcomes. That's what ties it to reality and the empirical experience of it. God beliefs don't do that, which is why gods, but not time, can be treated as nonexistent.

It happens that distance won't dilate if you go fast or slow. So your argument is invalid.

Oh yeah?

Length contraction - Wikipedia
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
But between both of them, Newton got right lots of his ideas, while Einstein doesn't go further than his photoelectric, because his relativity theories are just pure imaginations, not science at all. Definitively physical reality and the God don't accept his relativity theories.

Einstein did the photoelectric effect. He also described Brownian motion, which demonstrated the existence of atoms.

And, yes, he did both special and general relativity. And, far from being 'imaginations', special relativity is used for practical results e every day in particle accelerators. General relativity is used for GPS. And, yes, the 1919 eclipse trip had issues, but the gravitational lensing predicted by general relativity has been verified by later eclipses and other experiments.

Relativity is one of the better tested physical laws we have. It is even relevant for the photoelectric effect, not to mention Compton scattering (another effect on the particle aspect of light).

Your imagining of Newton having 'big fists' is rather wild given that Newton was actually very small in stature.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Sheldon said:
There is only one reality, how people perceive it may vary, but reality does not. Some people perceive a flat earth as real, do you think that makes it real?
How would you know that?

That there is only one reality? It's a defining characteristic.
All you have is your perception of reality.
It could be totally wrong.

I never said otherwise? In fact I'm pretty sure it can be inferred from my post.

Sheldon said:
There is only one reality, how people perceive it may vary, but reality does not. Some people perceive a flat earth as real, do you think that makes it real?

I've emboldened it for you, you understand I would represent a subset of "people" right?

So to recap, your claim:

Wildswanderer said:
And what reality is that? For most people it includes the existence of God(s).

Was flawed, since what people perceive need not reflect reality, and using the word most also suggested an argumentum ad populum fallacy.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Einstein did the photoelectric effect. He also described Brownian motion, which demonstrated the existence of atoms.

And, yes, he did both special and general relativity. And, far from being 'imaginations', special relativity is used for practical results e every day in particle accelerators. General relativity is used for GPS. And, yes, the 1919 eclipse trip had issues, but the gravitational lensing predicted by general relativity has been verified by later eclipses and other experiments.

Relativity is one of the better tested physical laws we have. It is even relevant for the photoelectric effect, not to mention Compton scattering (another effect on the particle aspect of light).

Your imagining of Newton having 'big fists' is rather wild given that Newton was actually very small in stature.

@Luchito Prays, would you like some aloe vera, that must have stung a bit?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
HERE is an article from 2006, outlining a double blind study on post op heart patients.

Some people have lost the right to demand evidence from me. If I feel like it I will provide them with evidence, but when they have shown that they will willingly make false statements about events I try to force them to learn what is and what is not evidence. That way they have to willingly lie to keep making their past claims about there being no evidence. I am pretty sure that deniers of reality know that they are wrong and that learning what is and what is not evidence would mean that they could no longer fool themselves. It is rather clear that they are not fooling anyone else.
 
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